[30536] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1779 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Fri Aug 8 06:09:42 2008
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 03:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Fri, 8 Aug 2008 Volume: 11 Number: 1779
Today's topics:
Re: CLPM - a help group? <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Re: CLPM - a help group? <rkb@i.frys.com>
Re: How to check for filetype existence quickly <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Re: Installing CPAN modules in production system <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
new CPAN modules on Fri Aug 8 2008 (Randal Schwartz)
Re: OO Perl <usenet@larseighner.com>
Re: OO Perl <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim>
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Re: <LeoFranks08042008@gmail.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:48:19 -0500
From: Tad J McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <slrng9n5uj.7rh.tadmc@tadmc30.sbcglobal.net>
Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> Tad J McClellan wrote:
>> Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
>>
>>>> If I were to say "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a help desk" I would be
>>>> merely stating my opinion
>>
>>
>> Just as Adam is free to state his opinion that it _is_ a help desk.
>
> Ok.
>
>>>> on the consensus view (as observed by me) of
>>>> the main participants
>>
>>> You're assuming the consensus (as in everyone's opinion) is in agreeance
>>> to what you are saying, and that is something you cannot really confirm.
>>
>>
>> And neither can you confirm that it is not the consensus.
>>
>> So where does that leave us?
>
> I leaves us with a charter that doesn't say it is or isn't a "help
> desk", and anyone attempting to make authoritative claims it no better
> than a DNS server giving responses for a domain it is not responsible for.
And you are making an authoritative claim that is a help desk.
It is OK for you to make claims, but not OK for other to make claims?
Who died and made you king?
>> There is no obligation to help in clpmisc, which is why people
>> say that it is not a help desk.
>
> Which is wrong,
There you go with the authoritative claims again.
Your wisdom is greater than anyone else who is here, that is clear.
So you have nothing left to prove. We will all do as you say immediately.
Thanks for saving our newsgroup.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:56:25 -0500
From: Tad J McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <slrng9n6dp.7rh.tadmc@tadmc30.sbcglobal.net>
Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
>> Adam Worrall wrote:
>>> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
>>>> Adam Worrall wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I say "the sky is blue" it is an observation, I am not
>>>> legislating what the sky may or may not do.
>>>
>>> But it is a known fact that the sky is blue,
>>
>> Today it is grey.
>
> The clouds are grey, the sky is still blue.
And this newsgroup is still not a help desk.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:15:08 -0700
From: Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <N_Nmk.9722$L_.2510@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>
brian d foy wrote:
> In article <Girmk.19323$Ri.16261@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com>, Adam Worrall
> <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>> This still isn't a help desk, but I'm usually happy to help people when
>>> I can. :)
>> No disrespect intended, but I don't think you've ever spent any time on
>> a volunteer-run help desk before. Oh wait, you post in clpm :)
>
> I've sat on volunteer help desks and paid help desks.
I've sat on actual volunteer help desks myself about 11 years ago in a
national park. Usually people would either come in or walk in and if we
had the answer we would freely provide it, but we didn't have to do. We
weren't paid. We were just there to help the Park service.
> You might say that you mean no disrespect, but fuck you.
Really, am I supposed to be impressed? I was being quite civil, so I'm
not sure why you felt this was warranted. I fact, you of all people I
had always thought as one of the better mannered people around here, and
not someone who devolves into a 3rd grader's tantrum. Guess CLPM
continues to never cease to amaze me.
> You said it, you mean it, and you're too much of a pussy to
> stand by what you typed and posted.
Ok what the hell are you talking about here? How have I not stood by
everything I've said? I don't know where all your hostility is coming
from but now you're just creating fiction.
> But no matter. You're just another shithead who won't be around in a
> year when I'm still answering questions and helping people.
Tell me, does it surprise you at all that this news group gets the
reputation that it keeps getting, and that the behavior you just
displayed does absolutely nothing to help. I would expect you, the FAQ
maintainer of all people, to present yourself in the way you yourself
would like to be treated, rather than attempting to refute an argument
with a "fuck you."
- Adam
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:25:30 -0700
From: Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <v8Omk.9724$L_.5776@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>
Tad J McClellan wrote:
> Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Tad J McClellan wrote:
>>> Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
>>>>> If I were to say "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a help desk" I would be
>>>>> merely stating my opinion
>>>
>>> Just as Adam is free to state his opinion that it _is_ a help desk.
>> Ok.
>>
>>>>> on the consensus view (as observed by me) of
>>>>> the main participants
>>>> You're assuming the consensus (as in everyone's opinion) is in agreeance
>>>> to what you are saying, and that is something you cannot really confirm.
>>>
>>> And neither can you confirm that it is not the consensus.
>>>
>>> So where does that leave us?
>> I leaves us with a charter that doesn't say it is or isn't a "help
>> desk", and anyone attempting to make authoritative claims it no better
>> than a DNS server giving responses for a domain it is not responsible for.
>
>
> And you are making an authoritative claim that is a help desk.
Wrong. I said it acts just like a volunteer based help desk, like the
one I once worked in. That's that the same as saying it _is_ a help desk.
> It is OK for you to make claims, but not OK for other to make claims?
I didn't make the claim. The point was that people like yourself make
the opposite claim, and yet it's ok for you to do it?
> Who died and made you king?
What about yourself? What about all the times you have said it _wasn't_
a help desk? How is that any different than if I had made the claim you
said I did (which I didn't - see above.)
>>> There is no obligation to help in clpmisc, which is why people
>>> say that it is not a help desk.
>> Which is wrong,
>
>
> There you go with the authoritative claims again.
You once again snipped the context and changed what I said:
"Which is wrong, because clpmisc functions as a volunteer help service."
I don't see how you can dispute this, as it is exactly how this and most
technical groups function; people ask questions, and anyone who wants to
answers, but no one _has_ to answer.
> Your wisdom is greater than anyone else who is here, that is clear.
And you ability to snip relevant context to make it sound like I said
something different than what I said is even more clear.
> So you have nothing left to prove. We will all do as you say immediately.
Why is it you and various others who support your side can assert what
is and isn't right yet when you see someone else doing the same for the
opposite for what you believe, it is suddenly wrong? Why the double
standard?
- Adam
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:27:45 -0700
From: Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <BaOmk.9725$L_.2520@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>
Tad J McClellan wrote:
> Adam Worrall <worrall+unet@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
>>> Adam Worrall wrote:
>>>> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
>>>>> Adam Worrall wrote:
>>>>> When I say "the sky is blue" it is an observation, I am not
>>>>> legislating what the sky may or may not do.
>>>> But it is a known fact that the sky is blue,
>>> Today it is grey.
>> The clouds are grey, the sky is still blue.
>
>
> And this newsgroup is still not a help desk.
There you go again. In your other post you complained about me asserting
what is and isn't right in this group (which was false), and here you
are doing just that. Who is acting like a king here? What makes you an
authority on weather or not this is a help desk (despite the fact that
it functions just like a _volunteer_ help desk) ?
- Adam
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 23:12:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ron Bergin <rkb@i.frys.com>
Subject: Re: CLPM - a help group?
Message-Id: <0474bcc3-a21f-4217-b73c-a731e7b95af2@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com>
On Aug 7, 10:31 am, Adam Worrall <worrall+u...@cs.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
> > Adam Worrall wrote:
> >> RedGrittyBrick wrote:
> >>> Adam Worrall wrote:
>
> >>> When I say "the sky is blue" it is an observation, I am not
> >>> legislating what the sky may or may not do.
>
> >> But it is a known fact that the sky is blue,
>
> > Today it is grey.
>
> The clouds are grey, the sky is still blue.
>
I hope that you don't apply that same type of "logic" and observation
to your programing. If you do, then you're a really poor programmer.
Right now the sky above me is "black", and at other times I see a
redish-orange sky. Based on your statement, one can only assume that
you have no clue as to why or how the sky and or clouds appear as blue
or grey or whatever. If you didn't know and refuse to see that the
sky can appear as different colors, then you will never be able to see
that CLPM is not a helpdesk.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:00:53 -0500
From: Tad J McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Subject: Re: How to check for filetype existence quickly
Message-Id: <slrng9n6m5.7rh.tadmc@tadmc30.sbcglobal.net>
fidokomik <fidokomik@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 6, 12:02 pm, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
>> Did you try globbing to see if it is any faster:
>>
>> $found = 0;
>> if (</usr/home/lars/saves/*.cgi>){
>> $found = 1;
>>
>> }
>>
> Hmm, easy and quick. Thank you Lars. But how to pass variable to this
> but avoid eval()? Is it possible?
$extension = 'cgi';
if (</usr/home/lars/saves/*.$extension>){
Though that would be the bad kind of Lazy, IMO.
It makes it easier for the 1 programmer at the expense of making it
harder for the many readers/maintainers.
So I would instead write it for others rather than for myself:
if ( glob "/usr/home/lars/saves/*.$extension" ) {
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:08:25 -0500
From: Tad J McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Subject: Re: Installing CPAN modules in production system
Message-Id: <slrng9nakp.7rh.tadmc@tadmc30.sbcglobal.net>
RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@SpamWeary.foo> wrote:
> There's probably an answer in perlfaq*. I can't find it, but this is close:
perldoc -q module
How do I keep my own module/library directory?
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:42:22 GMT
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal Schwartz)
Subject: new CPAN modules on Fri Aug 8 2008
Message-Id: <K59MEM.7nI@zorch.sf-bay.org>
The following modules have recently been added to or updated in the
Comprehensive Perl Archive Network (CPAN). You can install them using the
instructions in the 'perlmodinstall' page included with your Perl
distribution.
Apache2-ASP-1.58
http://search.cpan.org/~johnd/Apache2-ASP-1.58/
Perl extension for ASP on mod_perl2.
----
Array-Tour-0.05
http://search.cpan.org/~jgamble/Array-Tour-0.05/
Base class for Array Tours.
----
CGI-RSS-0.8
http://search.cpan.org/~jettero/CGI-RSS-0.8/
provides a CGI-like interface for making rss feeds
----
CPAN-CachingProxy-1.1
http://search.cpan.org/~jettero/CPAN-CachingProxy-1.1/
A very simple lightweight CGI based Caching Proxy
----
Catalyst-Action-REST-0.63
http://search.cpan.org/~jshirley/Catalyst-Action-REST-0.63/
Automated REST Method Dispatching
----
Catalyst-Model-Adaptor-0.03
http://search.cpan.org/~jrockway/Catalyst-Model-Adaptor-0.03/
use a plain class as a Catalyst model
----
Catalyst-View-Template-Declare-0.04
http://search.cpan.org/~jrockway/Catalyst-View-Template-Declare-0.04/
Use Template::Declare with Catalyst
----
CatalystX-ListFramework-Builder-0.16
http://search.cpan.org/~oliver/CatalystX-ListFramework-Builder-0.16/
Instant AJAX web front-end for DBIx::Class, using Catalyst
----
Class-Data-Accessor-0.04003
http://search.cpan.org/~claco/Class-Data-Accessor-0.04003/
Inheritable, overridable class and instance data accessor creation
----
DBD-SQLite-Amalgamation-3.6.1
http://search.cpan.org/~audreyt/DBD-SQLite-Amalgamation-3.6.1/
Single C-file based DBD::SQLite distribution
----
Data-AMF-0.02
http://search.cpan.org/~typester/Data-AMF-0.02/
serialize / deserialize AMF data
----
Data-AMF-0.02001
http://search.cpan.org/~typester/Data-AMF-0.02001/
serialize / deserialize AMF data
----
Data-Report-0.08
http://search.cpan.org/~jv/Data-Report-0.08/
Framework for flexible reporting
----
Data-Report-0.09
http://search.cpan.org/~jv/Data-Report-0.09/
Framework for flexible reporting
----
Data-Section-0.005
http://search.cpan.org/~rjbs/Data-Section-0.005/
read multiple hunks of data out of your DATA section
----
DateTime-Format-Natural-0.71_04
http://search.cpan.org/~schubiger/DateTime-Format-Natural-0.71_04/
Create machine readable date/time with natural parsing logic
----
Devel-FindBlessedRefs-1.2
http://search.cpan.org/~jettero/Devel-FindBlessedRefs-1.2/
find all refs blessed under a package
----
Devel-StackTrace-WithLexicals-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~sartak/Devel-StackTrace-WithLexicals-0.01/
Devel::StackTrace + PadWalker
----
Email-Public-0.07
http://search.cpan.org/~jeteve/Email-Public-0.07/
Quickly find if an email address is from a public email provider
----
ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.19_02
http://search.cpan.org/~kwilliams/ExtUtils-ParseXS-2.19_02/
converts Perl XS code into C code
----
Finance-InteractiveBrokers-TWS-0.1.0
http://search.cpan.org/~jstrauss/Finance-InteractiveBrokers-TWS-0.1.0/
Lets you talk to Interactivebrokers Trader's Workstation using Perl.
----
Finance-InteractiveBrokers-TWS-0.1.1
http://search.cpan.org/~jstrauss/Finance-InteractiveBrokers-TWS-0.1.1/
Lets you talk to Interactivebrokers Trader's Workstation using Perl.
----
GD-2.40
http://search.cpan.org/~lds/GD-2.40/
Interface to Gd Graphics Library
----
GD-2.41
http://search.cpan.org/~lds/GD-2.41/
Interface to Gd Graphics Library
----
Games-Solitaire-Verify-0.04
http://search.cpan.org/~shlomif/Games-Solitaire-Verify-0.04/
verify solutions for solitaire games.
----
HTML-Tested-0.39
http://search.cpan.org/~bosu/HTML-Tested-0.39/
Provides HTML widgets with the built-in means of testing.
----
HTML-Tiny-1.02
http://search.cpan.org/~andya/HTML-Tiny-1.02/
Lightweight, dependency free HTML/XML generation
----
HTML-Tiny-1.03
http://search.cpan.org/~andya/HTML-Tiny-1.03/
Lightweight, dependency free HTML/XML generation
----
HTTP-Server-Simple-Bonjour-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/HTTP-Server-Simple-Bonjour-0.01/
Bonjour plugin for HTTP::Server::Simple
----
IO-Lambda-0.23
http://search.cpan.org/~karasik/IO-Lambda-0.23/
non-blocking I/O in lambda style
----
Iterator-Diamond-0.03
http://search.cpan.org/~jv/Iterator-Diamond-0.03/
Iterate through the files from ARGV
----
Math-Counting-0.08
http://search.cpan.org/~gene/Math-Counting-0.08/
Combinatorial counting operations
----
Math-Counting-0.0801
http://search.cpan.org/~gene/Math-Counting-0.0801/
Combinatorial counting operations
----
Object-Previous-1.1
http://search.cpan.org/~jettero/Object-Previous-1.1/
find the instance of the object that called your function
----
PDF-Burst-1.04
http://search.cpan.org/~leocharre/PDF-Burst-1.04/
create one pdf doc for each page in existing pdf document
----
POE-Component-SSLify-0.14
http://search.cpan.org/~apocal/POE-Component-SSLify-0.14/
Makes using SSL in the world of POE easy!
----
POE-Component-Server-SOAP-1.13
http://search.cpan.org/~apocal/POE-Component-Server-SOAP-1.13/
publish POE event handlers via SOAP over HTTP
----
POSIX-Regex-1.000_000
http://search.cpan.org/~jettero/POSIX-Regex-1.000_000/
OO interface for the gnu regex engine
----
Path-Abstract-0.091
http://search.cpan.org/~rkrimen/Path-Abstract-0.091/
Fast and featureful UNIX-style path manipulation
----
Path-Abstract-0.092
http://search.cpan.org/~rkrimen/Path-Abstract-0.092/
Fast and featureful UNIX-style path manipulation
----
Perl-Tags-0.26
http://search.cpan.org/~osfameron/Perl-Tags-0.26/
Generate (possibly exuberant) Ctags style tags for Perl sourcecode
----
Pod-Usage-CommandLine-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~ctilmes/Pod-Usage-CommandLine-0.01/
Add some common command line options from Pod::Usage
----
Squatting-0.51
http://search.cpan.org/~beppu/Squatting-0.51/
A Camping-inspired Web Microframework for Perl
----
Statistics-Basic-1.0
http://search.cpan.org/~jettero/Statistics-Basic-1.0/
A collection of very basic statistics modules
----
Sys-Info-0.63
http://search.cpan.org/~burak/Sys-Info-0.63/
Fetch information from the host system
----
TRD-Uranai-0.0.2
http://search.cpan.org/~ichi/TRD-Uranai-0.0.2/
Today's Uranai Count down.
----
Template-Toolkit-2.19_01
http://search.cpan.org/~abw/Template-Toolkit-2.19_01/
Template Processing System
----
Unix-Process-1.300_000
http://search.cpan.org/~jettero/Unix-Process-1.300_000/
Perl extension to get pid info from (/bin/ps).
----
Weather-Bug-0.22
http://search.cpan.org/~gwadej/Weather-Bug-0.22/
Provide an object oriented interface to the WeatherBug API.
If you're an author of one of these modules, please submit a detailed
announcement to comp.lang.perl.announce, and we'll pass it along.
This message was generated by a Perl program described in my Linux
Magazine column, which can be found on-line (along with more than
200 other freely available past column articles) at
http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col82.html
print "Just another Perl hacker," # the original
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:47:08 +0000 (UTC)
From: Lars Eighner <usenet@larseighner.com>
Subject: Re: OO Perl
Message-Id: <slrng9njkl.24f2.usenet@debranded.larseighner.com>
In our last episode,
<c5c123fe-7f92-4c9d-9ea4-7e24066bfdae@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Matt
broadcast on comp.lang.perl.misc:
> Hello everyone,
> I've been using perl for the last 5 or 6 years and in the past 2
> years I've been doing things in a much more object oriented style.
You're the one! Please! Stop encouraging them.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com
Save the whales! Collect the whole set!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:26:26 +0100
From: bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim>
Subject: Re: OO Perl
Message-Id: <Adednea1QNevngHVnZ2dnUVZ8uydnZ2d@posted.plusnet>
Matt wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> I've been using perl for the last 5 or 6 years and in the past 2
> years I've been doing things in a much more object oriented style.
> I'm just wondering how many people out there in the Perl community are
> using Perl as an OO solution rather than a different OO language, like
> Ruby.
I use OO techniques in perl for the same reason
I use them in other languages - they're effective.
BugBear
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 07:12:41 GMT
From: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Subject: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.8 $)
Message-Id: <JlSmk.14740$LG4.1611@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>
Outline
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
- Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
Really Really Should
- Lurk for a while before posting
- Search a Usenet archive
If You Like
- Check Other Resources
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Is there a better place to ask your question?
- Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
- Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
- Use an effective followup style
- Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
- Ask perl to help you
- Do not re-type Perl code
- Provide enough information
- Do not provide too much information
- Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
Social faux pas to avoid
- Asking a Frequently Asked Question
- Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
- Asking for emailed answers
- Beware of saying "doesn't work"
- Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
Be extra cautious when you get upset
- Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
- Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.8 $)
This newsgroup, commonly called clpmisc, is a technical newsgroup
intended to be used for discussion of Perl related issues (except job
postings), whether it be comments or questions.
As you would expect, clpmisc discussions are usually very technical in
nature and there are conventions for conduct in technical newsgroups
going somewhat beyond those in non-technical newsgroups.
The article at:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
describes how to get answers from technical people in general.
This article describes things that you should, and should not, do to
increase your chances of getting an answer to your Perl question. It is
available in POD, HTML and plain text formats at:
http://www.rehabitation.com/clpmisc.shtml
For more information about netiquette in general, see the "Netiquette
Guidelines" at:
http://andrew2.andrew.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc1855.html
A note to newsgroup "regulars":
Do not use these guidelines as a "license to flame" or other
meanness. It is possible that a poster is unaware of things
discussed here. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and just
help them learn how to post, rather than assume that they do
know and are being the "bad kind" of Lazy.
A note about technical terms used here:
In this document, we use words like "must" and "should" as
they're used in technical conversation (such as you will
encounter in this newsgroup). When we say that you *must* do
something, we mean that if you don't do that something, then
it's unlikely that you will benefit much from this group.
We're not bossing you around; we're making the point without
lots of words.
Do *NOT* send email to the maintainer of these guidelines. It will be
discarded unread. The guidelines belong to the newsgroup so all
discussion should appear in the newsgroup. I am just the secretary that
writes down the consensus of the group.
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
This section describes things that you *must* do before posting to
clpmisc, in order to maximize your chances of getting meaningful replies
to your inquiry and to avoid getting flamed for being lazy and trying to
have others do your work.
The perl distribution includes documentation that is copied to your hard
drive when you install perl. Also installed is a program for looking
things up in that (and other) documentation named 'perldoc'.
You should either find out where the docs got installed on your system,
or use perldoc to find them for you. Type "perldoc perldoc" to learn how
to use perldoc itself. Type "perldoc perl" to start reading Perl's
standard documentation.
Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Checking the FAQ before posting is required in Big 8 newsgroups in
general, there is nothing clpmisc-specific about this requirement.
You are expected to do this in nearly all newsgroups.
You can use the "-q" switch with perldoc to do a word search of the
questions in the Perl FAQs.
Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
The perl distribution comes with much more documentation than is
available for most other newsgroups, so in clpmisc you should also
see if you can find an answer in the other (non-FAQ) standard docs
before posting.
It is *not* required, or even expected, that you actually *read* all of
Perl's standard docs, only that you spend a few minutes searching them
before posting.
Try doing a word-search in the standard docs for some words/phrases
taken from your problem statement or from your very carefully worded
"Subject:" header.
Really Really Should
This section describes things that you *really should* do before posting
to clpmisc.
Lurk for a while before posting
This is very important and expected in all newsgroups. Lurking means
to monitor a newsgroup for a period to become familiar with local
customs. Each newsgroup has specific customs and rituals. Knowing
these before you participate will help avoid embarrassing social
situations. Consider yourself to be a foreigner at first!
Search a Usenet archive
There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers. It is very likely
that your question has already been asked (and answered). See if you
can find where it has already been answered.
One such searchable archive is:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search
If You Like
This section describes things that you *can* do before posting to
clpmisc.
Check Other Resources
You may want to check in books or on web sites to see if you can
find the answer to your question.
But you need to consider the source of such information: there are a
lot of very poor Perl books and web sites, and several good ones
too, of course.
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
There can be 200 messages in clpmisc in a single day. Nobody is going to
read every article. They must decide somehow which articles they are
going to read, and which they will skip.
Your post is in competition with 199 other posts. You need to "win"
before a person who can help you will even read your question.
These sections describe how you can help keep your article from being
one of the "skipped" ones.
Is there a better place to ask your question?
Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
It can be difficult to separate out where your problem really is,
but you should make a conscious effort to post to the most
applicable newsgroup. That is, after all, where you are the most
likely to find the people who know how to answer your question.
Being able to "partition" a problem is an essential skill for
effectively troubleshooting programming problems. If you don't get
that right, you end up looking for answers in the wrong places.
It should be understood that you may not know that the root of your
problem is not Perl-related (the two most frequent ones are CGI and
Operating System related), so off-topic postings will happen from
time to time. Be gracious when someone helps you find a better place
to ask your question by pointing you to a more applicable newsgroup.
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
You have 40 precious characters of Subject to win out and be one of
the posts that gets read. Don't waste them. Take care while
composing them, they are the key that opens the door to getting an
answer.
Spend them indicating what aspect of Perl others will find if they
should decide to read your article.
Do not spend them indicating "experience level" (guru, newbie...).
Do not spend them pleading (please read, urgent, help!...).
Do not spend them on non-Subjects (Perl question, one-word
Subject...)
For more information on choosing a Subject see "Choosing Good
Subject Lines":
http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/D/DM/DMR/subjects.post
Part of the beauty of newsgroup dynamics, is that you can contribute
to the community with your very first post! If your choice of
Subject leads a fellow Perler to find the thread you are starting,
then even asking a question helps us all.
Use an effective followup style
When composing a followup, quote only enough text to establish the
context for the comments that you will add. Always indicate who
wrote the quoted material. Never quote an entire article. Never
quote a .signature (unless that is what you are commenting on).
Intersperse your comments *following* each section of quoted text to
which they relate. Unappreciated followup styles are referred to as
"top-posting", "Jeopardy" (because the answer comes before the
question), or "TOFU" (Text Over, Fullquote Under).
Reversing the chronology of the dialog makes it much harder to
understand (some folks won't even read it if written in that style).
For more information on quoting style, see:
http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/nquote.html
Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
Perl is much more precise than natural language. Saying it in Perl
instead will avoid misunderstanding your question or problem.
Do not say: I have variable with "foo\tbar" in it.
Instead say: I have $var = "foo\tbar", or I have $var = 'foo\tbar',
or I have $var = <DATA> (and show the data line).
Ask perl to help you
You can ask perl itself to help you find common programming mistakes
by doing two things: enable warnings (perldoc warnings) and enable
"strict"ures (perldoc strict).
You should not bother the hundreds/thousands of readers of the
newsgroup without first seeing if a machine can help you find your
problem. It is demeaning to be asked to do the work of a machine. It
will annoy the readers of your article.
You can look up any of the messages that perl might issue to find
out what the message means and how to resolve the potential mistake
(perldoc perldiag). If you would like perl to look them up for you,
you can put "use diagnostics;" near the top of your program.
Do not re-type Perl code
Use copy/paste or your editor's "import" function rather than
attempting to type in your code. If you make a typo you will get
followups about your typos instead of about the question you are
trying to get answered.
Provide enough information
If you do the things in this item, you will have an Extremely Good
chance of getting people to try and help you with your problem!
These features are a really big bonus toward your question winning
out over all of the other posts that you are competing with.
First make a short (less than 20-30 lines) and *complete* program
that illustrates the problem you are having. People should be able
to run your program by copy/pasting the code from your article. (You
will find that doing this step very often reveals your problem
directly. Leading to an answer much more quickly and reliably than
posting to Usenet.)
Describe *precisely* the input to your program. Also provide example
input data for your program. If you need to show file input, use the
__DATA__ token (perldata.pod) to provide the file contents inside of
your Perl program.
Show the output (including the verbatim text of any messages) of
your program.
Describe how you want the output to be different from what you are
getting.
If you have no idea at all of how to code up your situation, be sure
to at least describe the 2 things that you *do* know: input and
desired output.
Do not provide too much information
Do not just post your entire program for debugging. Most especially
do not post someone *else's* entire program.
Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
clpmisc is a text only newsgroup. If you have images or binaries
that explain your question, put them in a publically accessible
place (like a Web server) and provide a pointer to that location. If
you include code, cut and paste it directly in the message body.
Don't attach anything to the message. Don't post vcards or HTML.
Many people (and even some Usenet servers) will automatically filter
out such messages. Many people will not be able to easily read your
post. Plain text is something everyone can read.
Social faux pas to avoid
The first two below are symptoms of lots of FAQ asking here in clpmisc.
It happens so often that folks will assume that it is happening yet
again. If you have looked but not found, or found but didn't understand
the docs, say so in your article.
Asking a Frequently Asked Question
It should be understood that you may have missed the applicable FAQ
when you checked, which is not a big deal. But if the Frequently
Asked Question is worded similar to your question, folks will assume
that you did not look at all. Don't become indignant at pointers to
the FAQ, particularly if it solves your problem.
Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
If folks think you have not even tried the obvious step of reading
the docs applicable to your problem, they are likely to become
annoyed.
If you are flamed for not checking when you *did* check, then just
shrug it off (and take the answer that you got).
Asking for emailed answers
Emailed answers benefit one person. Posted answers benefit the
entire community. If folks can take the time to answer your
question, then you can take the time to go get the answer in the
same place where you asked the question.
It is OK to ask for a *copy* of the answer to be emailed, but many
will ignore such requests anyway. If you munge your address, you
should never expect (or ask) to get email in response to a Usenet
post.
Ask the question here, get the answer here (maybe).
Beware of saying "doesn't work"
This is a "red flag" phrase. If you find yourself writing that,
pause and see if you can't describe what is not working without
saying "doesn't work". That is, describe how it is not what you
want.
Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
A "stealth Cc" is when you both email and post a reply without
indicating *in the body* that you are doing so.
Be extra cautious when you get upset
Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
This is recommended in all Usenet newsgroups. Here in clpmisc, most
flaming sub-threads are not about any feature of Perl at all! They
are most often for what was seen as a breach of netiquette. If you
have lurked for a bit, then you will know what is expected and won't
make such posts in the first place.
But if you get upset, wait a while before writing your followup. I
recommend waiting at least 30 minutes.
Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
After you have written your followup, wait *another* 30 minutes
before committing yourself by posting it. You cannot take it back
once it has been said.
AUTHOR
Tad McClellan and many others on the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 02:23:33 +0000 (UTC)
From: Leo Franks <LeoFranks08042008@gmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Message-Id: <g7gan5$vvf$1@registered.motzarella.org>
--
LeoFranks08042008@gmail.com
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 1779
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