[31137] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2382 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Apr 30 16:17:29 2009
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 30 Apr 2009 Volume: 11 Number: 2382
Today's topics:
Re: Perl is too slow - A statement <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Re: Perl is too slow - A statement <nat.k@gm.ml>
Re: Perl is too slow - A statement <uri@stemsystems.com>
Re: Perl is too slow - A statement <nat.k@gm.ml>
Re: Posting to perl.beginners via google groups <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
Re: Posting to perl.beginners via google groups <nat.k@gm.ml>
Re: Posting to perl.beginners via google groups <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Posting to perl.beginners via google groups <nat.k@gm.ml>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:59:49 -0400
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: Perl is too slow - A statement
Message-Id: <86ocuejfnu.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "BL" == Bart Lateur <bart.lateur@pandora.be> writes:
BL> Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>> You go to your manager, and say, "We could develop this new
>> project in C, which will take a team of six programmers six
>> months, and we predict that it will require one server at a cost
>> of $2000 to run. Or we could develop it in perl, which will take
>> a team of six programmers five months, but we predict that one
>> server will not be sufficient at peak load, so we recommend two
>> servers at $2000 each."
BL> That's not very realistic. If it requires 6 programmers for the
BL> C solution, 1 or 2 Perl developers should suffice.
Probably, but I was trying not to stack the deck overwhelmingly. And
I've run into some really good C programmers and some really bad Perl
programmers.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:06:00 -0700
From: Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml>
Subject: Re: Perl is too slow - A statement
Message-Id: <tEmKl.4371$BZ3.2549@newsfe12.iad>
Uri Guttman wrote:
>>>>>> "NK" == Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml> writes:
>
> NK> Uri Guttman wrote:
> >>>>>>> "NK" == Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml> writes:
> >>
> NK> Uri Guttman wrote:
> >>
> >> >> study some computer history and come back when you have
> >> >> finished.
> >>
> NK> Please don't resort to acting like your view is fact and anyone
> >> that
> NK> doesn't agree with you is somehow ignorant. I "get" what you've
> >> said, NK> I just don't agree with it.
> >>
> >> then you don't get it. cwilbur also covered this. sorry but no
> >> more lessons for you.
>
> NK> Your pitiful arrogance is incredibly unappealing. I get it
> fine, you're NK> just acting like you know it all, because you can't
> handle someone NK> disagreeing with you.
>
> my arrogance isn't pitiful!! your ignorance is remarkable.
This is sad, you just don't know when to stop. Calm down a little and
get off your high horse. You don't deserve half the free pass to have
this attitude that you like to think you do.
> and you
> don't get that you are being trolled as well as snickered at. my wife
> disagrees with me all the time and i do fine with her.
So, you're saying you're being a troll? Why is it that I don't "get"
that I'm being trolled and "snickered" at by you? You're posting to me
just as much as I'm posting to you. I genuinely think you lack a clue
about this and I'm trying to help you understand. Don't let the fact I
don't put up with your BS cloud the matter. Anyway, it's funny you
mention your wife, because my wife isn't a programmer and she
immediately gets that it's a stupid thing to suggest a good plan of
action is to get more systems or more powerful systems to make up for
poor programming language choices. You can strive to make up in CPU
power for your language choices if you want, but I'm a programmer that
strives for the best choices and the best/fastest code. If it gets to
the point where a language choice doesn't help the situation, then
sure, upgrade. We've been through all of this, and you still can't
accept or understand it.
> >> you still don't get it. sorry.
>
> NK> Don't apologize because you feel the need to accuse people of
> not NK> getting it because you can't handle someone disagreeing with
> you.
>
> that sorry is in sympathy, not apology. learn some semantics and
> sarcasm please.
Oh, so the clueless guy feels bad for the guy that gets it, because the
clueless guy can't comprehend what I said or why. Anyway, learn to use
proper grammer and use upper case letters for your proper nouns and
maybe I'll give you a little more credit.
> >> and yes, i have also done those types of programs in c including
> >> a major web crawler for northern light. so i know of something
> >> about development time vs cpu power. can you make the same claim?
> >> me thinks not.
>
> NK> When you use snobby and childish phrases like "me thinks not",
> you NK> might understand why it's difficult putting much faith in
> anything
> NK> you say. I've done plenty of interesting and large scale
> projects
> NK> over the years. I don't care what you've done, you're either
> NK> right or wrong about your views, or there's only room for
> opinion
> NK> if there's no actual right or wrong. In this case, I believe
> you
> NK> are wrong. You believe I'm wrong. This is going to get us
> NK> somewhere by repeating what we think of each other? By the way,
> I NK> think your "shift" key is broken.
>
> ME THINKS THOU DOTH NOT GET THE JOKE IS ON YOU. emacs upcase-word to
> the rescue!
It figures you'd not "get" what was meant about your shift key. So,
it's either all caps or no caps. Good for you.
>
> NK> I actually do, I just don't agree with your arrogant attitude.
> >>
> >> no you are ignorant, vs my experience. NYAH NYAH NYAH!
>
> NK> Hey, that's you doing that, not me. You have no idea what I've
> done, NK> and you base your attempts at insult on the fact that you
> don't like my
> NK> disagreement with you. Instead of reading what I said, you'd
> rather NK> try and rail on me about things by saying how much more
> experienced you
> NK> are. The only thing you've actually illustrated, is that you're
> at the
> NK> very least not socially mature and you're arrogant. That
> doesn't mean NK> a flippin' thing to me.
>
> nah, i base my insult on how you don't see the big vs little issue
> here.
You're pathetic. In fact, your rationalizations and reactions here are
actually making me start to worry about just how good or bad your
module can really is, since you've mentioned it. If you're so dense
that you can't get this and are such a prick about it, you just can't
be very good at your job.
> and you haven't shown any real world experience in either
> scaling nor fast code. put up or shut up as they say. but i am having
> fun with you. please keep it up.
I'm not going to list companies or projects to cater to you, because
it's irrelevant and I don't owe you anything. None of that has any
relation to this topic. Who you've worked for or what you've done
doesn't mean you can list off things and that it somehow means you're
right about an unrelated matter. I could list some things, and even
you would maybe be impressed, but it wouldn't make what I say any more
or any less correct. When you figure that out and stop with the
arrogant nonsense, you're welcome to discuss the topic like a civil
person.
> >> now i will predict you will call me some more names. please do as
> >> it will validate my ESP powers.
>
> NK> Your ESP powers suck, I never called you a name. So, you're
> NK> resorting to claiming knowing someone's knowledge, experience
> and
> NK> what they've said to try and save face? What's the purpose?
> You NK> think you own this damn group and you feel some need to
> throw a NK> tantrum, or are you foolish enough to think that my
> interpretation NK> that you're arrogant and ignorant (too stubborn
> to accept anything NK> anyone says because you would rather fight
> with them to tell them NK> how smart you think you are), is somehow
> name calling... and if NK> so, if you somehow think it's okay for
> you to call other people NK> clueless and ignorant?
>
> wow, my ESP worked! you fell for my trap and replied with more
> silliness and weak insults. in fact this trap always works like peanut
> butter in a mousetrap.
You are a seriously confused individual.
> >> check out my cpan modules.
>
> NK> I've seen them.
>
> >> try to make them faster. please do and send
> >> me patches.
>
> NK> I've not ever claimed I would or could make your modules
> NK> faster. Maybe I can, and maybe I can't. My point was about how
> NK> some compiled languages compared to some interpreted languages,
> NK> are going to be faster running and more efficient. Assuming
> both
> NK> examples are done by qualified developers. You claim that based
> NK> on that information that it's more appropriate to just use an
> NK> interpreted language and get a faster system to run it on (if
> NK> there's a problem with the program's speed), rather than having
> NK> someone develop the program in a compiled language like C.
> That's
> NK> ridiculous. I agreed that in a lot of cases, that might be
> fine, NK> there's nothing wrong with Perl, for example.
>
> you still don't get the cost difference.
I do, it is you that doesn't.
> i have done large projects in
> c and perl.
And you clearly don't know C well.
> i don't do c anymore.
Good, because you aren't very good at development in it. Stick to Perl.
> but you won't understand why since
> you haven't done such things.
I have. You just saying I haven't because you want to claim it to try
and win some fight with someone on usenet, doesn't actually make it
true. You're sad.
> most of my time in c was wasted doing
> mundane and boring and nitpicky shit that perl does for me.
Irrelevant.
> but i
> won't go further in explaining this to you. i might as well convince
> guido to use perl.
You don't need to convince me of anything, I use Perl as well. You're
not making a valid point.
> NK> You can keep stuffing bigger engines in there, until you run out
> of NK> engine compartment room and then start looking at bigger
> trucks, but if NK> it's going to actually be cheaper (yes, it's
> true) to start producing NK> the more efficient (by size and weight)
> product in the same or less
> NK> time, I'd go for the latter. Maybe it's my "inexperienced" and
> NK> "younger" attitude, but it makes sense to me. I repeat, it's
> not that NK> simple for every situation, so don't start making broad
> statements and NK> acting like that blanket statement is somehow a
> "fact" or that people NK> whom state that "this isn't always the
> case" and that "other variables NK> play a role" in those decisions,
> are somehow the "ignorant" one's that NK> "don't get it", because,
> honest to God, no matter how much you go on NK> about your
> experience, your modules or what you've done, it makes you NK> look
> like an arrogant asshole that's too stubborn to accept another
> NK> view point, which in the end makes you look stupid. Instead of
> being NK> civil and asking me to elaborate or provide an example, or
> you actually
> NK> bothering to do the same, you resort to touting yourself. Well,
> you NK> don't impress me.
>
> i don't want to impress you.
But you sure try to. Don't worry, there's no threat of that happening.
> i want to troll you.
I agree, you're being a troll.
> and i am being
> explicit. and if you reply again, you will be falling into the trap
> again.
Am I supposed to believe that I'm being a sucker if I fall into the trap
of replying to you, yet you're better than me even as you continue to
reply to me?
> you don't have a leg to stand on here.
Your arrogance is pathetic and misplaced.
> you don't know enough
> about cpu vs developer costs nor scaling nor program speed.
Just saying nonsense insults because you're lost a fight with someone on
usenet doesn't make it true. Of course, you're too smug to realize
this. That's probably why you can't accept anyone disagreeing with you
and that's why you'll never learn. It's good that you stick to what
you know, because you sound like a problem developer in any other
language,
> it is
> called systems architecture (which happens to be the name of my corp,
> sysarch!
> :).
Not that I'd ever do business with a clueless and arrogant person like
you, but I'll be sure to stay clear. Thanks.
> >> i will use them (if you can but you can't) and even give
> >> you all the credit.
>
> NK> I don't give a damn about you or your challenges. I know you
> like NK> to think you're a big shot, as evidenced by your attitude
> in this
> NK> group over years. I look past it, because you offer insightful
> NK> and good code fixes for people or ideas, but that doesn't make
> you NK> the smartest and most experienced person here about any and
> every
> NK> topic, and this one here is proof of that. Instead of listening
> NK> to what I said, you revert to what you've just done. I don't
> NK> think you're an idiot, but if you can't understand what I've
> said, NK> ask for clarification and don't be so hostile, or maybe
> consider a NK> different aspect and view of the topic's subject, or
> maybe
> NK> reconsider just how smart you think you are? Maybe for kicks
> I'll NK> check out your modules and maybe I'll make improvement
> NK> suggestions, and maybe I won't find any or think it's the best
> NK> code I've ever seen, but that still doesn't mean jack regarding
> NK> the topic at hand.
>
> i am not a big shot.
Damn right you're not.
> i am just a very skilled and confident software
> engineer
I beg to differ. If you don't get what I said, then you're a sloppy,
inefficient coder, at least in C anyway.
> with many successful projects in a wide range of areas.
You're not the only clueless, arrogant and stubborn jerk out there
that's done something. People that have done more than you also
disagree with your concepts.
> this
> gives me the real world experience to talk about subjects such as cpu
> vs developer costs. simple as that.
I've done many things as well. People other than me have as well, many
people. Those people also disagree with your methods and rules of
thumb. You're not the only one with real world experience and not
everyone that has it agrees with you. Simple as that.
> >> boo hoo. you seem to be fighting for no reason.
>
> NK> You need to get a grip and grow up. Also, try looking in a
> mirror. NK> There's no reason to be such a jerk because someone made
> a point you
> NK> don't agree with. This is ridiculous.
>
> no, you are ridiculous.
I know you are, but what am I?
> you have been trolled over and over.
Ugh. You saying you're trolling is supposed to mean something?
> i can
> argue your side better than you can.
No, you just think you can, which goes further to explain your arrogant
attitude. You don't realize how pathetic that is.
> lawyers do that all the time. the
> point is i choose which side i want to be on and play with you like a
> kitten and a string. meow!!
Right, if I reply to you, I'm some puppet dancing to your will, but if
you reply to me, it's because you're *not* a puppet? Anyway, I know
this is just us arguing with each other, so we both look stupid.
However, unlike "choosing a side" arbitrarily, I happen to opt for the
side that is correct and make points with merit. You, just think you
are special and I think your actions here are suspect and weird.
Somehow, you think it makes you look smarter or something.
> NK> What sort of jerk would just continue to claim someone doesn't
> "get it"
> NK> and not bother making their point? All you're doing is fighting
> with
> NK> me, which is ironic that you accuse me of just doing only that.
> You NK> really think you're someone special.
>
> because you keep arguing for no reason.
You reply to me and say I'm wrong, I reply and explain how I'm not
wrong. When someone accuses you and you reply, apparently you are
replying for no reason? How dumb are you?
> you won't win,
Of course I won't "win", because you are intent on dismissing anything I
say and want to just mindlessly ramble on about how I'm wrong, among
other misplaced accusations. On the other hand, you won't win either.
> no one else is
> defending your weak point
You mean out of the whole THREE people in total whom commented on this
topic? Who cares?
> and you don't have the experience to defend
> it yourself.
I do, and I find it interesting that you continue to claim this because
you have no leg to stand on. Honestly, it's sad. You can't help but
convince yourself that if I don't agree with you, that I lack the
experience to disagree with you. Don't you think that's a pretty good
indication that you're being a bit too arrogant?
> >> MMM to the rescue. please read it. i think they have a version
> >> written in 4th grade level english for you.
>
> NK> And, by the way, I've read plenty of MMM, I've even got the book
> NK> and everything. I have about 200 books that get into complex
> NK> things, I've read them and understand them. I've applied and
> used
>
> cat in the hat books don't count!
That's the best you can come up with? How about the fact I have read
MMM and still don't agree with you? How about the fact I have
experience to debate this with you and you chose to dismiss it and make
further insults about maturity, all while you're acting like a child?
> NK> the information and am able to formulate new ideas and theories
> NK> and test them and create and do. Yet, somehow your opinion
> isn't NK> something I agree with, so that makes me clueless to the
> point NK> where you feel it's an appropriate reaction to reply to me
> with NK> insults and accusations about my experience and knowledge,
> yet you
> NK> know nothing about me. The only thing this really tells me, is
>
> you are what you post here.
Yes, that is true, which explains why I don't feel you've added any
value at all to this thread. I get it, you're a smug asshole that has
reached his prime back about 15 years ago and whatever you think is the
way it is in your mind, and you'll fight tooth and nail with anyone
that disagrees with you, regardless of how valid and true their points
are. In fact, you'll even resort to making wild accusations, all
because someone doesn't agree with you or put up with your BS. You
think those are endearing qualities? Guess what, they aren't, and I
WILL put you in your place every time.
> NK> Some are more careless and foolish than others (duh)
>
> speak for yourself!
Oh dear, you just aren't any good at this.
> >> well, then you get to manage a group of perfect coders who all do
> >> what you want to do in zero time (just like
> >> Quantum::Superpostions! :).
>
> NK> All sarcasm aside (can you manage to do that?) one needn't be a
> NK> perfect coder, just qualified and good. A bad coder or one
> that's NK> considered closer or further to or from being "perfect"
> doesn't
> NK> matter what language it is. The point was, your argument that
> NK> someone it would increase development time so severely by not
> just NK> "getting a faster system to solve the problem", was why
> it's a
> NK> "good rule of thumb". Untrue. So, do you make these decisions
> NK> based on your lack of experience and skills in another language,
> NK> or because you can't chose actual qualified programmers, or out
> of NK> desperation, or just because that's the gap that closes you
> and NK> your code?
>
> you still don't get it.
No, YOU still don't get it. Hey, maybe if you say it enough times,
it'll come true?
> cost is the issue. pure and simple.
Indeed, if cost is the only issue, it could be true that a faster system
is the solution. However, that's not always the case. Deal with that
fact. Also, you need to consider that maybe you lack experience in
languages like C if you believe that development costs for the same
program coded in C and running more efficiently/faster are somehow cost
prohibitive in every situation. They are not.
> you can
> budget for more cpu better than you can budget for more and better
> coders.
And that's the problem with a shitty coder's attitude that you have.
Anyone should strive to have the best coders and best code that's
within reason. And, no, that doesn't mean people should extend the
project's development time or be unreasonable about nitpicking. Only a
complete idiot would think that budgeting more CPU is a better idea
than having qualified coders that can complete the project on time.
You think you're a big shot pro coder, but that relentless and hostile
outlook on this matter by you, where you have to insult people that say
that perhaps sometimes it's not always the best solution to just throw
more CPU at a code problem, shows you are far from what you think you
are. You're such an arrogant jerk, that you'll never accept it anyway,
so why are you here? Oh right, to troll. Oh, you're such a fun guy.
> NK> Apparently, if I say a good C coder with modules, libraries,
> code NK> and function templates (which any good C coder would have)
> can NK> develop just as efficiently as someone in Perl, you read
> that as NK> "they do what you want in zero time". Apparently, you're
> so NK> arrogant that you can't accept that some people have
> different NK> experiences and opinions, else NOW they also live in a
> fantasy
> NK> world or lack "real world experience". You're really something.
> NK> Think you might be going a little too far in your ranting there?
>
> i see london, i see france, i see you in your under-rants!
Hey, whatever you do, be sure to dismiss anything I say, because you
can't handle people making a valid point. So far, so good. I'd hate
to see you deviate from your attitude and disappoint me.
> >> as for my business it is recruiting and placing perl developers.
>
> NK> And now I feel sorry for a group of people I've never met.
>
> too bad. some of the best perl hackers in the world have used me for
> an agent.
That is absolutely irrelevant. I get you think highly of yourself, but
I honestly don't care. If you're too stupid to understand this subject
and my view without going nuts and trolling in response, then I can
only say that you might be good at Perl, but that sounds to be about
it. Notice I didn't resort to your reaction and start saying you suck
at Perl. However, I honestly and starting to wonder about some things.
Also, notice no one high up in the C coding world has done this same
thing for you, and that should say something. Just because you might
be a good Perl coder doesn't mean you know everything. One day, when
you mature and lose a little of the arrogance, you'll understand that,
Billy.
> like i said, you won't be one of them.
Like I care? I'd never want to work for or with you in any capacity
(like I said). You are so scummy, that you'd continue to verbalize
such feelings about someone, because they don't agree with you, and
it's ironic that I don't care, yet you continue to go on about it.
Guess what? I DON'T CARE. I don't give a damn how important you think
you are. Anyway, I doubt that what you think matters (I know it
certainly doesn't matter to me).
> NK> And you get the impression I'd WANT to send you my resume or
> work with
> NK> or for someone like YOU in ANY capacity? Don't flatter
> yourself.
> NK> You're not keeping me from any work. You give yourself far too
> much NK> credit and influence points.
>
> i never said i had influence to stop you from working.
No, you didn't, but you eluded to it, if it was within your network.
You furether went on to say that you do Perl job placement and would
never place me, which is pretty much the same thing. Again, I swear to
God that I don't care, so there's no reason to discuss that any
further.
> i wouldn't even
> do that if i could.
Yeah, sure you wouldn't.
> i just wouldn't represent someone with such a
> narrow view of things,
Oh my God, that's EXACTLY what I was thinking about you!
> who can't properly argue a point,
Oh my God, that's EXACTLY what I was thinking about you!
> who can't see
> the forest for the trees,
Oh my God, that's EXACTLY what I was thinking about you!
> who can't be flexible in thought.
Oh my God, that's EXACTLY what I was thinking about you! And even more
to the point, is that I myself said that sometimes upgrading a system
is the right solution, but "just not always", and this is the entire
reason you're fighting with me, yet you can't accept it to the point
where you do, well, you do what you've done in this thread, and it's so
pitifully ironic that you use that as a basis to say that I am the one
that is unable to be "flexible in thought". Honestly, that's just sad.
> >> claiming you know all this but not understanding it is not a
> >> skill i would promote to my clients.
>
> NK> I honest to God think you're clueless about this subject, or
> NK> you're just such an arrogant jerk that this is just standard
> NK> operating procedure for you.
>
> you keep saying arrogant jerk.
And somehow you keep acting like an arrogant jerk. Wow, the variables
in this equation are fascinating.
> i don't think you know what that
> means. INCONCEIVABLE!
Uh... Okay then.
> >> have the appropriate amount of fun!
>
> NK> Don't worry, I know nothing I said will get through that thick
> layer of
> NK> smugness. Not that I usually care, it's not abnormal to see on
> usenet,
> NK> but you've not earned nor deserve getting away with it. You're
> just an NK> impossible jerk, but I know you won't let anything I say
> change your
> NK> mind or attitude. Feel free to claim I suffer from whatever
> other lack NK> of skills or experience you need to, to make you feel
> better and more NK> important about yourself, but you've not really
> come out on top of
> NK> anything. In the future, try and understand why someone's not
> going to NK> put up with your smugness and arrogance and don't hold
> it against them, NK> especially when you're wrong.
>
> my smugness is a thin layer.
Hardly. It's as thick as it gets.
> on the other hand, your rectum is
> occupied by your cranium! get a cerebral enema soon! ta ta!
Oh, what a great comeback. Just as long as you don't actually make any
valid points or disprove anything I said. I think you're safe for
another post.
> uri
nal cake
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:21:04 -0400
From: Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
Subject: Re: Perl is too slow - A statement
Message-Id: <87r5zagd7j.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
ignored. like i should have done earlier. you keep falling for my
trolling.
buh bye!
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
--------- Free Perl Training --- http://perlhunter.com/college.html ---------
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:31:05 -0700
From: Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml>
Subject: Re: Perl is too slow - A statement
Message-Id: <30nKl.213$BX.68@newsfe18.iad>
Uri Guttman wrote:
>
> ignored. like i should have done earlier. you keep falling for my
> trolling.
Again, you want to act like I'm an idiot (or dancing puppet) for
replying to your posts to me, yet you reply to mine. That's a poor
method to try and make me look bad. Seriously, that's another
indication of your arrogance going too far. Try and act like someone's
a fool for doing what you are doing yourself. I honestly don't think
you're as special as you think you are.
Maybe, at least, consider practicing what you preach. Also, it's
probably a good bet to make a valid point if you're going to argue with
someone, instad of going on about how wonderfully skilled you think you
are and how you think that being good at Perl means that you're right
about any topic in the world, even when you're wrong. Oh yeah, I guess
that means I'm really "falling for it". *sigh* Honestly, that's just
freaking weird and sad.
> buh bye!
Good riddance... if you really mean it.
> uri
nal cake
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:32:10 -0700
From: Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Posting to perl.beginners via google groups
Message-Id: <qt3pc6xmj4.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
On 2009-04-30, Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml> wrote:
[snip]
> where other groups like Linux related one's, Apache,
> PHP, webmaster groups, etc. are getting maybe 10 posts a day at most,
> where a few years ago they were getting hundreds per day.
Well, perhaps, perhaps no. I looked at comp.os.linux.misc in two
different ways: through my own newsreader, and through a Google groups
search.
As for your raw numbers, I'd have to question your claim that they get
maybe 10 posts a day. Yesterday, 29 Apr 2009, my newsreader counted at
least 35 legitimate posts to comp.os.linux.misc. Many more were killed
by my scorefile for excessive crossposting. And that's just one of many
groups in the comp.os.linux.* hierarchy; we're not even counting the
many different alt.os.linux.* newsgroups. (The Slackware newsgroup
alone probably gets 10-20 legitimate posts a day.)
As for your comparison from years ago, that may have some teeth: for
yesterday, it reports 375 posts to comp.os.linux.misc; for that same
data in 2004 it reports over 1200. I would counter that, 20 or 30 years
ago (before my time on usenet), there were many fewer posts, and so
sheer number of posts is not necessarily an indicator of impending doom.
Indeed, Google groups reports about 3200 posts for all of comp.os.* on
the same date in 1990. I would also counter that quantity of posts is
not necessarily proportional to quality.
(Now that I look more closely, I suspect that these numbers are greatly
inflated; it seems like Google is counting every post in every thread
where there was a post to the thread on that date. So my count is
probably more accurate in terms of number, but Google is probably fine
to use to see trends in posting rates. But obviously you'd want to take
these numbers with a few ounces of salt.)
> If I had a nickel for every time someone inaccurately
> claimed usenet wasn't dying... Anyway, I'd say "Let's take a bet and
> post here again in 10 years", but I'm betting usenet is potentially
> completely gone by then, and maybe sooner.
I'll take that bet. I think usenet will still be around in 10 years.
People have been predicting its imminent death for at least that long.
And, perhaps, it will actually improve, as the typical usenet abusers
lose access, while those who are stronger contributors maintain their
feed.
--keith
--
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:22:17 -0700
From: Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml>
Subject: Re: Posting to perl.beginners via google groups
Message-Id: <u%lKl.135$Rf7.14@newsfe21.iad>
Keith Keller wrote:
> On 2009-04-30, Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> where other groups like Linux related one's, Apache,
>> PHP, webmaster groups, etc. are getting maybe 10 posts a day at most,
>> where a few years ago they were getting hundreds per day.
>
>
> Well, perhaps, perhaps no. I looked at comp.os.linux.misc in two
> different ways: through my own newsreader, and through a Google groups
> search.
>
> As for your raw numbers, I'd have to question your claim that they get
> maybe 10 posts a day. Yesterday, 29 Apr 2009, my newsreader counted
> at
> least 35 legitimate posts to comp.os.linux.misc.
I show 13 new posts today in that group, which I frequent. If you don't
believe what I say, I can't exactly discuss or debate the issue. If
you frequented it before several years ago and do now, you'd see a
marked difference. The same with this group (comp.lang.perl.misc) and
the same with groups like alt.www.webmaster. There's really no
questioning the matter. I don't claim to know where it's going for
sure, but with Internet providers dropping usenet altogether and most
that still provide it outsourcing it, I really don't see it getting
more popular. To me, the significant and steady drop over the years is
pretty clear, but there's always people that will disagree no matter
what. Not that it matters, I can take or leave it, but I see it as
dying.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:58:34 -0700
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Posting to perl.beginners via google groups
Message-Id: <p2tjv4t4r4bg2lh1t3os2goq9fq7u31690@4ax.com>
Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml> wrote:
>To me, the significant and steady drop over the years is
>pretty clear, but there's always people that will disagree no matter
>what. Not that it matters, I can take or leave it, but I see it as
>dying.
Maybe the September that never ended will come to an end after all.
I would actually appreciate if AOLers and Googlers would move to a
different medium and leave Usenet for people who actually care.
jue
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:14:17 -0700
From: Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml>
Subject: Re: Posting to perl.beginners via google groups
Message-Id: <eMmKl.4424$BZ3.4086@newsfe12.iad>
Jürgen Exner wrote:
> Nathan Keel <nat.k@gm.ml> wrote:
>>To me, the significant and steady drop over the years is
>>pretty clear, but there's always people that will disagree no matter
>>what. Not that it matters, I can take or leave it, but I see it as
>>dying.
>
> Maybe the September that never ended will come to an end after all.
> I would actually appreciate if AOLers and Googlers would move to a
> different medium and leave Usenet for people who actually care.
>
> jue
That's a valid point. I suppose that if usenet is left to the people
that care, and maybe this less traffic issue is just meaning that
old/long time users are the one's that really stick around and not a
lot of new people, that it doesn't mean it's worse off. However, I see
a lot of old timers going away over time as well, so it just seems to
be less and less overall, for the people we'd like to see stay as well.
Either way, most google group users indeed don't seem to be helping
(regardless of increased activity or not).
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 2382
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