[30566] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1809 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Aug 21 06:09:43 2008
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 03:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 21 Aug 2008 Volume: 11 Number: 1809
Today's topics:
Re: Help: Characters with colors <openlinuxsource@gmail.com>
Re: Help: Debug perl codes <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Help: Filehandle problem <openlinuxsource@gmail.com>
new CPAN modules on Thu Aug 21 2008 (Randal Schwartz)
Re: OT news server <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Re: Problem With Crypt::CBC <whynot@pozharski.name>
Re: Score files (was Re: CLPM - a help group?) sln@netherlands.com
STFU (was Re: Score files) <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality (Rob Warnock)
Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality (Rob Warnock)
Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality sln@netherlands.com
Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality sln@netherlands.com
Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality <andrew-newspost@areilly.bpc-users.org>
Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality <piet@cs.uu.nl>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:19:40 +0800
From: Amy Lee <openlinuxsource@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Help: Characters with colors
Message-Id: <pan.2008.08.21.08.19.40.54061@gmail.com>
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:47:46 -0700, Brian Helterlilne wrote:
> Amy Lee wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:40:19 +0000, Lars Eighner wrote:
>>
>>> In our last episode, <pan.2008.08.20.14.25.29.189243@gmail.com>, the lovely
>>> and talented Amy Lee broadcast on comp.lang.perl.misc:
>>>
>>>> open KER_VER, "<", "/root/version";
>>>> while (<KER_VER>)
>>>> {
>>>> unless (/\s+2.4.\d+/)
>>>> {
>>>> die BOLD RED "Your kernel version is not 2.4.x.\n"
>>>> }
>>>> }
>>>
>>>> I hope clean this internal output by perl, how could I do that?
>>>> Thank you very much~
>>> You can write ansi codes directly, but in spite of ansi being
>>> more or less a standard, there are serious portability problems.
>>> Some terminals are not ansi capable and others may be quirky.
>> Thank you, but it seems that it's for 'print', not for 'die'. How do I
>> handle with color when I use 'die'?
>
> Read the documentation for the other interface - colored(). It returns a
> string with the codes embedded.
>
> die colored( "Your kernel version is not 2.4.x.\n", 'bold red' );
Thank you, I have solved it.
Amy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:19:22 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Subject: Re: Help: Debug perl codes
Message-Id: <m1ej4j3vid.fsf@dot-app.org>
"Thrill5" <nospam@somewhere.com> writes:
> "Sherm Pendley" <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote in message
> news:m17iab8clu.fsf@dot-app.org...
>>
>> Of course not. What I take objection to is the popular notion among
>> whiners (including the one to whom the OP had responded) that such
>> things are intentional attacks. The picture that these people paint,
>> of being irrationally "attacked" by regulars who "hate newbies," is
>> nothing but a ridiculous caricature.
>
> My "rant" was directed only to the bullies that like to ridicule
> posters because *they think* someone asked a dumb question.
Exactly my point. When regulars make mistakes, you describe them as
"bullies" who "like to ridicule" people. You refuse to consider that
it was an honest mistake brought about by misinterpreting the OP's
question; instead, you whine and rant about a hidden agenda that
exists only in your imagination.
> was a valid one and the reply *quote*
> *end quote* offers no help to anyone.
I'm not saying it did. What I find offensive is your claim that it was
a deliberate attack by someone who's just being a bully.
> How does he know if the OP spent 2 hours
> researching or spent none?
Well, given that Tad's response was off the mark, it's pretty obvious
that he *doesn't* know that 100%. Mistakes happen. *Your* mistake is
assuming that his response was intentional bullying.
> Why does it that matter anyway?
Speaking for myself, I believe that being able to navigate reference
material is the single most useful skill that a programmer can have,
in any language. Operating systems, languages, and toolkits come and
go, far too quickly for anyone to do more than absorb general concepts
and principles; that makes it critical for a programmer to be able to
look up the relevant details on an as-needed basis.
So, when I answer someone's question with a reference to the docs, I
do so because I believe it's helpful on two levels. First, there's the
short-term help of answering their immediate question, and second, I
think it's helpful to encourage the long-term development of what I
consider to be a critical skill.
I think that most of the regulars are thinking along similar lines,
and trying to offer what we think is the most helpful advice we can
give. Sometimes we fail in the attempt, and our advice isn't as
helpful as it could be; but that's just a failure in execution, not
evidence of ill intent.
sherm--
--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:23:01 +0800
From: Amy Lee <openlinuxsource@gmail.com>
Subject: Help: Filehandle problem
Message-Id: <pan.2008.08.21.09.23.01.226692@gmail.com>
Hello,
I want to process the output of a program. Anyway, the output is showing
on screen. Is there any way to process it by using file handle? I don't
suppose I should save the output as a file then process this file.
Thank you very much~
Regards,
Amy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:42:22 GMT
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal Schwartz)
Subject: new CPAN modules on Thu Aug 21 2008
Message-Id: <K5xp2M.15E5@zorch.sf-bay.org>
The following modules have recently been added to or updated in the
Comprehensive Perl Archive Network (CPAN). You can install them using the
instructions in the 'perlmodinstall' page included with your Perl
distribution.
Acme-EpicFail-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~ambs/Acme-EpicFail-0.01/
die in EPIC FAIL style
----
B-RecDeparse-0.03
http://search.cpan.org/~vpit/B-RecDeparse-0.03/
Deparse recursively into subroutines.
----
CGI-Ajax-0.703
http://search.cpan.org/~bpederse/CGI-Ajax-0.703/
a perl-specific system for writing Asynchronous web applications
----
CSS-DOM-0.03
http://search.cpan.org/~sprout/CSS-DOM-0.03/
Document Object Model for Cascading Style Sheets
----
Catalyst-Action-REST-0.65
http://search.cpan.org/~jshirley/Catalyst-Action-REST-0.65/
Automated REST Method Dispatching
----
Catalyst-Helper-AuthDBIC-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~zarquon/Catalyst-Helper-AuthDBIC-0.01/
(EXPERIMENTAL)
----
Catalyst-Plugin-Authentication-0.10007
http://search.cpan.org/~jayk/Catalyst-Plugin-Authentication-0.10007/
Infrastructure plugin for the Catalyst authentication framework.
----
Chart-Clicker-1.99_11
http://search.cpan.org/~gphat/Chart-Clicker-1.99_11/
Powerful, extensible charting.
----
Chart-Clicker-2.00
http://search.cpan.org/~gphat/Chart-Clicker-2.00/
Powerful, extensible charting.
----
Class-MOP-0.64_01
http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/Class-MOP-0.64_01/
A Meta Object Protocol for Perl 5
----
ConfigReader-Simple-1.27
http://search.cpan.org/~bdfoy/ConfigReader-Simple-1.27/
Simple configuration file parser
----
DBD-TSM-0.14
http://search.cpan.org/~lbendavid/DBD-TSM-0.14/
Perl DBD driver for TSM admin client
----
Data-Serializer-0.48
http://search.cpan.org/~neely/Data-Serializer-0.48/
Modules that serialize data structures
----
Filter-QuasiQuote-0.07
http://search.cpan.org/~agent/Filter-QuasiQuote-0.07/
Quasiquoting for Perl
----
Git-FastExport-0.04
http://search.cpan.org/~book/Git-FastExport-0.04/
A module to parse the output of git-fast-export
----
Gtk2-Ex-TickerView-7
http://search.cpan.org/~kryde/Gtk2-Ex-TickerView-7/
scrolling ticker display widget
----
Gtk2-Ex-WidgetCursor-6
http://search.cpan.org/~kryde/Gtk2-Ex-WidgetCursor-6/
mouse pointer cursor management for widgets
----
HTML-DOM-0.013
http://search.cpan.org/~sprout/HTML-DOM-0.013/
A Perl implementation of the HTML Document Object Model
----
HTML-Table-FromDatabase-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~bigpresh/HTML-Table-FromDatabase-0.01/
subclass of HTML::Table to generate tables easily from a database query
----
HTML-TreeBuilderX-ASP_NET-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~ecarroll/HTML-TreeBuilderX-ASP_NET-0.01/
Scrape ASP.NET/VB.NET sites which utilize Javascript POST-backs.
----
Handel-1.00011
http://search.cpan.org/~claco/Handel-1.00011/
A cart/order/checkout framework with AxKit/TT/Catalyst support
----
IO-Plumbing-0.07
http://search.cpan.org/~samv/IO-Plumbing-0.07/
pluggable, lazy access to system commands
----
IO-Plumbing-0.08
http://search.cpan.org/~samv/IO-Plumbing-0.08/
pluggable, lazy access to system commands
----
JS-0.15
http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/JS-0.15/
JavaScript Modules on CPAN
----
JS-Test-Base-0.14
http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/JS-Test-Base-0.14/
----
JS-Test-Simple-0.27
http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/JS-Test-Simple-0.27/
----
Math-GSL-0.10
http://search.cpan.org/~leto/Math-GSL-0.10/
Perl interface to the GNU Scientific Library (GSL)
----
Moose-0.55_01
http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/Moose-0.55_01/
A postmodern object system for Perl 5
----
MooseX-AttributeHelpers-0.12_01
http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/MooseX-AttributeHelpers-0.12_01/
Extend your attribute interfaces
----
MooseX-Storage-Format-XML-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~brunorc/MooseX-Storage-Format-XML-0.01/
An XML serialization role
----
Net-Amazon-S3-0.45
http://search.cpan.org/~lbrocard/Net-Amazon-S3-0.45/
Use the Amazon S3 - Simple Storage Service
----
Net-CIDR-MobileJP-0.14
http://search.cpan.org/~tokuhirom/Net-CIDR-MobileJP-0.14/
mobile ip address in Japan
----
Net-FSP-0.1
http://search.cpan.org/~leont/Net-FSP-0.1/
An FSP client implementation
----
Net-Netcraft-Query-0.02
http://search.cpan.org/~mcantoni/Net-Netcraft-Query-0.02/
Query the Netcraft webserver search
----
Net-Telnet-Brcd-0.201
http://search.cpan.org/~lbendavid/Net-Telnet-Brcd-0.201/
Contact BROCADE switch with TELNET
----
Net-Telnet-Brcd-0.202
http://search.cpan.org/~lbendavid/Net-Telnet-Brcd-0.202/
Contact BROCADE switch with TELNET
----
OpenGL-QEng-0.26
http://search.cpan.org/~overmars/OpenGL-QEng-0.26/
the 3D rendering engine for Games::Quest3D.
----
OpenResty-0.3.21
http://search.cpan.org/~agent/OpenResty-0.3.21/
General-purpose web service platform for web applications
----
POEIKC-0.02_03
http://search.cpan.org/~suzuki/POEIKC-0.02_03/
POE IKC daemon and client
----
SQL-Tokenizer-0.18
http://search.cpan.org/~izut/SQL-Tokenizer-0.18/
A simple SQL tokenizer.
----
Shipwright-1.13
http://search.cpan.org/~sunnavy/Shipwright-1.13/
Best Practical Builder
----
SkypeAPI-0.07
http://search.cpan.org/~laomoi/SkypeAPI-0.07/
Skype API simple implementation, only support windows platform now.
----
Term-Menus-FromFile-1.0.0
http://search.cpan.org/~dstaal/Term-Menus-FromFile-1.0.0/
----
Test-DBUnit-0.10
http://search.cpan.org/~adrianwit/Test-DBUnit-0.10/
Database test framework.
----
Var-State-0.04
http://search.cpan.org/~eidolon/Var-State-0.04/
state [variable]; in perl 5.8 - sort-of...
----
Verilog-Perl-3.040
http://search.cpan.org/~wsnyder/Verilog-Perl-3.040/
----
WWW-Mechanize-Plugin-Ajax-0.02
http://search.cpan.org/~sprout/WWW-Mechanize-Plugin-Ajax-0.02/
WWW::Mechanize plugin that provides the XMLHttpRequest object
----
WWW-Mechanize-Plugin-JavaScript-0.004
http://search.cpan.org/~sprout/WWW-Mechanize-Plugin-JavaScript-0.004/
JavaScript plugin for WWW::Mechanize
----
Win32-FileSecurity-1.08
http://search.cpan.org/~jdb/Win32-FileSecurity-1.08/
Manage FileSecurity Discretionary Access Control Lists in Perl
If you're an author of one of these modules, please submit a detailed
announcement to comp.lang.perl.announce, and we'll pass it along.
This message was generated by a Perl program described in my Linux
Magazine column, which can be found on-line (along with more than
200 other freely available past column articles) at
http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col82.html
print "Just another Perl hacker," # the original
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:13:09 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Subject: Re: OT news server
Message-Id: <m1iqtv41cq.fsf@dot-app.org>
sln@netherlands.com writes:
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:07:57 -0400, Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote:
>
>>fidokomik <fidokomik@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Please can anybody recommend me some news server?
>>
>>Free or paid? For free, I've had good results from aioe.org. They have
>>a fairly short retention period and don't carry binaries, but what
>>else can one expect for free? :-)
>>
>>For money, I've yet to see a service that beats giganews.
>
> Hey, I just got a $10 service @ 20 gigs and 160 days.
Giganews has a plan that costs a bit more, but includes a few more
bytes - it's $12.99 for 25GB. But they have a 200 day retention in the
*binary* groups, which they've announced will be upgraded to 240 days
in September. Their non-binary retention approaches the absurd - it's
measured in years intead of days.
I'm no longer a subscriber, but that has more to do with my own waning
interest in usenet than anything else. If I were still using a paid
service at all, it would be giganews.
> I used to have 5 gigs for and a year for free with adelphia.
Adelphia (now Comcast) in my area doesn't provide their own usenet
service - they simply resell GigaNews. That's how I first heard of
them.
> Now, I don't dnload binaries at the traditional sites, no need.
> Since I use Agent, which is a deep recoreder, should I go for the ten
> cents per month service and 5 day retention?
Honestly, if you don't care about long retention or binaries, a free
service like aioe.net's should be perfectly fine.
sherm--
--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:38:51 +0300
From: Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name>
Subject: Re: Problem With Crypt::CBC
Message-Id: <ru4un5xvem.ln2@carpet.zombinet>
Hal Vaughan <hal@halblog.com> wrote:
*SKIP*
> anyway). Etch uses Crypt::CBC version 2.22. I don't remember what
> version was being used previously.
2.12 (exactly 2.12-1sarge2)
*SKIP*
> $cipher = Crypt::CBC->new( { 'key' => $pw, 'iv' => $vector,
> 'prepend_iv' => 0, 'cipher' => 'Blowfish',
> 'regenerate_key' => 0 , 'padding' => 'standard'} );
> Now when the interpreter gets here, I get this error message:
> If specified by -literal_key, then the key length must be equal to the
> chosen cipher's key length of 56 bytes at threshPerl/Encryption.pm
> line 82
(all I say hereby is absolutely unauthoritative, needs verifing, and
better should be forgotten; I've just read L<Crypt::CBC> for the first
time) If my understanding of descriptions of I<-literal_key> and
I<-regenerate_key> is correct, then consider replacing(!)
C<-regenerate_key => 0> with C<-literal_key => 1>
One more. As of I<2.22> B<Crypt::CBC>'s B<new> has hyphen prepended
keys. Maybe that wasn't the case before, maybe it eats them hyphenles
happily. Maybe not. Consider prepending keys with hyphens.
*CUT*
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:21:34 GMT
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Re: Score files (was Re: CLPM - a help group?)
Message-Id: <p2kpa45jd3p5e0jgrr66bo16i3tskeo3un@4ax.com>
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:31:09 -0400, Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote:
>sln@netherlands.com writes:
>
>> Please title your personal software "Kill" tactics appropriately!
>
>He *did* change the subject when the topic drifted. What part of
>"Score files (was Re: CLPM - a help group?)" doesn't make that clear
>to you?
>
>sherm--
What part of modifying kill software made it clear to you that it had even
a particle of subject "CLPM - a help group?".
I think you need to stfu forever. I can start the stfu branch too from this one.
sln
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:33:14 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Subject: STFU (was Re: Score files)
Message-Id: <m1abf73uv9.fsf_-_@dot-app.org>
sln@netherlands.com writes:
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:31:09 -0400, Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote:
>
>>sln@netherlands.com writes:
>>
>>> Please title your personal software "Kill" tactics appropriately!
>>
>>He *did* change the subject when the topic drifted. What part of
>>"Score files (was Re: CLPM - a help group?)" doesn't make that clear
>>to you?
>
> What part of modifying kill software made it clear to you that it
> had even a particle of subject "CLPM - a help group?".
You're not making sense. Tad *didn't* leave the old subject line - he
changed it to accurately reflect the topic of this branch.
> I think you need to stfu forever. I can start the stfu branch too
> from this one.
Don't worry, I did that for you. Did that help you feel better about
yourself? Or do you intend to whine some more?
sherm--
--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:47:50 -0500
From: rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Subject: Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality
Message-Id: <0-SdnROBHqDbVDHVnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
John W Kennedy <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:
+---------------
| I said "machine language" and I meant it. I haven't touched a 1401 since
| 1966, and haven't dealt with a 1401 emulator since 1968, but I can
| /still/ write a self-booting program.
+---------------
Heh! I never dealt with a 1401 per se [except when running a 1410
in 1401 emulation mode to run the Autoplotter program, which wasn't
available for the 1410], but I still remember the IBM 1410 bootstrap
instructions you had to type in on the console to boot from magtape.
v v
L%B000012$N
where the "v" accent is the "wordmark" indicator.
That says to read in a whole tape record in "load" mode (meaning
that wordmarks & groupmarks in memory are overwritten), synchronously
(stop & wait), from tape drive 0, starting at memory location
decimal 12, which, since the 1410 used *1*-based addressing,
was the location just after the no-op at location 11 above.
[Note that these are actual *machine* instructions, *not* "assember"!!
Like the 1401, the 1410 was a *character* machine, not an 8-bit-byte
binary machine. The bits in a character were named 1, 2, 4, 8, A, B,
and W (wordmark). Oh, and C, but that was character parity -- the
programmer couldn't set that separately.]
What was the corresponding 1401 boot sequence?
Oh, for the record, IMHO the DEC PDP-8 had a *much* simpler machine
language and assembler than the IBM 1401/1410. ;-}
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:18:22 -0500
From: rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Subject: Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality
Message-Id: <2OedndEZrPbzTTHVnZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address.invalid> wrote:
+---------------
| I was fascinated, though by the designs of early assemblers: I first
| learnt Elliott assembler, which required the op codes to be typed on
| octal but used symbolic labels and variable names. Meanwhile a colleague
| had started on a KDF6 which was the opposite - op codes were mnemonics
| but all addresses were absolute and entered in octal. I always wondered
| about the rationale of the KDF6 assembler writers in tackling only the
| easy part of the job.
+---------------
In the LGP-30, they used hex addresses, sort of[1], but the opcodes
(all 16 of them) had single-letter mnemonics chosen so that the
low 4 bits of the character codes *were* the correct nibble for
the opcode! ;-}
[Or you could type in the actual hex digits, since the low 4 bits
of *their* character codes were also their corresponding binary
nibble values... "but that would have been wrong".]
-Rob
[1] The LGP-30 character code was defined before the industry had
yet standardized on a common "hex" character set, so instead of
"0123456789abcdef" they used "0123456789fgjkqw". [The "fgjkqw"
were some random characters on the Flexowriter keyboard whose low
4 bits just happened to be what we now call 0xa-0xf]. Even worse,
the sector addresses of instructions were *not* right-justified
in the machine word (off by one bit), plus because of the shift-
register nature of the accumulator you lost the low bit of each
machine word when you typed in instructions (or read them from
tape), so the address values you used in coding went up by *4*!
That is, machine locations were counted [*and* coded, in both
absolute machine code & assembler] as "0", "4", "8", "j", "10",
"14", "18", "1j" (pronounced "J-teen"!!), etc.
-----
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:30:27 GMT
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality
Message-Id: <4fkpa4prudu3gkdt9095coho3srb52o82d@4ax.com>
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:18:22 -0500, rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address.invalid> wrote:
>+---------------
>| I was fascinated, though by the designs of early assemblers: I first
>| learnt Elliott assembler, which required the op codes to be typed on
>| octal but used symbolic labels and variable names. Meanwhile a colleague
>| had started on a KDF6 which was the opposite - op codes were mnemonics
>| but all addresses were absolute and entered in octal. I always wondered
>| about the rationale of the KDF6 assembler writers in tackling only the
>| easy part of the job.
>+---------------
>
>In the LGP-30, they used hex addresses, sort of[1], but the opcodes
>(all 16 of them) had single-letter mnemonics chosen so that the
>low 4 bits of the character codes *were* the correct nibble for
>the opcode! ;-}
>
>[Or you could type in the actual hex digits, since the low 4 bits
>of *their* character codes were also their corresponding binary
>nibble values... "but that would have been wrong".]
>
>
>-Rob
>
>[1] The LGP-30 character code was defined before the industry had
> yet standardized on a common "hex" character set, so instead of
> "0123456789abcdef" they used "0123456789fgjkqw". [The "fgjkqw"
> were some random characters on the Flexowriter keyboard whose low
> 4 bits just happened to be what we now call 0xa-0xf]. Even worse,
> the sector addresses of instructions were *not* right-justified
> in the machine word (off by one bit), plus because of the shift-
> register nature of the accumulator you lost the low bit of each
> machine word when you typed in instructions (or read them from
> tape), so the address values you used in coding went up by *4*!
> That is, machine locations were counted [*and* coded, in both
> absolute machine code & assembler] as "0", "4", "8", "j", "10",
> "14", "18", "1j" (pronounced "J-teen"!!), etc.
>
>-----
>Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
>627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
>San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Whats os interresting about all this hullabaloo is that nobody has
coded machine code here, and know's squat about it.
I'm not talking assembly language. Don't you know that there are routines
that program machine code? Yes, burned in, bitwise encodings that enable
machine instructions? Nothing below that.
There is nobody here, who ever visited/replied with any thought relavence that can
be brought foward to any degree, meaning anything, nobody....
sln
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:36:39 GMT
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality
Message-Id: <v2lpa49o65j228vpcec9d03d560b18rkl7@4ax.com>
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:30:27 GMT, sln@netherlands.com wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:18:22 -0500, rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>
>>Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address.invalid> wrote:
>>+---------------
>>| I was fascinated, though by the designs of early assemblers: I first
>>| learnt Elliott assembler, which required the op codes to be typed on
>>| octal but used symbolic labels and variable names. Meanwhile a colleague
>>| had started on a KDF6 which was the opposite - op codes were mnemonics
>>| but all addresses were absolute and entered in octal. I always wondered
>>| about the rationale of the KDF6 assembler writers in tackling only the
>>| easy part of the job.
>>+---------------
>>
>>In the LGP-30, they used hex addresses, sort of[1], but the opcodes
>>(all 16 of them) had single-letter mnemonics chosen so that the
>>low 4 bits of the character codes *were* the correct nibble for
>>the opcode! ;-}
>>
>>[Or you could type in the actual hex digits, since the low 4 bits
>>of *their* character codes were also their corresponding binary
>>nibble values... "but that would have been wrong".]
>>
>>
>>-Rob
>>
>>[1] The LGP-30 character code was defined before the industry had
>> yet standardized on a common "hex" character set, so instead of
>> "0123456789abcdef" they used "0123456789fgjkqw". [The "fgjkqw"
>> were some random characters on the Flexowriter keyboard whose low
>> 4 bits just happened to be what we now call 0xa-0xf]. Even worse,
>> the sector addresses of instructions were *not* right-justified
>> in the machine word (off by one bit), plus because of the shift-
>> register nature of the accumulator you lost the low bit of each
>> machine word when you typed in instructions (or read them from
>> tape), so the address values you used in coding went up by *4*!
>> That is, machine locations were counted [*and* coded, in both
>> absolute machine code & assembler] as "0", "4", "8", "j", "10",
>> "14", "18", "1j" (pronounced "J-teen"!!), etc.
>>
>>-----
>>Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
>>627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
>>San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
>
>
>Whats os interresting about all this hullabaloo is that nobody has
>coded machine code here, and know's squat about it.
>
>I'm not talking assembly language. Don't you know that there are routines
>that program machine code? Yes, burned in, bitwise encodings that enable
>machine instructions? Nothing below that.
>
>There is nobody here, who ever visited/replied with any thought relavence that can
>be brought foward to any degree, meaning anything, nobody....
>
>sln
At most, your trying to validate you understanding. But you don't pose questions,
you pose terse inflamatory declarations.
You make me sick!
sln
------------------------------
Date: 21 Aug 2008 06:02:38 GMT
From: Andrew Reilly <andrew-newspost@areilly.bpc-users.org>
Subject: Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality
Message-Id: <6h4entFioa48U1@mid.individual.net>
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:36:39 +0000, sln wrote:
>>Whats os interresting about all this hullabaloo is that nobody has coded
>>machine code here, and know's squat about it.
>>
>>I'm not talking assembly language. Don't you know that there are
>>routines that program machine code? Yes, burned in, bitwise encodings
>>that enable machine instructions? Nothing below that.
>>
>>There is nobody here, who ever visited/replied with any thought
>>relavence that can be brought foward to any degree, meaning anything,
>>nobody....
>>
>>sln
>
> At most, your trying to validate you understanding. But you don't pose
> questions, you pose terse inflamatory declarations.
>
> You make me sick!
Could you elaborate a little on what it is that you're upset about? I
suspect that there are probably quite a few readers of these posts that
have designed and built their own processors, and coded them in their own
machine language. I have, and that was before FPGAs started to make that
exercise quite commonplace. But I don't see how that's at all relevant
to the debate about the power or other characteristics of programming
languages. Certainly anyone who's programmed a machine in assembly
language has a pretty fair understanding of what the machine and the
machine language is doing, even though they don't choose to bang the bits
together manually.
Hope you get better.
--
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:56:50 +0200
From: Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: The Importance of Terminology's Quality
Message-Id: <m27iaa4ugd.fsf@cs.uu.nl>
>>>>> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> (AV) wrote:
>AV> Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>> John W Kennedy <jwke...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>JWK> Into the 60s, indeed, there were still machines being made
>JWK> that had no instruction comparable to the mainframe BASx/BALx
>JWK> family, or to Intel's CALL. You had to do a subprogram call by
>JWK> first overwriting the last instruction of what you were
>JWK> calling with a branch instruction that would return back to
>JWK> you.
>>>
>>> That's not true, that you needed to do that, that there was no
>>> other way available. The subroutine linkage I invented for S.P.S.
>>> (Symbolic Programming System, i.e. IBM 1620 assembly language) was
>>> to reserve a 5-digit space immediately before the subroutine entry
>>> point for storing the return address. So the caller needed to know
>>> only one address, the entry point, and do both store-return-address
>>> and jump relative to that address, rather than needing to know both
>>> the entry point and the last-instruction-JUMP-needs-patch address
>>> as independent items of information.
>AV> CDC Cyber did something very similar.
>AV> Not very recursion friendly.
Actually, the CYBER way wasn't too bad. IIRC the CYBER had a subroutine
instruction that stored the return address in the location that the
instruction referenced and then jumped to the address following that
location. To implement a recursive procedure you started the code of the
procedure with saving the return address to a stack.
--
Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.nl>
URL: http://pietvanoostrum.com [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
Private email: piet@vanoostrum.org
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
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