[31626] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2885 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Mar 24 18:14:37 2010
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 24 Mar 2010 Volume: 11 Number: 2885
Today's topics:
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Show what a substitution is doing ? <willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Re: Show what a substitution is doing ? <marc.girod@gmail.com>
Re: Show what a substitution is doing ? sln@netherlands.com
Re: Show what a substitution is doing ? <willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Re: Show what a substitution is doing ? <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: Terms of Use <mvdwege@mail.com>
Re: Terms of Use <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Re: Terms of Use (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: Terms of Use <willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Re: Terms of Use sln@netherlands.com
Re: Terms of Use <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Re: Terms of Use <mvdwege@mail.com>
www::mechanize - unable to connect <john1949@yahoo.com>
Re: www::mechanize - unable to connect <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: www::mechanize - unable to connect <john1949@yahoo.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 02:14:01 -0500
From: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Subject: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
Message-Id: <0MKdnaHEzeCk9zXWnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@giganews.com>
Outline
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
- Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
Really Really Should
- Lurk for a while before posting
- Search a Usenet archive
If You Like
- Check Other Resources
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Is there a better place to ask your question?
- Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
- Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
- Use an effective followup style
- Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
- Ask perl to help you
- Do not re-type Perl code
- Provide enough information
- Do not provide too much information
- Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
Social faux pas to avoid
- Asking a Frequently Asked Question
- Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
- Asking for emailed answers
- Beware of saying "doesn't work"
- Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
Be extra cautious when you get upset
- Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
- Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
This newsgroup, commonly called clpmisc, is a technical newsgroup
intended to be used for discussion of Perl related issues (except job
postings), whether it be comments or questions.
As you would expect, clpmisc discussions are usually very technical in
nature and there are conventions for conduct in technical newsgroups
going somewhat beyond those in non-technical newsgroups.
The article at:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
describes how to get answers from technical people in general.
This article describes things that you should, and should not, do to
increase your chances of getting an answer to your Perl question. It is
available in POD, HTML and plain text formats at:
http://www.rehabitation.com/clpmisc.shtml
For more information about netiquette in general, see the "Netiquette
Guidelines" at:
http://andrew2.andrew.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc1855.html
A note to newsgroup "regulars":
Do not use these guidelines as a "license to flame" or other
meanness. It is possible that a poster is unaware of things
discussed here. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and just
help them learn how to post, rather than assume that they do
know and are being the "bad kind" of Lazy.
A note about technical terms used here:
In this document, we use words like "must" and "should" as
they're used in technical conversation (such as you will
encounter in this newsgroup). When we say that you *must* do
something, we mean that if you don't do that something, then
it's unlikely that you will benefit much from this group.
We're not bossing you around; we're making the point without
lots of words.
Do *NOT* send email to the maintainer of these guidelines. It will be
discarded unread. The guidelines belong to the newsgroup so all
discussion should appear in the newsgroup. I am just the secretary that
writes down the consensus of the group.
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
This section describes things that you *must* do before posting to
clpmisc, in order to maximize your chances of getting meaningful replies
to your inquiry and to avoid getting flamed for being lazy and trying to
have others do your work.
The perl distribution includes documentation that is copied to your hard
drive when you install perl. Also installed is a program for looking
things up in that (and other) documentation named 'perldoc'.
You should either find out where the docs got installed on your system,
or use perldoc to find them for you. Type "perldoc perldoc" to learn how
to use perldoc itself. Type "perldoc perl" to start reading Perl's
standard documentation.
Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Checking the FAQ before posting is required in Big 8 newsgroups in
general, there is nothing clpmisc-specific about this requirement.
You are expected to do this in nearly all newsgroups.
You can use the "-q" switch with perldoc to do a word search of the
questions in the Perl FAQs.
Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
The perl distribution comes with much more documentation than is
available for most other newsgroups, so in clpmisc you should also
see if you can find an answer in the other (non-FAQ) standard docs
before posting.
It is *not* required, or even expected, that you actually *read* all of
Perl's standard docs, only that you spend a few minutes searching them
before posting.
Try doing a word-search in the standard docs for some words/phrases
taken from your problem statement or from your very carefully worded
"Subject:" header.
Really Really Should
This section describes things that you *really should* do before posting
to clpmisc.
Lurk for a while before posting
This is very important and expected in all newsgroups. Lurking means
to monitor a newsgroup for a period to become familiar with local
customs. Each newsgroup has specific customs and rituals. Knowing
these before you participate will help avoid embarrassing social
situations. Consider yourself to be a foreigner at first!
Search a Usenet archive
There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers. It is very likely
that your question has already been asked (and answered). See if you
can find where it has already been answered.
One such searchable archive is:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search
If You Like
This section describes things that you *can* do before posting to
clpmisc.
Check Other Resources
You may want to check in books or on web sites to see if you can
find the answer to your question.
But you need to consider the source of such information: there are a
lot of very poor Perl books and web sites, and several good ones
too, of course.
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
There can be 200 messages in clpmisc in a single day. Nobody is going to
read every article. They must decide somehow which articles they are
going to read, and which they will skip.
Your post is in competition with 199 other posts. You need to "win"
before a person who can help you will even read your question.
These sections describe how you can help keep your article from being
one of the "skipped" ones.
Is there a better place to ask your question?
Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
It can be difficult to separate out where your problem really is,
but you should make a conscious effort to post to the most
applicable newsgroup. That is, after all, where you are the most
likely to find the people who know how to answer your question.
Being able to "partition" a problem is an essential skill for
effectively troubleshooting programming problems. If you don't get
that right, you end up looking for answers in the wrong places.
It should be understood that you may not know that the root of your
problem is not Perl-related (the two most frequent ones are CGI and
Operating System related), so off-topic postings will happen from
time to time. Be gracious when someone helps you find a better place
to ask your question by pointing you to a more applicable newsgroup.
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
You have 40 precious characters of Subject to win out and be one of
the posts that gets read. Don't waste them. Take care while
composing them, they are the key that opens the door to getting an
answer.
Spend them indicating what aspect of Perl others will find if they
should decide to read your article.
Do not spend them indicating "experience level" (guru, newbie...).
Do not spend them pleading (please read, urgent, help!...).
Do not spend them on non-Subjects (Perl question, one-word
Subject...)
For more information on choosing a Subject see "Choosing Good
Subject Lines":
http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/D/DM/DMR/subjects.post
Part of the beauty of newsgroup dynamics, is that you can contribute
to the community with your very first post! If your choice of
Subject leads a fellow Perler to find the thread you are starting,
then even asking a question helps us all.
Use an effective followup style
When composing a followup, quote only enough text to establish the
context for the comments that you will add. Always indicate who
wrote the quoted material. Never quote an entire article. Never
quote a .signature (unless that is what you are commenting on).
Intersperse your comments *following* each section of quoted text to
which they relate. Unappreciated followup styles are referred to as
"top-posting", "Jeopardy" (because the answer comes before the
question), or "TOFU" (Text Over, Fullquote Under).
Reversing the chronology of the dialog makes it much harder to
understand (some folks won't even read it if written in that style).
For more information on quoting style, see:
http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/nquote.html
Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
Perl is much more precise than natural language. Saying it in Perl
instead will avoid misunderstanding your question or problem.
Do not say: I have variable with "foo\tbar" in it.
Instead say: I have $var = "foo\tbar", or I have $var = 'foo\tbar',
or I have $var = <DATA> (and show the data line).
Ask perl to help you
You can ask perl itself to help you find common programming mistakes
by doing two things: enable warnings (perldoc warnings) and enable
"strict"ures (perldoc strict).
You should not bother the hundreds/thousands of readers of the
newsgroup without first seeing if a machine can help you find your
problem. It is demeaning to be asked to do the work of a machine. It
will annoy the readers of your article.
You can look up any of the messages that perl might issue to find
out what the message means and how to resolve the potential mistake
(perldoc perldiag). If you would like perl to look them up for you,
you can put "use diagnostics;" near the top of your program.
Do not re-type Perl code
Use copy/paste or your editor's "import" function rather than
attempting to type in your code. If you make a typo you will get
followups about your typos instead of about the question you are
trying to get answered.
Provide enough information
If you do the things in this item, you will have an Extremely Good
chance of getting people to try and help you with your problem!
These features are a really big bonus toward your question winning
out over all of the other posts that you are competing with.
First make a short (less than 20-30 lines) and *complete* program
that illustrates the problem you are having. People should be able
to run your program by copy/pasting the code from your article. (You
will find that doing this step very often reveals your problem
directly. Leading to an answer much more quickly and reliably than
posting to Usenet.)
Describe *precisely* the input to your program. Also provide example
input data for your program. If you need to show file input, use the
__DATA__ token (perldata.pod) to provide the file contents inside of
your Perl program.
Show the output (including the verbatim text of any messages) of
your program.
Describe how you want the output to be different from what you are
getting.
If you have no idea at all of how to code up your situation, be sure
to at least describe the 2 things that you *do* know: input and
desired output.
Do not provide too much information
Do not just post your entire program for debugging. Most especially
do not post someone *else's* entire program.
Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
clpmisc is a text only newsgroup. If you have images or binaries
that explain your question, put them in a publically accessible
place (like a Web server) and provide a pointer to that location. If
you include code, cut and paste it directly in the message body.
Don't attach anything to the message. Don't post vcards or HTML.
Many people (and even some Usenet servers) will automatically filter
out such messages. Many people will not be able to easily read your
post. Plain text is something everyone can read.
Social faux pas to avoid
The first two below are symptoms of lots of FAQ asking here in clpmisc.
It happens so often that folks will assume that it is happening yet
again. If you have looked but not found, or found but didn't understand
the docs, say so in your article.
Asking a Frequently Asked Question
It should be understood that you may have missed the applicable FAQ
when you checked, which is not a big deal. But if the Frequently
Asked Question is worded similar to your question, folks will assume
that you did not look at all. Don't become indignant at pointers to
the FAQ, particularly if it solves your problem.
Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
If folks think you have not even tried the obvious step of reading
the docs applicable to your problem, they are likely to become
annoyed.
If you are flamed for not checking when you *did* check, then just
shrug it off (and take the answer that you got).
Asking for emailed answers
Emailed answers benefit one person. Posted answers benefit the
entire community. If folks can take the time to answer your
question, then you can take the time to go get the answer in the
same place where you asked the question.
It is OK to ask for a *copy* of the answer to be emailed, but many
will ignore such requests anyway. If you munge your address, you
should never expect (or ask) to get email in response to a Usenet
post.
Ask the question here, get the answer here (maybe).
Beware of saying "doesn't work"
This is a "red flag" phrase. If you find yourself writing that,
pause and see if you can't describe what is not working without
saying "doesn't work". That is, describe how it is not what you
want.
Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
A "stealth Cc" is when you both email and post a reply without
indicating *in the body* that you are doing so.
Be extra cautious when you get upset
Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
This is recommended in all Usenet newsgroups. Here in clpmisc, most
flaming sub-threads are not about any feature of Perl at all! They
are most often for what was seen as a breach of netiquette. If you
have lurked for a bit, then you will know what is expected and won't
make such posts in the first place.
But if you get upset, wait a while before writing your followup. I
recommend waiting at least 30 minutes.
Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
After you have written your followup, wait *another* 30 minutes
before committing yourself by posting it. You cannot take it back
once it has been said.
AUTHOR
Tad McClellan and many others on the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.liamg\100cm.j.dat/"
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:35:05 +0000 (UTC)
From: Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Subject: Show what a substitution is doing ?
Message-Id: <slrnhqkmqp.1s1r.willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Hello,
For a program I'm writing that does a few regex-based substitutions
in a large file, I would like to see exactly what substitutions are
being done. I.E. Which strings were matched, and what they were
replaced by.
Or, in code: if I do:
$content =~ s/<add key="(.*?).foobar.\d+" value="Foo=.*?;(.*?"/>)/
<add key="$1.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;$2/g;
I want to display stuff like:
Substitution: '<add key="one.foobar.12" value="Foo=15;Bar=3"/>'
=> '<add key="one.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;Bar=3"/>'
Substitution: '<add key="two.foobar.12" value="Foo=15;Bar=8"/>'
=> '<add key="two.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;Bar=8"/>'
I have already succeeded in doing this by making a loop around
while ($content =~ /.../g)
where I used the @- and @+ arrays to get at the matches, and then
manually fill in the $1 .. $x variables.
That's pretty complicated, however, and also the actual substitution is
pretty hairy too (I had to do another s/// with the strings I just created
and displayed).
Is there an easier way to get at what a substitution is doing ?
SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marc Girod <marc.girod@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Show what a substitution is doing ?
Message-Id: <ee4a5a33-7fd1-4a77-987b-5238fc40b36d@d27g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>
On Mar 24, 6:35=A0pm, Willem <wil...@turtle.stack.nl> wrote:
> Is there an easier way to get at what a substitution is doing ?
Run under the debugger, with an action to print the values before and
after?
Marc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 14:12:24 -0700
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Re: Show what a substitution is doing ?
Message-Id: <nlvkq5dfv5idrjpe4h6jlne8466k45alhs@4ax.com>
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:35:05 +0000 (UTC), Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>For a program I'm writing that does a few regex-based substitutions
>in a large file, I would like to see exactly what substitutions are
>being done. I.E. Which strings were matched, and what they were
>replaced by.
>
>Or, in code: if I do:
>
> $content =~ s/<add key="(.*?).foobar.\d+" value="Foo=.*?;(.*?"/>)/
> <add key="$1.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;$2/g;
>
>I want to display stuff like:
> Substitution: '<add key="one.foobar.12" value="Foo=15;Bar=3"/>'
> => '<add key="one.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;Bar=3"/>'
> Substitution: '<add key="two.foobar.12" value="Foo=15;Bar=8"/>'
> => '<add key="two.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;Bar=8"/>'
>
>I have already succeeded in doing this by making a loop around
> while ($content =~ /.../g)
>
>where I used the @- and @+ arrays to get at the matches, and then
>manually fill in the $1 .. $x variables.
>That's pretty complicated, however, and also the actual substitution is
>pretty hairy too (I had to do another s/// with the strings I just created
> and displayed).
>
>Is there an easier way to get at what a substitution is doing ?
>
>
>SaSW, Willem
Probably the literals '.' and '/' should be escaped.
I'm suprised it worked.
This is one way, probably more ways.
-sln
--------------
use strict;
use warnings;
my $tmp;
my $content = qq{
<add key="one.foobar.12" value="Foo=15;Bar=3"/>
<add key="two.foobar.12" value="Foo=15;Bar=8"/>
};
$content =~ s/(<add key=".*?\.foobar\.)(\d+)(" value="Foo=)(.*?)(;.*?"\/>)/
$tmp = $1.'10'.$3.'20'.$5;
print "Substitution: '$1$2$3$4$5'\n => '$tmp'\n";
$tmp/eg;
print $content;
__END__
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:19:18 +0000 (UTC)
From: Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Subject: Re: Show what a substitution is doing ?
Message-Id: <slrnhql0em.1tm4.willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Marc Girod wrote:
) On Mar 24, 6:35?pm, Willem <wil...@turtle.stack.nl> wrote:
)
)> Is there an easier way to get at what a substitution is doing ?
)
) Run under the debugger, with an action to print the values before and
) after?
1 - I want just the bits that are substituted, although that
may very well be possible in the debugger ?
2 - This is for a user app, and I want the user to see the changes.
Especially #2 rules out using the debugger.
SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:48:59 +0000
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: Show what a substitution is doing ?
Message-Id: <bvdq77-5r2.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl>:
>
> For a program I'm writing that does a few regex-based substitutions
> in a large file, I would like to see exactly what substitutions are
> being done. I.E. Which strings were matched, and what they were
> replaced by.
>
> Or, in code: if I do:
>
> $content =~ s/<add key="(.*?).foobar.\d+" value="Foo=.*?;(.*?"/>)/
> <add key="$1.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;$2/g;
>
> I want to display stuff like:
> Substitution: '<add key="one.foobar.12" value="Foo=15;Bar=3"/>'
> => '<add key="one.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;Bar=3"/>'
> Substitution: '<add key="two.foobar.12" value="Foo=15;Bar=8"/>'
> => '<add key="two.foobar.10" value="Foo=20;Bar=8"/>'
>
> I have already succeeded in doing this by making a loop around
> while ($content =~ /.../g)
>
> where I used the @- and @+ arrays to get at the matches, and then
> manually fill in the $1 .. $x variables.
> That's pretty complicated, however, and also the actual substitution is
> pretty hairy too (I had to do another s/// with the strings I just created
> and displayed).
It shouldn't need to be complicated.
while ($content =~ /foo(\d+)/g) {
my ($start, $end) = ($-[0], $+[0]);
# this qq// should contain exactly what you would have put
# in the RHS of the s///
my $after = qq/bar$1/;
my $before = substr $content, $start, $end, $after;
}
(untested) ought to work, though you may need
pos($content) = $start + length $after;
as well.
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:46:08 +0100
From: Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@mail.com>
Subject: Re: Terms of Use
Message-Id: <8639zrbcbj.fsf@gareth.avalon.lan>
Tad McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid> writes:
> sln@netherlands.com <sln@netherlands.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:40:14 +0000, Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Quoth Steve <steve@staticg.com>:
>>>>
>>>> Based on what you all said, I can make a more clear description.
>>>> Essentially, I'm trying to search craigslist more efficiently. I want
>>>
>>>Are you sure craigslist's Terms of Use allow this? Most sites of this
>>>nature don't.
>>
>> There is no "Terms of Use" web page making a caller
>> agree to, sign, a legal notorized document as a condition of usage.
>
>
> There is no legal need to sign anything.
>
> http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use
>
> By using the Service in any way, you are agreeing to comply with the TOU.
Irrelevant.
The protocols do not specify what I should or should not GET from an
HTTP server. If I am using a text-based browser, I don't download
images, for example.
And Terms of Use are nice, but unless you can prove I read them, you
cannot force me to abide by them.
Not using robots is common courtesy, Terms of Use have no legal power to
stop me from using them.
Mart
--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:18:23 +0100
From: "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Subject: Re: Terms of Use
Message-Id: <slrnhqhmu1.f41.hjp-usenet2@hrunkner.hjp.at>
On 2010-03-22 23:26, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> wrote:
> sln@netherlands.com writes:
>> On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:56:17 +0100, "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at> wrote:
>>>Don't know about the US, but in Europe "a composition of ordinary ...
>>>information" is more strongly protected by copyright law than "a
>>>movie,
>
> If this European law is the same as the Dutch Databanken-recht "database
> law", a database is protected under that law if there has been put
> substantial effort into the compilation of such a database.
Or "if the selection or arrangement are his own creation" (my
translation from Austrian UrhG, §40f). As I read it, only one of these
criteria needs to be fulfilled for protection.
An example of the former category is a telephone book: The "selection or
arrangement" are not the creation of the publisher: They have been the
same for decades. But compiling the data and keeping it up to date is a
substantial investment, so it is protected (unless you are a phone
company - then you have the data anyway, so there is no investment, and
hence no protection (say the Judges[1][2])).
But if I come up with a new way to arrange the data (let's say I sort
them by phone number instead of name (well, that isn't that new, but it
serves as an example) then this new database is protected even if I
didn't have a substantial investment in the data.
> This is *not* copyright however, it's a separate law.
Strictly speaking, "copyright" doesn't exist in continental Europe.
What is called "Urheberrecht" in German emerged during the French
revolution and is based on quite different ideas. But since in practice
the difference is almost non-existent and there doesn't seem to be a
commonly accepted English term for this law, I talk about "copyright"
unless the topic is the difference between these laws.
In Austria (and, AFAIK, Germany) IP rights for databases are part of
the "Urheberrechtsgesetz" (§40f, §76, etc. in Austria). It is possible
that the Netherlands made it a seperate law, but that doesn't matter -
the contents are (substantially) the same.
>> I would say a "list" is just that and nothing more, not copyrighted at
>> all. A list of students is not unique nor copyrighted.
>
> Correct, and under the Dutch law such a list is only protected if there
> has been put a substantial effort into its compilation. So there is
> probably no way you can protect a list of 500 students,
You can if you come up with a "selection or arrangement of your own
creation". Or maybe you can argue that collecting data about 500
students was a substantial effort (depending on the students and the
data this may be true).
> but most likely you can if such a list has thousands and thousands of
> students, and effort has been put into keeping the addresses of each
> student actual, etc.
>
> IANAL,
Neither am I.
hp
[1] It was actually about horse races, not phone numbers, but I think
that makes no difference.
[2] The lecturer who mentioned this example wasn't very fond of the law.
If I say that he called it a complete failure I'm only slightly
exaggerating.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:14:37 -0700
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Terms of Use
Message-Id: <867hp36peq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
>>>>> "sln" == sln <sln@netherlands.com> writes:
sln> I would say a "list" is just that and nothing more, not copyrighted at
sln> all.
And since lawyers disagree with you, a smart person would be wise to ignore
you and find a lawyer.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:29:47 +0000 (UTC)
From: Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Subject: Re: Terms of Use
Message-Id: <slrnhqhukb.18mi.willem@turtle.stack.nl>
Mart van de Wege wrote:
) Irrelevant.
)
) The protocols do not specify what I should or should not GET from an
) HTTP server. If I am using a text-based browser, I don't download
) images, for example.
)
) And Terms of Use are nice, but unless you can prove I read them, you
) cannot force me to abide by them.
One could argue that you're *not* allowed to do anything whatsoever
with a web page, *except* when the copyright holder allows it.
Which he does, obviously, through a terms-of-use agreement.
With that basis, viewing a web page *does* imply that you agree with
the terms of use, because if you didn't, then you would not have had
the right to download and view anything.
SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:58:20 -0700
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Re: Terms of Use
Message-Id: <0dvhq552113brnfbvmkbch9iksf1pbueef@4ax.com>
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:14:37 -0700, merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
>>>>>> "sln" == sln <sln@netherlands.com> writes:
>
>sln> I would say a "list" is just that and nothing more, not copyrighted at
>sln> all.
>
>And since lawyers disagree with you, a smart person would be wise to ignore
>you and find a lawyer.
No need to do that. Below is a general explaination of what a copyright
is. Nope, nothing about "lists" as being copyrighted. Even if you could extrapolate
and declare that a single field, filterred list from a table, is a "database", it is
not a distinct collection of uncommon information, nor is it substantive in its nature
to even qualify as a database.
Its a huge leap to say a list is copyrighted, if it was it would be a "related right"
as a database, with extreme limitations and qualifications. Even then, only the UA
recognizes it as such, NOT the United States nor Australia.
In reality, a "list" is just a collection of uncreative facts, nothing more,
not copyrighted at all.
-sln
COPYRIGHT
----------
Copyright is the set of exclusive rights granted to the author or
creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute
and adapt the work. These rights can be licensed,
transferred and/or assigned.
The type of works which are subject to copyright has been expanded
over time. Initially only covering books, copyright law was revised
in the 19th century to include maps, charts, engravings, prints,
musical compositions, dramatic works, photographs, paintings,
drawings and sculptures. In the 20th century copyright was expanded
to cover motion pictures, computer programs, sound recordings,
dance and architectural works.
Copyright law is typically designed to protect the fixed expression
or manifestation of an idea rather than the fundamental idea itself.
RELATED RIGHTS
----------------
Related rights is used to describe database rights, public lending
rights (rental rights), artist resale rights and performers’ rights.
Related rights award copyright protection to works which are
not author works, but rather technical media works which allowed
author works to be communicated to a new audience in a different
form. The substance of protection is usually not as great as
there is for author works.
- DATABASES
EU:
In European Union law, a database right is a legal right,
introduced in 1996. Database rights are specifically coded
(i.e. sui generis) laws on the copying and dissemination
of information in computer databases.
... giving a specific and separate legal rights
(and limitations) to certain computer records.
Rights afforded to manual records under EU database right
law are similar in format, but not identical,
to those afforded artistic works.
United States:
Uncreative collections of facts are outside of
Congressional authority under Article I, § 8, cl. 8,
i.e. the Copyright Clause, of the United States
Constitution, therefore no database right exists
in the United States.
Australia:
No specific law exists in Australia protecting databases.
Databases may only be protected if they fall under general
copyright law. Australian copyright law protects "compilations",
which can include databases, phone books, etc.
This copyright protection only covers the unique arrangement
of data within the compilation, however, not the data itself.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:52:26 -0400
From: sreservoir <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Terms of Use
Message-Id: <hobnof$i1j$1@speranza.aioe.org>
On 3/23/2010 1:29 PM, Willem wrote:
> Mart van de Wege wrote:
> ) Irrelevant.
> )
> ) The protocols do not specify what I should or should not GET from an
> ) HTTP server. If I am using a text-based browser, I don't download
> ) images, for example.
> )
> ) And Terms of Use are nice, but unless you can prove I read them, you
> ) cannot force me to abide by them.
>
> One could argue that you're *not* allowed to do anything whatsoever
> with a web page, *except* when the copyright holder allows it.
> Which he does, obviously, through a terms-of-use agreement.
>
> With that basis, viewing a web page *does* imply that you agree with
> the terms of use, because if you didn't, then you would not have had
> the right to download and view anything.
of course, as the terms of use are on the website, reading them implies
agreeing to them. so.
--
"Six by nine. Forty two."
"That's it. That's all there is."
"I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:49:29 +0100
From: Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@mail.com>
Subject: Re: Terms of Use
Message-Id: <86iq8lvkp2.fsf@gareth.avalon.lan>
Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> writes:
> Mart van de Wege wrote:
> ) Irrelevant.
> )
> ) The protocols do not specify what I should or should not GET from an
> ) HTTP server. If I am using a text-based browser, I don't download
> ) images, for example.
> )
> ) And Terms of Use are nice, but unless you can prove I read them, you
> ) cannot force me to abide by them.
>
> One could argue that you're *not* allowed to do anything whatsoever
> with a web page, *except* when the copyright holder allows it.
> Which he does, obviously, through a terms-of-use agreement.
>
Yeah, but that works two ways. One could also argue that putting
information on a publicly reachable server, using a protocol
specifically designed for publishing, without access controls, implies
that you want the world to read your pages.
IMO, using a robot that doesn't GET faster than a human would is about
as bad as using Lynx.
Mart
--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:12:26 -0000
From: "John" <john1949@yahoo.com>
Subject: www::mechanize - unable to connect
Message-Id: <hoce0r$q45$1@news.albasani.net>
Hi
I have
use WWW::Mechanize;
my $agent=WWW::Mechanize->new(autocheck => 1);
my ($url,$response,$content);
$url="http://www.example.com";
$agent->get($url); # main page
if (defined $agent) { whatever ...} else {print 'cannot connect'}
I get an error message if I cannot connect. I thought the if (defined
$agent) would catch this but it does not. Why?
Regards
John
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:30:34 -0700
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: www::mechanize - unable to connect
Message-Id: <dmfjq5tmt4d7408pabc2d33puojvgnlkmr@4ax.com>
"John" <john1949@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have
>
>use WWW::Mechanize;
>my $agent=WWW::Mechanize->new(autocheck => 1);
>my ($url,$response,$content);
>$url="http://www.example.com";
>$agent->get($url); # main page
>if (defined $agent) { whatever ...} else {print 'cannot connect'}
>
>I get an error message if I cannot connect. I thought the if (defined
>$agent) would catch this but it does not. Why?
Where did you get the idea the $agent object would become undef if the
get() method can't connect?
See section "Status Methods" in the documention of WWW::Mechanize for
how to check for errors.
jue
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:33:22 -0000
From: "John" <john1949@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: www::mechanize - unable to connect
Message-Id: <hocioi$1r7$1@news.albasani.net>
"Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dmfjq5tmt4d7408pabc2d33puojvgnlkmr@4ax.com...
> "John" <john1949@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>I have
>>
>>use WWW::Mechanize;
>>my $agent=WWW::Mechanize->new(autocheck => 1);
>>my ($url,$response,$content);
>>$url="http://www.example.com";
>>$agent->get($url); # main page
>>if (defined $agent) { whatever ...} else {print 'cannot connect'}
>>
>>I get an error message if I cannot connect. I thought the if (defined
>>$agent) would catch this but it does not. Why?
>
> Where did you get the idea the $agent object would become undef if the
> get() method can't connect?
> See section "Status Methods" in the documention of WWW::Mechanize for
> how to check for errors.
>
> jue
Many thanks.
Got it at $agent->success() or $agent->status();
Regards
John
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
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Back issues are available via anonymous ftp from
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 2885
***************************************
