[30545] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1788 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Aug 12 00:09:58 2008
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:09:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 11 Aug 2008 Volume: 11 Number: 1788
Today's topics:
Re: CLPM - a help group? <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: CLPM - a help group? sln@netherlands.com
Re: CLPM - a help group? sln@netherlands.com
Re: CLPM - a help group? <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Discussion forum sofware in perl <john@castleamber.com>
Re: double slash operator syntax question <mjcarman@mchsi.com>
Re: empty "if" statement - it doesn't look nice, does i <john@castleamber.com>
Re: FAQ 5.6 How do I make a temporary file name? <mjcarman@mchsi.com>
Re: Newbie: Replacing double newlines <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Perl - Statistics and AI sln@netherlands.com
Re: Perl - Statistics and AI <benkasminbullock@gmail.com>
Re: Perl - Statistics and AI <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Re: Perl - Statistics and AI <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: Trying to understand a constructor with an array. <nowhere@nowhere.com>
Re: Trying to understand a constructor with an array. <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:19:31 -0400
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <8663q7jito.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "AW" == Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> writes:
AW> Dr.Ruud wrote:
>> They will be sent away when they don't. You are not contributing
>> so you should really leave now.
AW> And you people complain when someone starts dictating
AW> policy... what the hell do you call this?
People complain when an outsider shows up in the newsgroup, apparently
for the sole purpose of telling us what we're doing is wrong and how we
should change to suit him.
People don't complain when a regular poster expresses a sentiment that
they agree with.
You really should leave now, before you get plonked any further.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:27:16 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <4vq6n5-9sk.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk>:
Do not change your posting address. It will not encourage those of us
who have you killfiled to take you any more seriously.
Ben
--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
ben@morrow.me.uk Groucho Marx
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:48:54 GMT
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <k2g1a4pe6od0m1l3re067o8ltj8instue0@4ax.com>
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:27:16 +0100, Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>
>Quoth Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk>:
>
>Do not change your posting address. It will not encourage those of us
>who have you killfiled to take you any more seriously.
>
>Ben
Killfile, who DIES there?
Isin't that a just a filter, or do you actually commit murder and should be reported
to the police (give them your isp)?
Filtering posts are a good thing if true spambots. Not so good with real people.
But hey, it sounds very impressive KILL file, like your murdering somebody.
All it does is exclude yourself, not others.
LOL.....
sln
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:56:52 GMT
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <pqg1a495tph611t0b1m3831tkrdjjojhcn@4ax.com>
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:48:54 GMT, sln@netherlands.com wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:27:16 +0100, Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>Quoth Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk>:
>>
>>Do not change your posting address. It will not encourage those of us
>>who have you killfiled to take you any more seriously.
>>
>>Ben
>
>Killfile, who DIES there?
>
>Isin't that a just a filter, or do you actually commit murder and should be reported
>to the police (give them your isp)?
>
>Filtering posts are a good thing if true spambots. Not so good with real people.
>But hey, it sounds very impressive KILL file, like your murdering somebody.
>All it does is exclude yourself, not others.
>
>LOL.....
>
>sln
Another form of CONTROL isin't it? Mention kill and your cyber decapitated,
or are you?
sln
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:32:47 -0500
From: Tad J McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <slrnga1fgf.lg8.tadmc@tadmc30.sbcglobal.net>
Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> Dr.Ruud wrote:
>> Adam Worrall schreef:
>>
>>> How can a _volunteer_ service be _obligated_ to do anything? They are
>>> volunteers...
>>
>> They will be sent away when they don't. You are not contributing so you
>> should really leave now.
>
> And you people complain when someone starts dictating policy... what the
> hell do you call this?
An attempt to increase the fidelity in clpmisc.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:17:21 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <m17iankrxq.fsf@dot-app.org>
Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> writes:
> When did I say that? All I said was that it functions like a
> _volunteer_ help desk
What you said is wrong. Help desk workers are obligated to answer
questions as given. The fact that they've chosen to voluntarily accept
that obligation makes it no less binding once it's been accepted. It's
kind of like military service in the US. No one is drafted, but the
fact that you volunteer to serve doesn't imply that you can pick and
choose which assignments to accept.
No such obligation exists on usenet, in *any* group. We're free to
answer questions if we want, but we can also choose to laugh at,
ignore, or discuss them in ways that aren't at all helpful to the
person asking them.
> How about you acquire some reading comprehension skills and start
> thinking for yourself instead of allowing people like Tad to do the
> thinking for you based on things I didn't actually say.
I *do* think for myself, jerk - and I think your attitude sucks. Put
up or shut up - if you want this group to be more helpful, then start
answering some questions. You know, like Tad does.
sherm--
--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
------------------------------
Date: 12 Aug 2008 00:21:37 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <Xns9AF7C4F02A8Bcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@remove.cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> You don't know what you're talking about. The statement was that a
> news groups like this functions as a _voluntary_ help desk. No one is
> obligated to answer anything but they do because they want to.
Something that /appears/ to function as, in this case, a voluntary help
desk, doesn't make it one.
Voluntary still implies that there are rules / guidelines. If I volunteer
to feed homeless people, I can't feed them dogfood for example, nor can I
feed one, and reject another for random reasons. Also, I have to be at a
certain place, on time.
There are no such rules here, hence, this *not a helpdesk*, voluntary or
not. This is a discussion group. If you get help out of it, fine. But you
can't insist on getting help from the participants, even if your question
is 100% Perl related and answerable by them.
In short: you're wrong, but nice trolling.
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: 12 Aug 2008 00:03:56 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion forum sofware in perl
Message-Id: <Xns9AF7C1F07172Ecastleamber@130.133.1.4>
John <John.Smith@invalid.com> wrote:
> John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>If the messages are stored in a database, it's not that difficult to
>>add the former (I've added a simple RSS feed to the aforementioned
>>PHPbb forum that way).
>
> The problem is that the database format is proprietary and not
> documented. To make thing more complicated the data is spread between
> a number of files.
You mean that instead of a database files are used (or a mix even)?
Anyway, if you can post via a browser, you can post via Perl. If you need
help on this, see sig :-D.
If the board has a way to see "n recent posts" or "all new posts since
last login" it can be done with web automation as well.
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/help-in-exchange-for-a-gift.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 01:37:22 GMT
From: Michael Carman <mjcarman@mchsi.com>
Subject: Re: double slash operator syntax question
Message-Id: <mP5ok.239403$TT4.209973@attbi_s22>
Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>
> $lb_lang // ($lb_lang = 'en');
For some reason I find that very jarring. I think it's because I prefer
to use the low-precedence equivalents when doing control flow. (Of
course, // doesn't have one.)
$lb_lang //= 'en';
is much cleaner, IMHO.
-mjc
------------------------------
Date: 12 Aug 2008 00:06:44 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: empty "if" statement - it doesn't look nice, does it?
Message-Id: <Xns9AF7C26A2A15Dcastleamber@130.133.1.4>
sln@netherlands.com wrote:
> However, as a long time C++ programmer, I can tell you that I do this
> all the time. Why?
>
> As a placeholder if the condition were to someday be true.
I LOLed
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 01:49:55 GMT
From: Michael Carman <mjcarman@mchsi.com>
Subject: Re: FAQ 5.6 How do I make a temporary file name?
Message-Id: <7%5ok.294061$yE1.148747@attbi_s21>
Ted Zlatanov wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:21:25 GMT Michael Carman <mjcarman@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
> MC> Quite a few of the FAQ entries implicitly assume that they're being read
> MC> locally and thus have the necessary version of perl available. Between
> MC> postings here and online versions this isn't a safe assumption.
>
> If something's posted, it should be the FAQ pertaining to the latest
> Perl, don't you think?
The postings here should be (and are) the bleeding edge -- entries that
may not have even been released with Perl in their present state. For
that very same reason, the answers should be qualified (if necessary)
since it will be read by people running many different versions.
> I'd add a 'use 5.8...' line to the FAQ answer in such cases, it's a lot
> more concise than writing out "it requires 5.8" and the code will fail
> in a more obvious way (even if the FAQ reader doesn't bother to read the
> whole entry).
The mechanism doesn't much concern me so long as readers have the
necessary information to determine which solution should work for them.
-mjc
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:26:07 -0500
From: Tad J McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Subject: Re: Newbie: Replacing double newlines
Message-Id: <slrnga1ikf.lg8.tadmc@tadmc30.sbcglobal.net>
Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 13:01:36 +0200 magloca <magloca@mailinater.com> wrote:
>
> m> Ben Morrow wrote:
>>> -0777 is equivalent to BEGIN { $/ = undef }: see perlrun.
>
> m> Wow, that's obscure even for Perl. :D
>
> You don't want to know what -0666 does (one side effect is, the hex()
> function is redefined to do something entirely different).
Should that be added to this list?
http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_humor/Number_of_the_beast
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:33:35 GMT
From: sln@netherlands.com
Subject: Perl - Statistics and AI
Message-Id: <hhh1a4dc1f1s1k4cn6dc95iklg1mhsaet8@4ax.com>
Hi,
It would be nice to see, and draw in, some expertise in statistics and AI
into the Perl community here.
I think these two categories will inspire excellent Perl programmers
into developing algo's and post them in free space, here, for all to gleen
and learn.
This as opposed to reading some convoluted google found runabout.
So post some Perl specific method's so we can learn PAST the syntax of Perl
and maybe get intimite knowledge of science, here here..
I'm an engineer, BS. I've worked 3 years as an engineer, 25 years as a
programmer in the engineering janra. Yea, I was a computer buff with
TS ZX80/81/2068 on Zilog's, doing assembly graph plotting. Later
8000 series, 8080, 8086, went to Motorola's, all for a hobby.
Back then, cpu registers were vastly different then calculators, and much
more intriguing.
My earlies recollections of higher/consolidated language's were mostly of
kernel's. I learned Pascal's BEGIN/END structure stuff working with Tandy's
and thier 8-1/2 floppy os. Then I bought the first Amiga 1000. But I also
bought the white ROM KERNEL manuals to with it. Never forget it, it was my
first experience with DLL's, Dynamic Loaded Library's... amazing, 1985...
I quickly raced through all the code/articles I could get my hands on.
Manual after manual, reading/writing to ports, hardware affects, timing,
clocks.
I soon settled on algo's, digested interresting concepts.
It would be nice to see more interrest, in this group, placed more on usage of
the language instead of syntax.
But, see, the thing is, like math, language and syntax is useless alone.
I do see sporadic usage examples of network/cgi/xml, all the nice things
that don't amount to anything. All they do is move data from one place to
another, childs play in concept. The little tinker, os specific details
are nice to show off, but they are just a drop in the OCEAN !!!
Can we start talkin ALGO'S in Perl, like STATISTICS/NUMERICAL METHODS/AI
for a change?
Thanks.
sln
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:51:58 +0200 (CEST)
From: Ben Bullock <benkasminbullock@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Perl - Statistics and AI
Message-Id: <g7qqbu$p95$1@aioe.org>
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:33:35 +0000, sln wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It would be nice to see, and draw in, some expertise in statistics and
AI
> into the Perl community here.
>
> I think these two categories will inspire excellent Perl programmers
> into developing algo's and post them in free space, here, for all to
gleen
> and learn.
>
> This as opposed to reading some convoluted google found runabout.
>
> So post some Perl specific method's so we can learn PAST the syntax of
Perl
> and maybe get intimite knowledge of science, here here..
>
> I'm an engineer, BS. I've worked 3 years as an engineer, 25 years as a
> programmer in the engineering janra. Yea, I was a computer buff with
> TS ZX80/81/2068 on Zilog's, doing assembly graph plotting. Later
> 8000 series, 8080, 8086, went to Motorola's, all for a hobby.
> Back then, cpu registers were vastly different then calculators, and
much
> more intriguing.
>
> My earlies recollections of higher/consolidated language's were mostly
of
> kernel's. I learned Pascal's BEGIN/END structure stuff working with
Tandy's
> and thier 8-1/2 floppy os. Then I bought the first Amiga 1000. But I
also
> bought the white ROM KERNEL manuals to with it. Never forget it, it was
my
> first experience with DLL's, Dynamic Loaded Library's... amazing,
1985...
>
> I quickly raced through all the code/articles I could get my hands on.
> Manual after manual, reading/writing to ports, hardware affects, timing,
> clocks.
>
> I soon settled on algo's, digested interresting concepts.
>
> It would be nice to see more interrest, in this group, placed more on
usage of
> the language instead of syntax.
>
> But, see, the thing is, like math, language and syntax is useless alone.
> I do see sporadic usage examples of network/cgi/xml, all the nice things
> that don't amount to anything. All they do is move data from one place
to
> another, childs play in concept. The little tinker, os specific details
> are nice to show off, but they are just a drop in the OCEAN !!!
>
> Can we start talkin ALGO'S in Perl, like STATISTICS/NUMERICAL METHODS/AI
> for a change?
It's a bit difficult to respond to such a vague topic. What particular
aspect of statistics, numerical methods, or artificial intelligence do
you have in mind?
Anyway Perl is hopeless at numerical stuff, so I doubt anyone is
seriously using Perl for number crunching.
As for artificial intelligence, is that still around?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:59:16 -0500
From: Tad J McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Subject: Re: Perl - Statistics and AI
Message-Id: <slrnga1rjk.muk.tadmc@tadmc30.sbcglobal.net>
sln@netherlands.com <sln@netherlands.com> wrote:
> It would be nice to see, and draw in, some expertise in statistics and AI
> into the Perl community here.
63.2% of the readers of this newsgroup already have that expertise.
About 50% of those (31.6%) are naturally intelligent.
> programmer in the engineering janra.
I thought Janra was a headset manufacturer... no, that's Jabra.
I know what you were trying to say, but do you realize that
the "n" is the only letter that appears in the correct spelling?
Sheesh.
[ snip walking 10 miles to school in the snow. ]
> Can we start talkin ALGO'S in Perl,
Algorithms are language agnostic.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:29:49 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: Perl - Statistics and AI
Message-Id: <t597n5-9es.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth Ben Bullock <benkasminbullock@gmail.com>:
>
> Anyway Perl is hopeless at numerical stuff, so I doubt anyone is
> seriously using Perl for number crunching.
http://search.cpan.org/~csoe/PDL-2.4.3/
Ben
--
Although few may originate a policy, we are all able to judge it.
Pericles of Athens, c.430 B.C.
ben@morrow.me.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:05:02 -0500
From: Overt <nowhere@nowhere.com>
Subject: Re: Trying to understand a constructor with an array.
Message-Id: <3OKdnRijwNMzTj3VnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@oco.net>
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:11:23 +0200, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>
> especially if the second shift would be hidden in a complex expression
> and not be immediately visible to the reader (I sometimes do use shift
> (or even pop) to deal with optional arguments).
>
You have hit the main problem for examples in tutorial/documentation.
Many times I find the answer I am looking for, and it works when I
paste/run it, but the writer has bound it up in a complex expression that
is not at all obvious to the reader. Some of the examples of a simple
function are so complex that it appears that the writer was just trying to
show off.
It is just my opinion, but complex expressions are for production code.
Tutorial examples of code should have one function per line so that the
learner can easily decode what the code is doing. The production programmer
can always pack the stuff together if wanted.
Even with functions I am familiar with, I usually leave them broken apart
just so that months later I can tell at a glance what I was trying to do.
Overt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 01:54:19 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: Trying to understand a constructor with an array.
Message-Id: <ri37n5-89p.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth Overt <nowhere@nowhere.com>:
>
> It is just my opinion, but complex expressions are for production code.
> Tutorial examples of code should have one function per line so that the
> learner can easily decode what the code is doing. The production programmer
> can always pack the stuff together if wanted.
I would disagree here: production code should *also* be written as
clearly as possible. It is even more important in that case that the
code be comprehensible: at least when working through a tutorial you
have the luxury of spending as much time as you need figuring things
out.
OTOH, composing expressions doesn't necessarily make them more complex.
One of the problems with languages like C is that the code ends up so
spread out it's difficult to see the flow of the logic: you end up being
unable to see the wood for the trees.
> Even with functions I am familiar with, I usually leave them broken apart
> just so that months later I can tell at a glance what I was trying to do.
Good. You should always think about how the code will read to someone
coming to it for the first time.
Ben
--
It will be seen that the Erwhonians are a meek and long-suffering people,
easily led by the nose, and quick to offer up common sense at the shrine of
logic, when a philosopher convinces them that their institutions are not based
on the strictest morality. [Samuel Butler, paraphrased] ben@morrow.me.uk
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 1788
***************************************
