[31817] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 3080 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Aug 17 06:09:19 2010
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 03:09:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 17 Aug 2010 Volume: 11 Number: 3080
Today's topics:
Re: combining hashes <xhoster@gmail.com>
Re: combining hashes <kst-u@mib.org>
Re: combining hashes <kst-u@mib.org>
Re: combining hashes <uri@StemSystems.com>
Re: combining hashes <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: combining hashes <ela@yantai.org>
Re: combining hashes <uri@StemSystems.com>
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Re: Why this warning? <mvdwege@mail.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:39:50 -0700
From: Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xhoster@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: combining hashes
Message-Id: <4c69ecd0$0$12714$ed362ca5@nr5-q3a.newsreader.com>
Sherm Pendley wrote:
> ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Let me recast my statement: the keys of a hash are ordered in the
>> sense that
>
> They're not ordered, in any sense.
Of course they are ordered in some senses. If you call my @x=keys
%hash, the keys will be returned in *some* order. Furthermore, if you
call values %hash, the without changing the structure in the mean time,
the values will be returned in an order which corresponds to the order
returned by keys.
Xho
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:02:55 -0700
From: Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Subject: Re: combining hashes
Message-Id: <lnaaomt2r4.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>
"Uri Guttman" <uri@StemSystems.com> writes:
>>>>>> "KT" == Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
>
> KT> "Uri Guttman" <uri@StemSystems.com> writes:
> KT> [...]
> >> but keys have no order unless you sort them. if you call keys you get
> >> them in a pseudo random order. if you then assign more elements, keys
> >> will likely return them in a DIFFERENT order. hence there is no inherent
> >> order to the elements of a hash. that is the whole point. in classic c
> >> langs, to get access to an element keyed by a string your first pass was
> >> a sequential scan and looking at each key. ordering doesn't help
> >> there. hashes are designed to allow a faster access to any element
> >> regardless of the key. in perl that means they are close to arrays in
> >> speed. in c they are much slower than arrays since you need to do
> >> several serious calculations and such to find the right element. but
> >> they are still faster than any other common key based lookup style
> >> (binary search, trees, etc.)
> KT> [...]
>
> KT> Even in C, you can build a string-keyed data structure that
> KT> doesn't require examining each key, such as a binary tree or even
> KT> a hash table. The difference is that, unlike Perl, C doesn't have
> KT> built-in hashes. (And neither did Perl until Larry wrote the code
> KT> to implement them -- in C.)
>
> please don't tell me how to do searching in c. i was doing that in PL/I
> before your parents were born! :) i was comparing how close to the metal
> c's arrays are vs all string lookups.
Then don't tell me that "to get access to an element keyed by
a string your first pass was a sequential scan and looking at
each key". It's not necessarily true. (Oh, and PL/I didn't exist
before *I* was born, much less my parents.)
You make a valid point, but your apparent claim that C only
supports linear searches obscures it. C supports a wide variety
of data structures (though often less directly than Perl does),
not just arrays.
[snip]
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Nokia
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:15:20 -0700
From: Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Subject: Re: combining hashes
Message-Id: <ln62zat26f.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>
ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com> writes:
[...]
> Let me recast my statement: the keys of a hash are ordered in the
> sense that the value of the key correlates to the content of the hash,
> while the indices of an array are ordered but the values contained in
> the array are not necessarily ordered, although they certain can be.
I decided to look up the technical meaning of "ordered". foldoc.org
seems like a likely place to find a good definition. Here's what I
found:
<http://foldoc.org/ordering>
An "ordering" is defined as a "relation".
<http://foldoc.org/relation>
A "relation", in the mathematical sense, is a subset of the product of
two sets, R: A x B.
In that sense, there is no ordering of the keys of a hash by
themselves (though retrieving the keys in any of several ways
may *create* an arbitrary and temporary ordering) but there is an
"ordering" between the keys and the values.
Note also that the terms "partial ordering" and "total ordering"
refer only to orderings of a single set (R: A x A).
Is that what you meant?
If so, you should be aware by now that almost nobody else here
uses the word "ordered" the way you do. The fact that there is
no ordering within the set of keys of a hash is one of the most
important things to know about Perl hashes. This is typically
expressed by saying that the keys are unordered. I suggest that
saying that the keys are ordered, even if you can stretch the point
to claim that it's technically correct, generates more confusion
than knowledge.
I think we all know how Perl hashes work (in the abstract sense if
not on the nuts-and-bolts implementation level).
> And yes, I know that the order of the items in an array do not change
> because they are tied to the numerical order of the index, while the
> output order of a hash is nondeterministic.
And the "output order" of a hash is not necessarily related to any
ordering property of the hash itself; it could even be literally
random.
[...]
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Nokia
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:09:04 -0400
From: "Uri Guttman" <uri@StemSystems.com>
Subject: Re: combining hashes
Message-Id: <878w463pgv.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "KT" == Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
KT> "Uri Guttman" <uri@StemSystems.com> writes:
>>>>>>> "KT" == Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
>>
KT> "Uri Guttman" <uri@StemSystems.com> writes:
>>
>> please don't tell me how to do searching in c. i was doing that in PL/I
>> before your parents were born! :) i was comparing how close to the metal
>> c's arrays are vs all string lookups.
KT> Then don't tell me that "to get access to an element keyed by
KT> a string your first pass was a sequential scan and looking at
KT> each key". It's not necessarily true. (Oh, and PL/I didn't exist
KT> before *I* was born, much less my parents.)
first pass means first attempt by early coders. sequential scan is a
simple algorithm which anyone can implements. and for short lists,
likely a speedy one too. and were you born before 1967 or so? :)
KT> You make a valid point, but your apparent claim that C only
KT> supports linear searches obscures it. C supports a wide variety
KT> of data structures (though often less directly than Perl does),
KT> not just arrays.
no, i never implied that. i said c lets you get to the metal with arrays
and all other index/search method require lots more cpu. that is all i
was saying. i was trying to ccc explain the reasons hashes exist as you
can't do fast key searches without that algorithm.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
--------- Gourmet Hot Cocoa Mix ---- http://bestfriendscocoa.com ---------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:03:24 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: combining hashes
Message-Id: <soapj7-a2n2.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>:
> ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com> writes:
> [...]
> > Let me recast my statement: the keys of a hash are ordered in the
> > sense that the value of the key correlates to the content of the hash,
> > while the indices of an array are ordered but the values contained in
> > the array are not necessarily ordered, although they certain can be.
>
> I decided to look up the technical meaning of "ordered". foldoc.org
> seems like a likely place to find a good definition. Here's what I
> found:
>
> <http://foldoc.org/ordering>
> An "ordering" is defined as a "relation".
That definition is woefully incomplete. For a relation to be
meaningfully called an order, it must be
- from a set A to itself
- transitive (that is, x * y and y * z => x * z forall x,y,z in A)
(I'm fairly sure I was taught that a relation was always on AxA, but
mathematics being what it is different people use different
definitions.)
> In that sense, there is no ordering of the keys of a hash by
> themselves (though retrieving the keys in any of several ways
> may *create* an arbitrary and temporary ordering) but there is an
> "ordering" between the keys and the values.
There is no such relation between the keys and values of a hash. That
relationship is called a 'function', as you might expect. (It's a
bijection if you consider all the values to be distinct; a surjection if
you use Perl's equality instead.)
> > And yes, I know that the order of the items in an array do not change
> > because they are tied to the numerical order of the index, while the
> > output order of a hash is nondeterministic.
>
> And the "output order" of a hash is not necessarily related to any
> ordering property of the hash itself; it could even be literally
> random.
As Xho pointed out, it is at worst deterministic: if you don't modify
the hash, the order will not change between successive calls to keys,
values or each.
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:01:55 +0800
From: "ela" <ela@yantai.org>
Subject: Re: combining hashes
Message-Id: <i4d1jf$g6l$1@ijustice.itsc.cuhk.edu.hk>
Since this topic looks similar to my problem, I post my question as a follow
up. Previously Jens Thoms Toerring, Tad McClellan and sln taught me much
about the usage of hashing (grateful) and I would like to extend the
application to has the following data (again, a very large one):
<snippet>
180092|Africa|2002-07-30
180092|Australia|2002-07-30
180092|Caribbean|2002-07-30
180092|Europe & Northern Asia (excluding China)|2002-07-30
180092|Middle America|2002-07-30
180092|North America|2002-07-30
180092|Oceania|2002-07-30
180092|South America|2002-07-30
180092|Southern Asia|2002-07-30
<snippet>
when ID 180092 is given, I want to get the locations quickly from the hash.
Is that what this topic "combined hash" is talking about?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:32:10 -0400
From: "Uri Guttman" <uri@StemSystems.com>
Subject: Re: combining hashes
Message-Id: <87r5hx3lmd.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "e" == ela <ela@yantai.org> writes:
e> <snippet>
e> 180092|Africa|2002-07-30
e> 180092|Australia|2002-07-30
e> 180092|Caribbean|2002-07-30
e> 180092|Europe & Northern Asia (excluding China)|2002-07-30
e> 180092|Middle America|2002-07-30
e> 180092|North America|2002-07-30
e> 180092|Oceania|2002-07-30
e> 180092|South America|2002-07-30
e> 180092|Southern Asia|2002-07-30
e> <snippet>
e> when ID 180092 is given, I want to get the locations quickly from
e> the hash. Is that what this topic "combined hash" is talking
e> about?
no. combining hashes is merging two hashes. you want either a hash of
arrays or hash of hashes. i call them generically perl data trees (each
level can be a hash or array). if you just want a list of the locations
for a given id, hash of arrays is fine. this means each id keys into the
top level hash and each value is an anonymous array holding the location
info (one per slot). similarly a hash of hashes would have the same id
key but a hash reference in the value and each of those hashes would
hold the location info (maybe one area per key).
learn more about this by reading perlreftut, perldsc and perllol.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
--------- Gourmet Hot Cocoa Mix ---- http://bestfriendscocoa.com ---------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 02:13:52 -0500
From: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Subject: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
Message-Id: <5MOdnedObv4tq_fRnZ2dnUVZ5hudnZ2d@giganews.com>
Outline
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
- Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
Really Really Should
- Lurk for a while before posting
- Search a Usenet archive
If You Like
- Check Other Resources
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Is there a better place to ask your question?
- Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
- Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
- Use an effective followup style
- Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
- Ask perl to help you
- Do not re-type Perl code
- Provide enough information
- Do not provide too much information
- Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
Social faux pas to avoid
- Asking a Frequently Asked Question
- Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
- Asking for emailed answers
- Beware of saying "doesn't work"
- Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
Be extra cautious when you get upset
- Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
- Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
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Provide enough information
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These features are a really big bonus toward your question winning
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Social faux pas to avoid
The first two below are symptoms of lots of FAQ asking here in clpmisc.
It happens so often that folks will assume that it is happening yet
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post.
Ask the question here, get the answer here (maybe).
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want.
Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
A "stealth Cc" is when you both email and post a reply without
indicating *in the body* that you are doing so.
Be extra cautious when you get upset
Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
This is recommended in all Usenet newsgroups. Here in clpmisc, most
flaming sub-threads are not about any feature of Perl at all! They
are most often for what was seen as a breach of netiquette. If you
have lurked for a bit, then you will know what is expected and won't
make such posts in the first place.
But if you get upset, wait a while before writing your followup. I
recommend waiting at least 30 minutes.
Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
After you have written your followup, wait *another* 30 minutes
before committing yourself by posting it. You cannot take it back
once it has been said.
AUTHOR
Tad McClellan and many others on the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.liamg\100cm.j.dat/"
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:43:42 +0200
From: Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@mail.com>
Subject: Re: Why this warning?
Message-Id: <86wrrpoi1t.fsf@gareth.avalon.lan>
Steve C <smallpond@juno.com> writes:
F> Sal wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks to all on this forum who have taken the time to assist me. You
>> guys are great! After C/C++, Java, PHP, and dabbling a little in
>> Python, Perl is becoming my favorite language. I honestly don't
>> understand all the hype about Python.
>
>
> Python programmers would point to your parens problem as a perfect example
> of why Python is preferred. Perl programs are perplexing. You have to
> parse a lot of punctuation to program Perl.
Rigghht. Never miscounted parens on a function that expects a tuple as
argument?
Or forgotten the comma in a single-element tuple?
All languages have their warts.
Mart
--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
clpa@perl.com.
Back issues are available via anonymous ftp from
ftp://cil-www.oce.orst.edu/pub/perl/old-digests.
#For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
#perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
#sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
#answer them even if I did know the answer.
------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 3080
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