[31021] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2266 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Mar 10 09:09:46 2009
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 06:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 10 Mar 2009 Volume: 11 Number: 2266
Today's topics:
Re: "system" with [ ] in filename <nospam-abuse@ilyaz.org>
Re: Ban Xah Lee <fakemail@xyz.de>
Re: FAQ 9.8 How do I fetch an HTML file? sln@netherlands.com
Re: FAQ 9.8 How do I fetch an HTML file? <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid>
Re: How to convert a floating point number to a 64 bit <syscjm@sumire.gwu.edu>
Re: perl 5.8 or perl 5.10 <stoupa@practisoft.cz>
Perl and Gnuplot questions Mar. 10, 2009 <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Perl training ... <schaitan@gmail.com>
Re: Perl training ... <cartercc@gmail.com>
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:08:46 GMT
From: Ilya Zakharevich <nospam-abuse@ilyaz.org>
Subject: Re: "system" with [ ] in filename
Message-Id: <slrngrcf1e.pkf.nospam-abuse@chorin.math.berkeley.edu>
On 2009-03-08, Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>
> Quoth Ilya Zakharevich <nospam-abuse@ilyaz.org>:
>> On 2009-03-07, Peter J. Holzer <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at> wrote:
>> > attempt to quote ... *correctly*". I.e., what Ben tried to express is
>> > that it will quote, and that the quoting does attempt to preserve all
>> > arguments exactly but that this may not be possible in some cases (which
>> > seems unavoidable to me: If the parsing is done by each program instead
>> > of by a shell, each program may use different quoting conventions, so
>> > system would have to know the quoting conventions of each specific
>> > program).
>>
>> Quoting is done by C runtime.
>
> No it's not. It's done by win32.c:create_command_line.
Really??? Hmm, I knew that Perl development goes down the drain now,
but I would not expect this...
> know. For another, the code makes no attempt to quote arguments with
> special characters other than space in, so presumably
With *correct* design, only whitespace, quote char and backslash need
to be treated specially. The code you discuss looks like they want to
use SHELL for multi-arg system().
I sincerely hope that this is not the main branch of the
implementation of system(), and is used only if the command is not
found on PATH!
> The code in there
> is sufficiently convoluted, and contains a sufficient number of comments
> about things not working entirely as documented, as to make me very
> unsure of its correctness in every case. For a simple example, it
> appears to me from the code that
>
> system q/echo/, q/"foo"/;
>
> does the same as
>
> system q/echo/, q/foo/;
>
> which is absolutely not the case under argc/argv systems
Did you try it? Remove echo executable from path, and try this on
UNIX. The result is going to be the same.
Likewise, I sincerely hope that if echo.exe is present on PATH on
windows system, their behavior is different on Windows (again, same as
on UNIX)...
>> a) "quoted" 1-arg system() is NOT equivalent to multi-arg system()
>> (but, given enough intelligence, it MIGHT be possible to give the
>> final result of running these to be the same -- however, I do not
>> remember anyone implementing this);
>
> MakeMaker's MM->quote_literal is a decent attempt at a cross-platform
> quoter, though it has some oddities to do with passing through make
> variables.
There is ABSOLUTELY no way to do cross-platform quoting. To have a
SINGLE PLATFORM quoting is supposed to go through shell, you need to
have the complete documentation of how the shell treats its metachars.
I would be very surprised if CMD.EXE had such documentation (even IF
its behaviour would NOT depend on the version of CMD.EXE and a lot of
configuration variables [same shit as with tcsh]).
>> b) You assume that it is humanly possible for "an application
>> programmer" to do it correctly. I do not think this is a
>> practically meaningful assumption.
> It's obviously possible to get any given case right.
For me, it is obviuosly impossible without a lot of knowledge (unless
you assume Bourne semantic, which was SPECIALLY designed to allow
simple quoting)
s/'/'"'"'/g for @foo;
q(') . join(q[' '], @foo) . q(').
All other cases (including csh derivatives) are, AFAIK, hopeless to
get bullet-proof.
> My point was that even multi-arg system still isn't *safe* under Win32,
> and still doesn't guarantee cmd.exe (and/or whatever you've got in
> %PERL5SHELL%) won't be invoked.
It was always my POV that
*) multi-arg system() should NEVER involve shell (the programmer
can, of course, prepend $ENV{COMPSEC}, q(/c) to the @args), AND
*) that one should a port of Bourne shell (and default to it for
one-arg system()) on all non-UNIXISH platforms.
(This is what I do on OS/2 port I maintain.) As you see, this POV was
consistently ignored...
Thanks for correcting me,
Ilya
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:03:57 +0100
From: Christian <fakemail@xyz.de>
Subject: Re: Ban Xah Lee
Message-Id: <49b64935$0$6110$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Xah Lee schrieb:
> Christian <fakem...@xyz.de> wrote:
>
> On Mar 9, 1:22 pm, Christian <fakem...@xyz.de> wrote:
>> XahLeeschrieb:> Of interest:
>>
>>> • Why Can't You Be Normal?
>>> http://xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/why_cant_you_be_normal.html
>> IMHO the point that you never reply to responds is what makes it
>> problematic.
>> I have seen 10 or more threads started by you and in not a single one
>> of those I have seen any sort of second post by you.
>>
>> Also the other thing that makes you appear like a troll is that the
>> only posts where you are visible on the usenet are your own!
>>
>> Usenet is there for discussion. What you do seems to be mostly doing a
>> often highly intelligent monologue and awaiting comment on it.
>>
>> Its not the purpose of Usenet. Simply calling you a troll is wrong.
>> You are after all better than that. Though I think you are misusing the
>> Usenet. For what you do you should rather write a weblog so people
>> interested in your monologues could follow them in a place where they
>> are by definition on topic.
>>
>> Christian
>
> In the article you quoted:
> http://xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/why_cant_you_be_normal.html
>
> contains this passage:
>
> «
> Some people says that i don't participate in discussion, and this is
> part of the reason they think i'm a so-called “troll”. Actually i do,
> and read every reply to my post, as well have replied to technical
> questions other posted. Most replies to my posts are attacks or
> trivial (of few sentences) i don't consider worthy to reply.
>
> A few, maybe 10% replies to my unconventional posts, i consider having
> some value. But if i don't have sufficiently remarkable opinion on
> what they remarked, i don't reply. Also, if all i wanted to say is
> “thanks”, i tend to avoid posting such trivial posts too. (i used to
> reply by personal email in such cases, I still do sometimes now, but
> today that can be considered intrusive.)
> »
I have read the passage though the 10% replies does not reflect my own
experience with your posts. Thats why I pointed out that you never reply
to the posts, at least not to the ones I have seen.
>
> Truly Your Superior,
>
Do you really think that of yourself? Now I really am disappointed of you.
Christian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:26:44 GMT
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Re: FAQ 9.8 How do I fetch an HTML file?
Message-Id: <kv8cr4l0kukd80ou3veh2ivmoqv2qlrt99@4ax.com>
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:46:46 -0700, Larry Gates <larry@example.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 23:16:31 -0500, Tad J McClellan wrote:
>
>> Larry Gates <larry@example.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:44:26 -0500, Tad J McClellan wrote:
>
>>> Why do we not see the img tags around "my bike is a pretzel"?
>>
>>
>> Why do you think that you should see img tags around "my bike is a pretzel"?
>>
>> Have you read the documentation for the modules that you are using?
>>
>> We are not a "read the docs to me" service.
>>
>> perldoc HTML::FormatText
>
>I didn't know this existed. I hope you don't think that I'm asking you to
>read for me.
>
[snip bullshit]
Just what are you asking for a "blow - job?"
-sln
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:06:36 +0000
From: RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid>
Subject: Re: FAQ 9.8 How do I fetch an HTML file?
Message-Id: <49b63bb0$0$16171$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
Larry Gates wrote:
> use HTML::TreeBuilder;
...
> my $t = "http://www.lomas-assault.net";
...
> my $tree1 = HTML::TreeBuilder->new_from_content($t);
...
> $tree1->dump;
..
>
> Q1) Can someone comment on how perl's appraisal of this site looks nothing
> like html?
When you write "perl" I think you mean "HTML::TreeBuilder".
If so, I imagine the reason the dump output looks more like a syntax
tree than HTML is because "This class is for HTML syntax trees that get
built out of HTML source." (according to `perldoc HTML::TreeBuilder`).
Having built a syntax tree and dumped it, I'd expect to see a syntax
tree. YMMV.
--
RGB
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:28:23 -0500
From: Chris Mattern <syscjm@sumire.gwu.edu>
Subject: Re: How to convert a floating point number to a 64 bit integer?
Message-Id: <slrngrcn77.jg2.syscjm@sumire.gwu.edu>
On 2009-03-09, SamL <slsamliu@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 3:04pm, Ben Morrow <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>> Quoth SamL <slsam...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> > I need to convert a floating point number to a 64 bit integer (long
>> > long). How to do that in perl? Thanks.
>>
>> You will need to specify a little more about where these numbers are
>> coming from. Probably you want perldoc -f pack.
>>
>> Ben
>
> The number comes from calculation. For example:
>
> my $a = 2.0**37;
>
> Here I cannot use 2**37 directly since the result is -1.
use bignum;
will make it work right by using long integers.
>
> I have found a way to "convert" it although I think there should be a
> better way:
>
> my $b = sprintf ("%.0f", $a);
>
--
Christopher Mattern
NOTICE
Thank you for noticing this new notice
Your noticing it has been noted
And will be reported to the authorities
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:56:12 +0100
From: "Petr Vileta \"fidokomik\"" <stoupa@practisoft.cz>
Subject: Re: perl 5.8 or perl 5.10
Message-Id: <gp5kuj$1ddd$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
Ben Morrow wrote:
> Quoth "Petr Vileta \"fidokomik\"" <stoupa@practisoft.cz>:
>> The question is which verson of Perl to install. Perl 5.8 or Perl
>> 5.10? Version
>>
>> What do you recommend me? Which version and why?
>
> If you can wait a while I would recommend using 5.10.1 when it comes
> out. There were indeed a few rough edges with 5.10 which have since
> been corrected. Otherwise, you should be aware that 5.8.9 is
> officially the last release on the 5.8 track, excepting major
> security holes: I expect that fairly soon p5p will consider 5.8
> 'somewhat unsupported' the way
> 5.6 has been for some time.
>
Heh, really nice :-)
Perl 5.6 - obsolete
Perl 5.8 - somewhat unsupported
Perl 5.10 - somewhat still bugy Alpha
What is an official "Latest stable" version by perl.org meaning? I'm searching,
googling, but answer I not found.
> Of course, I don't speak for p5p in any capacity.
>
English is my second language, please what is "p5p" ?
--
Petr Vileta, Czech republic
(My server rejects all messages from Yahoo and Hotmail.
Send me your mail from another non-spammer site please.)
Please reply to <petr AT practisoft DOT cz>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 04:36:31 -0500
From: "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Perl and Gnuplot questions Mar. 10, 2009
Message-Id: <QJydnfLoeYMIqSvUnZ2dnUVZ_szinZ2d@earthlink.com>
PERL AND GNUPLOT QUESTIONS
http://www.meteoquake.org/
http://www.meteoquake.org/indexa11ed.html
http://www.freewebz.com/eq-forecasting/Etdprog.html
A freeware earthquake forecasting Perl language - Gnuplot graphics (Windows
Vista, XP, 2000, or NT) computer program is now available for downloads. To
see how it works, go to any of the above Web pages and follow the download
links to either of two Etdprog.html Web pages where download links for the
program are stored. The Perl language source code for an earlier version of
the program can also be found in an Archive.zip file at the Meteoquake Web
site.
Notices regarding the program were circulated around the world on March 8,
2009. One was posted to the sci.geo.earthquakes Newsgroup. Another notice
regarding the program is scheduled to be posted to a number of computer
language Newsgroups, probably some time later this week.
QUESTIONS:
1. PERL - The Perl language program alternates between the use of the
IsKeyPressed and readline STDIN statements for input depending on what mode
it is in. When graphics are being displayed it uses IsKeyPressed.
The problem is that at times when it switches from IsKeyPressed to readline
for input a single letter or space remains on the input line. My best guess
is that it was stored in a Windows keyboard buffer. And it causes some
confusion because it is entered as data if it is not removed with the
BackSpace key.
Is there some way to instruct Perl to get rid of that letter or space before
the readline statement is used?
In these early versions of the computer program I don't want to have to use
the SendKeys statement.
2. GNUPLOT - How well are the Gnuplot routines for jpg and gif picture
file generation working?
The last time I tried using Gnuplot to automatically create gif files, some
of the data that would display on the computer screen did not appear in the
gif file.
Is that a known problem? Or does it simply have something to do with the
way Gnuplot is instructed to print the data to the file?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:17:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krishna Chaitanya <schaitan@gmail.com>
Subject: Perl training ...
Message-Id: <06cdd733-1199-48ad-987c-3bd8d0653567@p36g2000prp.googlegroups.com>
Hi all, I'm looking for an online training program for Perl ..... from
beginner to advanced ... do you know of such good & reliable courses?
Also, what in your thought is necessary for an experienced but non-
computer-graduate programmer to do to take their skills to the next
level...? A full-time college degree is nice but not often practical
due to difficulty in obtaining leave (esp. in recession times like
these) .... any "home remedies" ?
I've tried reading documents and tutorials on websites and books but
more often than not, I get bogged down by a lot of unfamiliar terms
from computer science and end up googling for hours on end on these
terms and definitions....it takes an awful lot of time to get around
to understanding the main issue that I began researching on...any help
or insight would be great!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 05:59:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Perl training ...
Message-Id: <a3cda21c-a11c-42ed-99fb-961a4a9d61e5@e24g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>
On Mar 10, 6:17=A0am, Krishna Chaitanya <schai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all, I'm looking for an online training program for Perl ..... from
> beginner to advanced ... do you know of such good & reliable courses?
In my very humble opinion, you will mostly waste both your money and
your time by taking courses. The ONLY way you learn a technology is to
use it. After you have used a technology and know it fairly well,
training courses will help, but I certainly wouldn't expect a training
course to necessarily 'teach' a person to use a technology.
> Also, what in your thought is necessary for an experienced but non-
> computer-graduate programmer to do to take their skills to the next
> level...?
Using the technology. Using it a lot. Using it every day for a period
of years. Using it for many different things. When you use a language,
you will run into problems, then you study and think about how to
solve the problem, and SOLVING THE PROBLEM will take you to the next
level. You don't rise by never solving problems.
> A full-time college degree is nice but not often practical
> due to difficulty in obtaining leave (esp. in recession times like
> these) .... any "home remedies" ?
Yes. Program in the language, use it every day, use it to create
solutions for real problems. When it comes to it, and you need to
'prove' your mastery of a language, the entry level of evidence is the
degree, the novice level are various certifications (e.g., MCSD), the
journeyman level is a proven track record in holding a job, and the
master's level is code that you've written that works.
> I've tried reading documents and tutorials on websites and books but
> more often than not, I get bogged down by a lot of unfamiliar terms
> from computer science and end up googling for hours on end on these
> terms and definitions....it takes an awful lot of time to get around
> to understanding the main issue that I began researching on...any help
> or insight would be great!
Yeah, like what a closure is, or a call back, or the difference
between a variable and a reference. Don't worry about these things,
but get your hands dirty using the language. You won't learn it unless
you practice it a lot, same as with playing a musical instrument, or
riding a bicycle, or cooking, or playing golf. You don't learn these
things by reading a book or taking a course, but by doing them.
My advice: spend four hours a day writing in a language for four
years. Then you will no longer be a novice but a competent programmer.
CC
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:17:28 GMT
From: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Subject: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
Message-Id: <cuotl.12089$hc1.4244@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>
Outline
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
- Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
Really Really Should
- Lurk for a while before posting
- Search a Usenet archive
If You Like
- Check Other Resources
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Is there a better place to ask your question?
- Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
- Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
- Use an effective followup style
- Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
- Ask perl to help you
- Do not re-type Perl code
- Provide enough information
- Do not provide too much information
- Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
Social faux pas to avoid
- Asking a Frequently Asked Question
- Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
- Asking for emailed answers
- Beware of saying "doesn't work"
- Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
Be extra cautious when you get upset
- Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
- Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
This newsgroup, commonly called clpmisc, is a technical newsgroup
intended to be used for discussion of Perl related issues (except job
postings), whether it be comments or questions.
As you would expect, clpmisc discussions are usually very technical in
nature and there are conventions for conduct in technical newsgroups
going somewhat beyond those in non-technical newsgroups.
The article at:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
describes how to get answers from technical people in general.
This article describes things that you should, and should not, do to
increase your chances of getting an answer to your Perl question. It is
available in POD, HTML and plain text formats at:
http://www.rehabitation.com/clpmisc.shtml
For more information about netiquette in general, see the "Netiquette
Guidelines" at:
http://andrew2.andrew.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc1855.html
A note to newsgroup "regulars":
Do not use these guidelines as a "license to flame" or other
meanness. It is possible that a poster is unaware of things
discussed here. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and just
help them learn how to post, rather than assume that they do
know and are being the "bad kind" of Lazy.
A note about technical terms used here:
In this document, we use words like "must" and "should" as
they're used in technical conversation (such as you will
encounter in this newsgroup). When we say that you *must* do
something, we mean that if you don't do that something, then
it's unlikely that you will benefit much from this group.
We're not bossing you around; we're making the point without
lots of words.
Do *NOT* send email to the maintainer of these guidelines. It will be
discarded unread. The guidelines belong to the newsgroup so all
discussion should appear in the newsgroup. I am just the secretary that
writes down the consensus of the group.
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
This section describes things that you *must* do before posting to
clpmisc, in order to maximize your chances of getting meaningful replies
to your inquiry and to avoid getting flamed for being lazy and trying to
have others do your work.
The perl distribution includes documentation that is copied to your hard
drive when you install perl. Also installed is a program for looking
things up in that (and other) documentation named 'perldoc'.
You should either find out where the docs got installed on your system,
or use perldoc to find them for you. Type "perldoc perldoc" to learn how
to use perldoc itself. Type "perldoc perl" to start reading Perl's
standard documentation.
Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Checking the FAQ before posting is required in Big 8 newsgroups in
general, there is nothing clpmisc-specific about this requirement.
You are expected to do this in nearly all newsgroups.
You can use the "-q" switch with perldoc to do a word search of the
questions in the Perl FAQs.
Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
The perl distribution comes with much more documentation than is
available for most other newsgroups, so in clpmisc you should also
see if you can find an answer in the other (non-FAQ) standard docs
before posting.
It is *not* required, or even expected, that you actually *read* all of
Perl's standard docs, only that you spend a few minutes searching them
before posting.
Try doing a word-search in the standard docs for some words/phrases
taken from your problem statement or from your very carefully worded
"Subject:" header.
Really Really Should
This section describes things that you *really should* do before posting
to clpmisc.
Lurk for a while before posting
This is very important and expected in all newsgroups. Lurking means
to monitor a newsgroup for a period to become familiar with local
customs. Each newsgroup has specific customs and rituals. Knowing
these before you participate will help avoid embarrassing social
situations. Consider yourself to be a foreigner at first!
Search a Usenet archive
There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers. It is very likely
that your question has already been asked (and answered). See if you
can find where it has already been answered.
One such searchable archive is:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search
If You Like
This section describes things that you *can* do before posting to
clpmisc.
Check Other Resources
You may want to check in books or on web sites to see if you can
find the answer to your question.
But you need to consider the source of such information: there are a
lot of very poor Perl books and web sites, and several good ones
too, of course.
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
There can be 200 messages in clpmisc in a single day. Nobody is going to
read every article. They must decide somehow which articles they are
going to read, and which they will skip.
Your post is in competition with 199 other posts. You need to "win"
before a person who can help you will even read your question.
These sections describe how you can help keep your article from being
one of the "skipped" ones.
Is there a better place to ask your question?
Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
It can be difficult to separate out where your problem really is,
but you should make a conscious effort to post to the most
applicable newsgroup. That is, after all, where you are the most
likely to find the people who know how to answer your question.
Being able to "partition" a problem is an essential skill for
effectively troubleshooting programming problems. If you don't get
that right, you end up looking for answers in the wrong places.
It should be understood that you may not know that the root of your
problem is not Perl-related (the two most frequent ones are CGI and
Operating System related), so off-topic postings will happen from
time to time. Be gracious when someone helps you find a better place
to ask your question by pointing you to a more applicable newsgroup.
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
You have 40 precious characters of Subject to win out and be one of
the posts that gets read. Don't waste them. Take care while
composing them, they are the key that opens the door to getting an
answer.
Spend them indicating what aspect of Perl others will find if they
should decide to read your article.
Do not spend them indicating "experience level" (guru, newbie...).
Do not spend them pleading (please read, urgent, help!...).
Do not spend them on non-Subjects (Perl question, one-word
Subject...)
For more information on choosing a Subject see "Choosing Good
Subject Lines":
http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/D/DM/DMR/subjects.post
Part of the beauty of newsgroup dynamics, is that you can contribute
to the community with your very first post! If your choice of
Subject leads a fellow Perler to find the thread you are starting,
then even asking a question helps us all.
Use an effective followup style
When composing a followup, quote only enough text to establish the
context for the comments that you will add. Always indicate who
wrote the quoted material. Never quote an entire article. Never
quote a .signature (unless that is what you are commenting on).
Intersperse your comments *following* each section of quoted text to
which they relate. Unappreciated followup styles are referred to as
"top-posting", "Jeopardy" (because the answer comes before the
question), or "TOFU" (Text Over, Fullquote Under).
Reversing the chronology of the dialog makes it much harder to
understand (some folks won't even read it if written in that style).
For more information on quoting style, see:
http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/nquote.html
Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
Perl is much more precise than natural language. Saying it in Perl
instead will avoid misunderstanding your question or problem.
Do not say: I have variable with "foo\tbar" in it.
Instead say: I have $var = "foo\tbar", or I have $var = 'foo\tbar',
or I have $var = <DATA> (and show the data line).
Ask perl to help you
You can ask perl itself to help you find common programming mistakes
by doing two things: enable warnings (perldoc warnings) and enable
"strict"ures (perldoc strict).
You should not bother the hundreds/thousands of readers of the
newsgroup without first seeing if a machine can help you find your
problem. It is demeaning to be asked to do the work of a machine. It
will annoy the readers of your article.
You can look up any of the messages that perl might issue to find
out what the message means and how to resolve the potential mistake
(perldoc perldiag). If you would like perl to look them up for you,
you can put "use diagnostics;" near the top of your program.
Do not re-type Perl code
Use copy/paste or your editor's "import" function rather than
attempting to type in your code. If you make a typo you will get
followups about your typos instead of about the question you are
trying to get answered.
Provide enough information
If you do the things in this item, you will have an Extremely Good
chance of getting people to try and help you with your problem!
These features are a really big bonus toward your question winning
out over all of the other posts that you are competing with.
First make a short (less than 20-30 lines) and *complete* program
that illustrates the problem you are having. People should be able
to run your program by copy/pasting the code from your article. (You
will find that doing this step very often reveals your problem
directly. Leading to an answer much more quickly and reliably than
posting to Usenet.)
Describe *precisely* the input to your program. Also provide example
input data for your program. If you need to show file input, use the
__DATA__ token (perldata.pod) to provide the file contents inside of
your Perl program.
Show the output (including the verbatim text of any messages) of
your program.
Describe how you want the output to be different from what you are
getting.
If you have no idea at all of how to code up your situation, be sure
to at least describe the 2 things that you *do* know: input and
desired output.
Do not provide too much information
Do not just post your entire program for debugging. Most especially
do not post someone *else's* entire program.
Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
clpmisc is a text only newsgroup. If you have images or binaries
that explain your question, put them in a publically accessible
place (like a Web server) and provide a pointer to that location. If
you include code, cut and paste it directly in the message body.
Don't attach anything to the message. Don't post vcards or HTML.
Many people (and even some Usenet servers) will automatically filter
out such messages. Many people will not be able to easily read your
post. Plain text is something everyone can read.
Social faux pas to avoid
The first two below are symptoms of lots of FAQ asking here in clpmisc.
It happens so often that folks will assume that it is happening yet
again. If you have looked but not found, or found but didn't understand
the docs, say so in your article.
Asking a Frequently Asked Question
It should be understood that you may have missed the applicable FAQ
when you checked, which is not a big deal. But if the Frequently
Asked Question is worded similar to your question, folks will assume
that you did not look at all. Don't become indignant at pointers to
the FAQ, particularly if it solves your problem.
Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
If folks think you have not even tried the obvious step of reading
the docs applicable to your problem, they are likely to become
annoyed.
If you are flamed for not checking when you *did* check, then just
shrug it off (and take the answer that you got).
Asking for emailed answers
Emailed answers benefit one person. Posted answers benefit the
entire community. If folks can take the time to answer your
question, then you can take the time to go get the answer in the
same place where you asked the question.
It is OK to ask for a *copy* of the answer to be emailed, but many
will ignore such requests anyway. If you munge your address, you
should never expect (or ask) to get email in response to a Usenet
post.
Ask the question here, get the answer here (maybe).
Beware of saying "doesn't work"
This is a "red flag" phrase. If you find yourself writing that,
pause and see if you can't describe what is not working without
saying "doesn't work". That is, describe how it is not what you
want.
Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
A "stealth Cc" is when you both email and post a reply without
indicating *in the body* that you are doing so.
Be extra cautious when you get upset
Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
This is recommended in all Usenet newsgroups. Here in clpmisc, most
flaming sub-threads are not about any feature of Perl at all! They
are most often for what was seen as a breach of netiquette. If you
have lurked for a bit, then you will know what is expected and won't
make such posts in the first place.
But if you get upset, wait a while before writing your followup. I
recommend waiting at least 30 minutes.
Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
After you have written your followup, wait *another* 30 minutes
before committing yourself by posting it. You cannot take it back
once it has been said.
AUTHOR
Tad McClellan and many others on the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 2266
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