[30549] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1792 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Aug 13 18:09:40 2008
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 13 Aug 2008 Volume: 11 Number: 1792
Today's topics:
Re: CLPM - a help group? <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <worrall-unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <worrall-unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <worrall-unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Perl - Statistics and AI <news1234@free.fr>
Proper way to install module that uses shared libs <titanandrews@hotmail.com>
Re: Proper way to install module that uses shared libs <fawaka@gmail.com>
Re: Tone generation question plus Windows XP and Vista <john@castleamber.com>
vec() in lvalue sub <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Re: vec() in lvalue sub <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Re: vec() in lvalue sub <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Re: vec() in lvalue sub <fawaka@gmail.com>
Re: vec() in lvalue sub <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Re: vec() in lvalue sub <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Re: vec() in lvalue sub <No_4@dsl.pipex.com>
Re: vec() in lvalue sub <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:51:00 -0700
From: Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <8aFok.19112$89.400@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>
Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>>>>>> "AW" == Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> writes:
>
> AW> Dr.Ruud wrote:
>
> >> They will be sent away when they don't. You are not contributing
> >> so you should really leave now.
>
> AW> And you people complain when someone starts dictating
> AW> policy... what the hell do you call this?
>
> People complain when an outsider shows up in the newsgroup, apparently
> for the sole purpose of telling us what we're doing is wrong and how we
> should change to suit him.
But that's not what I did. What has happened is I've been scolded for
doing what the regulars constantly do: dictating what is right and
wrong, and that's not what I did. It was just another semi-clever
reversal, a common tactic.
> People don't complain when a regular poster expresses a sentiment that
> they agree with.
Stop assuming everyone agrees with the "popular" views.
- Adam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:55:58 -0700
From: Adam Worrall <worrall-unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <PeFok.19924$uE5.12470@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com>
Tad J McClellan wrote:
> Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Dr.Ruud wrote:
>>> Adam Worrall schreef:
>>>
>>>> How can a _volunteer_ service be _obligated_ to do anything? They are
>>>> volunteers...
>>> They will be sent away when they don't. You are not contributing so you
>>> should really leave now.
>> And you people complain when someone starts dictating policy... what the
>> hell do you call this?
>
>
> An attempt to increase the fidelity in clpmisc.
Another lie. You repeatedly have committed the crime you charged me and
all you can do it resort to invoking countless fallacies and defense
mechanisms (such as the reversals you and your cronies have been using)
instead of crafting an actual intelligent response. You obviously excel
in turning arguments against your views around so the other side is
wrong no matter what, even when they aren't.
- Adam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:08:50 -0700
From: Adam Worrall <worrall-unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <TqFok.19928$uE5.9682@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com>
John Bokma wrote:
> Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> You don't know what you're talking about. The statement was that a
>> news groups like this functions as a _voluntary_ help desk. No one is
>> obligated to answer anything but they do because they want to.
>
> Something that /appears/ to function as, in this case, a voluntary help
> desk, doesn't make it one.
It also doesn't not make it one. Why is it you can dictate what it is or
isn't yet any other person who gets buried for it?
> Voluntary still implies that there are rules / guidelines.
It depends entirely on the particular "desk", as you cannot give one
blanket statement, just as it's wrong to give the blanket statement that
this groups is "not a help desk."
> If I volunteer to feed homeless people, I can't feed them dogfood for
> example,
Sure you could, but you wouldn't want to. "I can't" and "I wouldn't" are
not the same.
> There are no such rules here,
I thought the regulars always push the posting guidelines as rules? Even
so, that in and of itself doesn't make or not make a help desk, volunary
or otherwise.
> hence, this *not a helpdesk*, voluntary or not.
Why are you attempting to dictate what this group is or isn't? No one,
not you, nor I, or anyone else, has the authority to pronounce what a
group is or isn't, so please stop doing it.
> This is a discussion group. If you get help out of it, fine.
Getting help would seem to be one of it's primary functions. Why is it
so painful for you to admit this?
> But you can't insist on getting help from the participants, even
> if your question is 100% Perl related and answerable by them.
I never claimed that one had to insist, and in voluntary help services,
it's the same thing, you don't have to help, you aren't required to do
so, so once again, it matches the general behavior of this group.
> In short: you're wrong, but nice trolling.
Yep, anyone who doesn't bend over and succumb to your views has to be a
troll. Nice blanket defense.
- Adam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:14:51 -0700
From: Adam Worrall <worrall-unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <wwFok.19930$uE5.16275@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com>
Sherm Pendley wrote:
> Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> When did I say that? All I said was that it functions like a
>> _volunteer_ help desk
>
> What you said is wrong. Help desk workers are obligated to answer
> questions as given.
No, not all help desk work that way. Please stop using that one blanket
statement to cover all various kinds of help services that exist out
there. I have worked one on so I know first hand, so please spare me the
superiority complex.
- Adam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:07:15 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <m1od3w7k7g.fsf@dot-app.org>
Adam Worrall <worrall-unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> writes:
> Sherm Pendley wrote:
>> Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>> When did I say that? All I said was that it functions like a
>>> _volunteer_ help desk
>>
>> What you said is wrong. Help desk workers are obligated to answer
>> questions as given.
>
> No, not all help desk work that way. Please stop using that one
> blanket statement to cover all various kinds of help services that
> exist out there.
I *didn't* use it to cover various kinds of help services. Quite to
the contrary, *you* are the one trying to stretch the definition. A
help desk is a place where people can go with the expectation of
receiving assistance, without commentary that isn't relevant to their
questions.
A place where such diversionary discussion is welcome and expected,
such as this one, is not a help desk. People who come here might find
help, or they might not.
> so please
> spare me the superiority complex.
*You* are accusing *me* of having a superiority complex? I hate to
break it to you, but I'm not the one walking into an established
community, and telling everyone in it that they're doing things wrong
and ought to change their ways.
sherm--
--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
------------------------------
Date: 13 Aug 2008 20:36:15 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <Xns9AF99EB9F7AFCcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
Adam Worrall <worrall-unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> No, not all help desk work that way. Please stop using that one blanket
> statement to cover all various kinds of help services that exist out
> there. I have worked one on so I know first hand, so please spare me the
> superiority complex.
So you worked at a voluntary help desk that had no obligation to function?
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:33:19 +0200
From: nntpman68 <news1234@free.fr>
Subject: Re: Perl - Statistics and AI
Message-Id: <48a3531f$0$13081$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Dag meneer,
If you're not a troll it would be nice if you yourself started talking
about something instead of complaining, that the perl group doesn't
discuss your topics.
Did you implement anything in perl, which is more then the drops in the
ocean that this group is normally talking about?
Or did you implement in another language and you would be curious to see
the same stuff in perl?
Or are you interested in something in particular which is a little less
vague than 'STATISTICS/NUMERICAL METHODS/AI'?
Come on, give us something to discuss!
bye
N
sln@netherlands.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It would be nice to see, and draw in, some expertise in statistics and AI
> into the Perl community here.
>
> I think these two categories will inspire excellent Perl programmers
> into developing algo's and post them in free space, here, for all to gleen
> and learn.
>
> This as opposed to reading some convoluted google found runabout.
>
> So post some Perl specific method's so we can learn PAST the syntax of Perl
> and maybe get intimite knowledge of science, here here..
>
> I'm an engineer, BS. I've worked 3 years as an engineer, 25 years as a
> programmer in the engineering janra. Yea, I was a computer buff with
> TS ZX80/81/2068 on Zilog's, doing assembly graph plotting. Later
> 8000 series, 8080, 8086, went to Motorola's, all for a hobby.
> Back then, cpu registers were vastly different then calculators, and much
> more intriguing.
>
> My earlies recollections of higher/consolidated language's were mostly of
> kernel's. I learned Pascal's BEGIN/END structure stuff working with Tandy's
> and thier 8-1/2 floppy os. Then I bought the first Amiga 1000. But I also
> bought the white ROM KERNEL manuals to with it. Never forget it, it was my
> first experience with DLL's, Dynamic Loaded Library's... amazing, 1985...
>
> I quickly raced through all the code/articles I could get my hands on.
> Manual after manual, reading/writing to ports, hardware affects, timing,
> clocks.
>
> I soon settled on algo's, digested interresting concepts.
>
> It would be nice to see more interrest, in this group, placed more on usage of
> the language instead of syntax.
>
> But, see, the thing is, like math, language and syntax is useless alone.
> I do see sporadic usage examples of network/cgi/xml, all the nice things
> that don't amount to anything. All they do is move data from one place to
> another, childs play in concept. The little tinker, os specific details
> are nice to show off, but they are just a drop in the OCEAN !!!
>
> Can we start talkin ALGO'S in Perl, like STATISTICS/NUMERICAL METHODS/AI
> for a change?
>
> Thanks.
>
> sln
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:53:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: B <titanandrews@hotmail.com>
Subject: Proper way to install module that uses shared libs
Message-Id: <a4bd7912-4bec-4a08-af0f-0825141e5510@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com>
Hi All,
Does anyone know the proper way to install a Perl module on Linux that
loads several shared libraries? For standard libs that comes with
Perl, the .so files are in the ${PERL_HOME}/i386-linux-thread-multi/
auto directory. Is this where my libs should go also? I do not want to
depend on LD_LIBRARY_PATH if at all possible. Also, what about
managing versions? Is there a document that describes best practices
for handling this scenario?
many thanks,
B
------------------------------
Date: 13 Aug 2008 19:09:33 GMT
From: Leon Timmermans <fawaka@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Proper way to install module that uses shared libs
Message-Id: <48a3316d$0$192$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:53:30 -0700, B wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know the proper way to install a Perl module on Linux that
> loads several shared libraries? For standard libs that comes with Perl,
> the .so files are in the ${PERL_HOME}/i386-linux-thread-multi/ auto
> directory. Is this where my libs should go also? I do not want to depend
> on LD_LIBRARY_PATH if at all possible. Also, what about managing
> versions? Is there a document that describes best practices for handling
> this scenario?
>
> many thanks,
>
> B
Module::Build or ExtUtils::MakeMaker can take care of all of that,
there's no need to deal with that yourself.
Regards,
Leon
------------------------------
Date: 13 Aug 2008 17:38:55 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Tone generation question plus Windows XP and Vista information
Message-Id: <Xns9AF980A8C4B79castleamber@130.133.1.4>
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Can Perl generate other tones besides the one produced by the
Assuming you have Active Perl, check out Win32::Sound. I've used it
successfully in the past to play sounds (wav files).
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:21:00 -0400
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s_=B7_reservoir?= <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Subject: vec() in lvalue sub
Message-Id: <g7v574$p0p$1@aioe.org>
The subroutine is this:
sub mess_with_bits(\$$;$) : lvalue {
do {
eval {
${$_[0]} = ''
};
cluck $@ if $@;
} if (!defined ${$_[0]});
my $r = shift;
my $p = shift;
if (@_) {
my $o = vec($$r => $p, 1);
vec($$r => $p, 1) = shift;
return $o;
}
vec($$r => $p, 1);
}
But when I do this:
mess_with_bits($str, 17) = 1;
print mess_with_bits($str, 2), "\n"'
it prints 1.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:25:50 -0400
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s_=B7_reservoir?= <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: vec() in lvalue sub
Message-Id: <g7v5g6$q9s$1@aioe.org>
s · reservoir wrote:
> The subroutine is this:
> sub mess_with_bits(\$$;$) : lvalue {
> do {
> eval {
> ${$_[0]} = ''
> };
> cluck $@ if $@;
> } if (!defined ${$_[0]});
> my $r = shift;
> my $p = shift;
> if (@_) {
> my $o = vec($$r => $p, 1);
> vec($$r => $p, 1) = shift;
> return $o;
> }
> vec($$r => $p, 1);
> }
> But when I do this:
> mess_with_bits($str, 17) = 1;
> print mess_with_bits($str, 2), "\n"'
> it prints 1.
For some reason, it prints 0 if I don't have
use feature qw(say);
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:28:58 -0400
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s_=B7_reservoir?= <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: vec() in lvalue sub
Message-Id: <g7v5m2$q9s$2@aioe.org>
> For some reason, it prints 0 if I don't have
> use feature qw(say);
I take that back. For some reason, it still doesn't seem to work.
------------------------------
Date: 13 Aug 2008 19:03:57 GMT
From: Leon Timmermans <fawaka@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: vec() in lvalue sub
Message-Id: <48a3301d$0$192$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:21:00 -0400, s · reservoir wrote:
> The subroutine is this:
> sub mess_with_bits(\$$;$) : lvalue {
> do {
> eval {
> ${$_[0]} = ''
> };
> cluck $@ if $@;
> } if (!defined ${$_[0]});
> my $r = shift;
> my $p = shift;
> if (@_) {
> my $o = vec($$r => $p, 1);
> vec($$r => $p, 1) = shift;
> return $o;
> }
> vec($$r => $p, 1);
> }
> But when I do this:
> mess_with_bits($str, 17) = 1;
> print mess_with_bits($str, 2), "\n"'
> it prints 1.
No offense, but this is terrible code to read. The `do{} if` thing
doesn't make any sense at all, why not just use an if statement? Why do
you use an eval section? Also, please give your variables normal names.
Anyway, I can reproduce this (on 5.8.8). The value in the bitstring is 0,
but the function reports 1. Smells like a bug to me.
Regards,
Leon Timmermans
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s_=B7_reservoir?= <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: vec() in lvalue sub
Message-Id: <1030c81c-39e5-4367-9537-b3bd275edb8d@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
On Aug 13, 3:03=A0pm, Leon Timmermans <faw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:21:00 -0400, s =B7 reservoir wrote:
> > The subroutine is this:
> > sub mess_with_bits(\$$;$) : lvalue {
> > =A0 =A0do {
> > =A0 =A0 =A0eval {
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0${$_[0]} =3D ''
> > =A0 =A0 =A0};
> > =A0 =A0 =A0cluck $@ if $@;
> > =A0 =A0} if (!defined ${$_[0]});
> > =A0 =A0my $r =3D shift;
> > =A0 =A0my $p =3D shift;
> > =A0 =A0if (@_) {
> > =A0 =A0 =A0my $o =3D vec($$r =3D> $p, 1);
> > =A0 =A0 =A0vec($$r =3D> $p, 1) =3D shift;
> > =A0 =A0 =A0return $o;
> > =A0 =A0}
> > =A0 =A0vec($$r =3D> $p, 1);
> > }
> > But when I do this:
> > =A0 =A0mess_with_bits($str, 17) =3D 1;
> > =A0 =A0print mess_with_bits($str, 2), "\n"'
> > it prints 1.
>
> No offense, but this is terrible code to read. The `do{} if` thing
> doesn't make any sense at all, why not just use an if statement? Why do
It is terrible. I was going to rewrite it, but I never got around to
it.
Thanks for reminding me.
> you use an eval section? Also, please give your variables normal names.
In case somebody tried mess_with_bits('', 17). It has to do with an
old
implementation of it that I never really fixed.
> Anyway, I can reproduce this (on 5.8.8). The value in the bitstring is 0,
> but the function reports 1. Smells like a bug to me.
Sent a report with perlbug.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:29:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s_=B7_reservoir?= <sreservoir@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: vec() in lvalue sub
Message-Id: <0c0998a4-a655-402c-ba85-081b2d52acbf@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
On Aug 13, 3:03=A0pm, Leon Timmermans <faw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:21:00 -0400, s =B7 reservoir wrote:
> > The subroutine is this:
> > sub mess_with_bits(\$$;$) : lvalue {
> > =A0 =A0do {
> > =A0 =A0 =A0eval {
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0${$_[0]} =3D ''
> > =A0 =A0 =A0};
> > =A0 =A0 =A0cluck $@ if $@;
> > =A0 =A0} if (!defined ${$_[0]});
> > =A0 =A0my $r =3D shift;
> > =A0 =A0my $p =3D shift;
> > =A0 =A0if (@_) {
> > =A0 =A0 =A0my $o =3D vec($$r =3D> $p, 1);
> > =A0 =A0 =A0vec($$r =3D> $p, 1) =3D shift;
> > =A0 =A0 =A0return $o;
> > =A0 =A0}
> > =A0 =A0vec($$r =3D> $p, 1);
> > }
> > But when I do this:
> > =A0 =A0mess_with_bits($str, 17) =3D 1;
> > =A0 =A0print mess_with_bits($str, 2), "\n"'
> > it prints 1.
>
> No offense, but this is terrible code to read. The `do{} if` thing
> doesn't make any sense at all, why not just use an if statement? Why do
> you use an eval section? Also, please give your variables normal names.
>
> Anyway, I can reproduce this (on 5.8.8). The value in the bitstring is 0,
> but the function reports 1. Smells like a bug to me.
Oddly enough, this works:
#!/usr/bin/env perl
use strict;
use warnings;
sub f(\$$;$) : lvalue {
do { eval { ${$_[0]} =3D '' }; warn $@ if $@; } if (!defined $
{$_[0]});
my $r =3D shift;
my $p =3D shift;
if (@_) {
my $o =3D vec($$r =3D> $p, 1);
vec($$r =3D> $p, 1) =3D shift;
return $o;
}
vec($$r =3D> $p, 1);
}
sub say {
print @_, "\n";
}
my $str;
say f($str =3D> 13);
f($str =3D> 17) =3D 1;
my $t =3D f($str =3D> 13);
say $t;
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:39:20 +0100
From: Big and Blue <No_4@dsl.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: vec() in lvalue sub
Message-Id: <rN-dnafXjYgVyT7VnZ2dnUVZ8gydnZ2d@pipex.net>
>> Anyway, I can reproduce this (on 5.8.8). The value in the bitstring is 0,
>> but the function reports 1. Smells like a bug to me.
>
> Sent a report with perlbug.
In 5.8.5 it also reports 1....
...unless you run it under the debugger, in which case it reports 0.
[mysys]: /usr/bin/perl x.pl
1
[mysys]: /usr/bin/perl -d x.pl
Loading DB routines from perl5db.pl version 1.28
Editor support available.
Enter h or `h h' for help, or `man perldebug' for more help.
main::(x.pl:23): my $str;
DB<1> c
0
Debugged program terminated. Use q to quit or R to restart,
use o inhibit_exit to avoid stopping after program termination,
h q, h R or h o to get additional info.
DB<1> q
It seems that on the second call to mess_with_bits() under the debugger
$str (== $$r) is all zeroes.
FWIW the "if (@_)" setting block never gets called (put a print
statement in it - it never happens). The first call only has 2
parameters. Hence $str is never set, and you are actually trying to
access an unset variable, which probably explains the different result
in and not-in the debugger.
It is documented that you can't have a return in an lvalue sub (e.g.
http://search.cpan.org/dist/perl/pod/perlsub.pod#Lvalue_subroutines__)
--
Just because I've written it doesn't mean that
either you or I have to believe it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:50:18 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: vec() in lvalue sub
Message-Id: <qh1cn5-6c6.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s_=B7_reservoir?= <sreservoir@gmail.com>:
> The subroutine is this:
> sub mess_with_bits(\$$;$) : lvalue {
lvalue subs do not always behave as one might expect, and are worth
avoiding. What's wrong with a more normal API?
Ben
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. I will face my fear and
I will let it pass through me. When the fear is gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain.
ben@morrow.me.uk Frank Herbert, 'Dune'
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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clpa@perl.com.
#To request back copies (available for a week or so), send your request
#to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu with the command "send perl-users x.y",
#where x is the volume number and y is the issue number.
#For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
#perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
#sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
#answer them even if I did know the answer.
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 1792
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