[31788] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 3051 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Fri Jul 30 06:09:22 2010
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 03:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Fri, 30 Jul 2010 Volume: 11 Number: 3051
Today's topics:
How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 o <usenet@davidfilmer.com>
Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>
Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for <davidfilmer@gmail.com>
Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for <uri@StemSystems.com>
Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>
Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: If Perl is compiled on a 32-bit system, and the sys <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>
Re: If Perl is compiled on a 32-bit system, and the sys <nospam-abuse@ilyaz.org>
Re: If Perl is compiled on a 32-bit system, and the sys <nospam-abuse@ilyaz.org>
Re: Is Mason dead? Was: MasonCompRoot and globs <tw@dionic.net>
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:40:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Filmer <usenet@davidfilmer.com>
Subject: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 or 64 bits?
Message-Id: <eef186ca-e4ce-4644-915a-4afdca6a3722@w15g2000pro.googlegroups.com>
How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built at 32 or 64 bits?
If I do "perl -V" I see:
use64bitint=undef, use64bitall=undef
So maybe it's 32-bits, but that doesn't really seem definitive.
Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:43:30 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 or 64 bits?
Message-Id: <m262zyuo19.fsf@sherm.shermpendley.com>
David Filmer <usenet@davidfilmer.com> writes:
> How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built at 32 or 64 bits?
>
> If I do "perl -V" I see:
> use64bitint=undef, use64bitall=undef
Yep, that's how you can tell. Why did you ask if you already knew?
sherm--
--
Sherm Pendley <www.shermpendley.com>
<www.camelbones.org>
Cocoa Developer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:12:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Filmer <davidfilmer@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 or 64 bits?
Message-Id: <7ff9e71c-af23-4c19-aeff-a43b921f410a@n19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
On Jul 29, 11:43=A0am, Sherm Pendley <sherm.pend...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yep, that's how you can tell. Why did you ask if you already knew?
Because the flags don't say "use64bitint=3Dno" - they say undef. So, if
the interpreter is built on a 64-bit system, and those flags aren't
defined, I thought it would probably default to 64-bits. That's how
it _should_ work, IMHO.
--
http://DavidFilmer.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:38:07 -0400
From: "Uri Guttman" <uri@StemSystems.com>
Subject: Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 or 64 bits?
Message-Id: <87lj8udqow.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "DF" == David Filmer <davidfilmer@gmail.com> writes:
DF> On Jul 29, 11:43 am, Sherm Pendley <sherm.pend...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yep, that's how you can tell. Why did you ask if you already knew?
DF> Because the flags don't say "use64bitint=no" - they say undef. So, if
DF> the interpreter is built on a 64-bit system, and those flags aren't
DF> defined, I thought it would probably default to 64-bits. That's how
DF> it _should_ work, IMHO.
not really. undef is a false value in perl so it is also false in the
config file. in fact the Config.pm module is used to dump those values
with -V so that is showing what is really there which is undef (or
possibly even doesn't exist which has a value of undef).
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
--------- Gourmet Hot Cocoa Mix ---- http://bestfriendscocoa.com ---------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:50:35 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 or 64 bits?
Message-Id: <bl29i7-qrm.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth David Filmer <davidfilmer@gmail.com>:
> On Jul 29, 11:43 am, Sherm Pendley <sherm.pend...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yep, that's how you can tell. Why did you ask if you already knew?
>
> Because the flags don't say "use64bitint=no" - they say undef. So, if
> the interpreter is built on a 64-bit system, and those flags aren't
> defined, I thought it would probably default to 64-bits. That's how
> it _should_ work, IMHO.
Those flags don't say 'yes' or 'no', they say 'define' or 'undef'.
'undef' means 'no'. (Sometimes they say 'y' or 'n', but these are
equivalent to 'define' and 'undef'.)
The most reliable way to tell is to look at 'ivsize' and 'ptrsize',
which tell you the sizes of (Perl) integers and pointers respectively.
I *think* a perl with 64bit pointers and integers will always have
use64bitall set, but I'm not entirely sure.
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:09:33 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 or 64 bits?
Message-Id: <m2d3u6rqwy.fsf@sherm.shermpendley.com>
David Filmer <davidfilmer@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jul 29, 11:43Â am, Sherm Pendley <sherm.pend...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yep, that's how you can tell. Why did you ask if you already knew?
>
> Because the flags don't say "use64bitint=no" - they say undef. So, if
> the interpreter is built on a 64-bit system, and those flags aren't
> defined, I thought it would probably default to 64-bits. That's how
> it _should_ work, IMHO.
I don't think you've thought this through... :-)
If "undef" meant "default value," users couldn't tell at a glance if
an option is active or not - instead, they'd then have to go digging
through their platform's hints file to see what the default value is.
sherm--
--
Sherm Pendley <www.shermpendley.com>
<www.camelbones.org>
Cocoa Developer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:46:37 +0200
From: "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Subject: Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 or 64 bits?
Message-Id: <slrni53q5e.bfa.hjp-usenet2@hrunkner.hjp.at>
On 2010-07-29 18:43, Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com> wrote:
> David Filmer <usenet@davidfilmer.com> writes:
>> How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built at 32 or 64 bits?
That depends on what you mean by "built at X bits".
IV size? pointer size? Register size of the architecture?
I'm guessing the latter.
>> If I do "perl -V" I see:
>> use64bitint=undef, use64bitall=undef
>
> Yep, that's how you can tell.
No, not really.
use64bitint says whether IVs are 64 bit. This can be achieved on a 32
bit system if "long long" is available:
|Summary of my perl5 (revision 5 version 12 subversion 1) configuration:
|
| Platform:
| osname=linux, osvers=2.6.32-3-686, archname=i686-linux-64int
[...]
| use64bitint=define, use64bitall=undef, uselongdouble=undef
[...]
| ivtype='long long', ivsize=8, nvtype='double', nvsize=8, Off_t='off_t', lseeksize=8
OTOH, you probably can have a 32bit IV even on a 64 bit system.
use64bitall might be more conclusive (at least you need both 64 bit ints
and 64 bit pointers to get it, which almost certainly means a 64bit
architecture).
If you want to know the architecture, look at archname (although the
names may not be very descriptive).
hp
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:42:08 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built for 32 or 64 bits?
Message-Id: <g699i7-ieo.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>:
> On 2010-07-29 18:43, Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > David Filmer <usenet@davidfilmer.com> writes:
> >> How can I tell if a perl interpreter was built at 32 or 64 bits?
>
> That depends on what you mean by "built at X bits".
>
> IV size? pointer size? Register size of the architecture?
> I'm guessing the latter.
'Register size of the architecture' is an ambiguous term. An x86-64
machine running in compatibility mode (which is how 32bit programs are
run under a 64bit OS) has 16bit, 32bit and 64bit registers available,
but the default address size is still 32 bits.
The normal meaning of this question is 'what size are my pointers', to
which the answer is perl -V:ptrsize.
> >> If I do "perl -V" I see:
> >> use64bitint=undef, use64bitall=undef
> >
> > Yep, that's how you can tell.
>
> No, not really.
>
> use64bitint says whether IVs are 64 bit. This can be achieved on a 32
> bit system if "long long" is available:
>
> |Summary of my perl5 (revision 5 version 12 subversion 1) configuration:
> |
> | Platform:
> | osname=linux, osvers=2.6.32-3-686, archname=i686-linux-64int
> [...]
> | use64bitint=define, use64bitall=undef, uselongdouble=undef
> [...]
> | ivtype='long long', ivsize=8, nvtype='double', nvsize=8,
> Off_t='off_t', lseeksize=8
>
> OTOH, you probably can have a 32bit IV even on a 64 bit system.
>
> use64bitall might be more conclusive (at least you need both 64 bit ints
> and 64 bit pointers to get it, which almost certainly means a 64bit
> architecture).
It's possible at least on some architectures to choose whether to
use64bitall or not (otherwise the option wouldn't exist). As I said
earlier, the only values that actually matter are ptrsize and ivsize.
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:29:14 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: If Perl is compiled on a 32-bit system, and the system is upgraded to 64-bit...
Message-Id: <m2bp9qpar9.fsf@sherm.shermpendley.com>
Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
> Quoth Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com>:
>> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 23:31:50 +0100 Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > BM> (Think about it for a minute. The 32bit perl was, by definition,
>> > BM> compiled with 32bit pointers. Thus, it cannot address more than 32 bits'
>> > BM> worth of memory, regardless of what the OS can address or what is
>> > BM> physically present in the machine.)
>> >
>> > It's not the case here, but it's not generally true (as you imply) that
>> > just because pointers are N-bit you are limited to 2^N memory. You can
>> > definitely address more than the pointer size will allow in a segmented
>> > memory model, just not necessarily all at once.
>>
>> You can even access it all at once, if your pointer data structures
>> contain both a segment identifier and an address. I remember quite
>> well using memory models and different size pointers in MS-DOS, to
>> access up to 1MB on a 16-bit 8086.
>
> ...but then your pointers are more than (32|16) bits wide. A DOS/Win16
> __far pointer is a perfectly respectable 32bit pointer.
Certainly - that's why I took care to distinguish between a pointer as
data structure, vs. a hardware register. Ted wrote "pointer," but I'm
pretty sure he meant to refer to hardware registers.
sherm--
--
Sherm Pendley <www.shermpendley.com>
<www.camelbones.org>
Cocoa Developer
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 03:27:01 +0000 (UTC)
From: Ilya Zakharevich <nospam-abuse@ilyaz.org>
Subject: Re: If Perl is compiled on a 32-bit system, and the system is upgraded to 64-bit...
Message-Id: <slrni54hk5.m8e.nospam-abuse@powdermilk.math.berkeley.edu>
On 2010-07-29, Sherm Pendley <sherm.pendley@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's not the case here, but it's not generally true (as you imply) that
>> just because pointers are N-bit you are limited to 2^N memory. You can
>> definitely address more than the pointer size will allow in a segmented
>> memory model, just not necessarily all at once.
... Then your pointers are wider than 32bit. Some bits of them may
just be inferred from context.
E.g., Generally speaking, on "well-designed" 32-bit architecture, one
would be able to address 8GB of memory (4GB of data, and 4GB of
code). Unfortunately, too many people fell under JfN spell of "code
is data"; the most pronounced problems of the computing of today come
from this incest. [*]
> You can even access it all at once, if your pointer data structures
> contain both a segment identifier and an address.
If the combined size is 32bit, then you cannot access more than 4GB.
> Theory and history aside though, I don't think perl uses far pointers,
> even on a system that supports them. Nor can I think of any such system
> that's still in use.
32bit Linux uses far (read: 32bit) pointers. ;-) Basically, AFAIU, on
most architectures of today paging takes the role of segments.
Yours,
Ilya
[*] AFAIK, Solaris (tries to?) separate code from data AMAP. On
Solaris/i386, are they in different segments?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 03:32:44 +0000 (UTC)
From: Ilya Zakharevich <nospam-abuse@ilyaz.org>
Subject: Re: If Perl is compiled on a 32-bit system, and the system is upgraded to 64-bit...
Message-Id: <slrni54hur.m8e.nospam-abuse@powdermilk.math.berkeley.edu>
On 2010-07-29, Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
> ...but then your pointers are more than (32|16) bits wide. A DOS/Win16
> __far pointer is a perfectly respectable 32bit pointer.
This depends on your GDT/LDT. E.g., on OS/2 LDT is organized so that
8K of 64KB segments cover the first 512MB of virtual memory in a 4GB
segment (0x053, IIRC). So the same 32-bit-wide bitmaps can be used as
far 16-bit or near 32-bit pointers - which leads to very simple thunks
between 16-bit and 32-bit code.
Yours,
Ilya
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 23:26:39 +0100
From: Tim Watts <tw@dionic.net>
Subject: Re: Is Mason dead? Was: MasonCompRoot and globs
Message-Id: <i2sv71$up8$1@news.eternal-september.org>
J. Gleixner <glex_no-spam@qwest-spam-no.invalid>
wibbled on Friday 16 July 2010 17:09
> Tim Watts wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Judging by the resounding lack of action re Mason here and on the MasonHQ
>> lists do I conclude that using Mason on a new project is a bad idea?
>
> Post your question to the Mason mailing list. That will
> go to the authors and to others who are very knowledgeable about
> Mason.
>
> I've done what you want to do using a simple component, going
> up a directory at a time, looking for a certain file, but maybe
> there's a better way that would be mentioned by the mailing list.
>
> Maybe this will help you:
>
> http://masonhq.com/?Component:Recurser
>
> It's pretty simple to write what you want to do, if
> it's not already available in Mason.
>
>>
>> Is there something better that's solid?
>
> Catalyst might be of interest. CGI::Application, Template Toolkit, etc.
Long term follow up:
I re jigged my recurser again (I should submit that to MasonHQ once I work
out how).
Anyway, re-did my web site in Mason - not hard. Most of the SSI "components"
were ripe for translating to Mason components.
Nearly every component is called via my recurser so overriding is trivial.
One other trick I did was I found the whole "OO" think in Mason to be
completely brain damaged, but the caching and syntax suger were very nice.
I allow .html to be handled without template wrapping, but if the file is
missing, the dhandler (default-no-file handler) will look for alternate file
endings in the same translated directory and then marry those with a
template wrapper.
eg: /index.html will actually call webroot/index.mhtml wrapped with
mhtml.tem.
Each module may have an init method (not an %init section - those didn't
work very well IMO) and the autohandler will call those in sequence:
template, then target. Those return hashed whose keys get merged into a
global hashref $g which the other components may call on.
This way I can have more than one template without filling the autohandler
with cruft.
In summary: Mason had a lot of good ideas, but didn't seem to implement some
of them very wisely (mostly the %attr, %init and all the inheritance stuff).
Fortunately it's solid enough to offer the flexibility to do what I did
cleanly and I'm very happy. It seems pretty quick too.
Cheers
Tim
--
Tim Watts
Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 02:12:15 -0500
From: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Subject: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
Message-Id: <tuednRDRqtzS5s_RnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@giganews.com>
Outline
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
- Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
Really Really Should
- Lurk for a while before posting
- Search a Usenet archive
If You Like
- Check Other Resources
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Is there a better place to ask your question?
- Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
- Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
- Use an effective followup style
- Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
- Ask perl to help you
- Do not re-type Perl code
- Provide enough information
- Do not provide too much information
- Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
Social faux pas to avoid
- Asking a Frequently Asked Question
- Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
- Asking for emailed answers
- Beware of saying "doesn't work"
- Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
Be extra cautious when you get upset
- Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
- Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
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This section describes things that you *can* do before posting to
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Instead say: I have $var = "foo\tbar", or I have $var = 'foo\tbar',
or I have $var = <DATA> (and show the data line).
Ask perl to help you
You can ask perl itself to help you find common programming mistakes
by doing two things: enable warnings (perldoc warnings) and enable
"strict"ures (perldoc strict).
You should not bother the hundreds/thousands of readers of the
newsgroup without first seeing if a machine can help you find your
problem. It is demeaning to be asked to do the work of a machine. It
will annoy the readers of your article.
You can look up any of the messages that perl might issue to find
out what the message means and how to resolve the potential mistake
(perldoc perldiag). If you would like perl to look them up for you,
you can put "use diagnostics;" near the top of your program.
Do not re-type Perl code
Use copy/paste or your editor's "import" function rather than
attempting to type in your code. If you make a typo you will get
followups about your typos instead of about the question you are
trying to get answered.
Provide enough information
If you do the things in this item, you will have an Extremely Good
chance of getting people to try and help you with your problem!
These features are a really big bonus toward your question winning
out over all of the other posts that you are competing with.
First make a short (less than 20-30 lines) and *complete* program
that illustrates the problem you are having. People should be able
to run your program by copy/pasting the code from your article. (You
will find that doing this step very often reveals your problem
directly. Leading to an answer much more quickly and reliably than
posting to Usenet.)
Describe *precisely* the input to your program. Also provide example
input data for your program. If you need to show file input, use the
__DATA__ token (perldata.pod) to provide the file contents inside of
your Perl program.
Show the output (including the verbatim text of any messages) of
your program.
Describe how you want the output to be different from what you are
getting.
If you have no idea at all of how to code up your situation, be sure
to at least describe the 2 things that you *do* know: input and
desired output.
Do not provide too much information
Do not just post your entire program for debugging. Most especially
do not post someone *else's* entire program.
Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
clpmisc is a text only newsgroup. If you have images or binaries
that explain your question, put them in a publically accessible
place (like a Web server) and provide a pointer to that location. If
you include code, cut and paste it directly in the message body.
Don't attach anything to the message. Don't post vcards or HTML.
Many people (and even some Usenet servers) will automatically filter
out such messages. Many people will not be able to easily read your
post. Plain text is something everyone can read.
Social faux pas to avoid
The first two below are symptoms of lots of FAQ asking here in clpmisc.
It happens so often that folks will assume that it is happening yet
again. If you have looked but not found, or found but didn't understand
the docs, say so in your article.
Asking a Frequently Asked Question
It should be understood that you may have missed the applicable FAQ
when you checked, which is not a big deal. But if the Frequently
Asked Question is worded similar to your question, folks will assume
that you did not look at all. Don't become indignant at pointers to
the FAQ, particularly if it solves your problem.
Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
If folks think you have not even tried the obvious step of reading
the docs applicable to your problem, they are likely to become
annoyed.
If you are flamed for not checking when you *did* check, then just
shrug it off (and take the answer that you got).
Asking for emailed answers
Emailed answers benefit one person. Posted answers benefit the
entire community. If folks can take the time to answer your
question, then you can take the time to go get the answer in the
same place where you asked the question.
It is OK to ask for a *copy* of the answer to be emailed, but many
will ignore such requests anyway. If you munge your address, you
should never expect (or ask) to get email in response to a Usenet
post.
Ask the question here, get the answer here (maybe).
Beware of saying "doesn't work"
This is a "red flag" phrase. If you find yourself writing that,
pause and see if you can't describe what is not working without
saying "doesn't work". That is, describe how it is not what you
want.
Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
A "stealth Cc" is when you both email and post a reply without
indicating *in the body* that you are doing so.
Be extra cautious when you get upset
Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
This is recommended in all Usenet newsgroups. Here in clpmisc, most
flaming sub-threads are not about any feature of Perl at all! They
are most often for what was seen as a breach of netiquette. If you
have lurked for a bit, then you will know what is expected and won't
make such posts in the first place.
But if you get upset, wait a while before writing your followup. I
recommend waiting at least 30 minutes.
Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
After you have written your followup, wait *another* 30 minutes
before committing yourself by posting it. You cannot take it back
once it has been said.
AUTHOR
Tad McClellan and many others on the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.liamg\100cm.j.dat/"
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
clpa@perl.com.
Back issues are available via anonymous ftp from
ftp://cil-www.oce.orst.edu/pub/perl/old-digests.
#For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
#perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
#sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
#answer them even if I did know the answer.
------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 3051
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