[30310] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1553 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Sun May 18 16:09:41 2008
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Sun, 18 May 2008 Volume: 11 Number: 1553
Today's topics:
Re: BEginer strawberry <RedGrittyBrick@SpamWeary.foo>
Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a sheinrich@my-deja.com
Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a sheinrich@my-deja.com
Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a <szrRE@szromanMO.comVE>
Re: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circular lists? <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Re: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circular lists? sheinrich@my-deja.com
Re: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circular lists? <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Re: Newsgroup Markup. Was Re: Perl DBI Module: SQL quer <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Order of operations (was: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circ <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Re: Order of operations (was: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle <szrRE@szromanMO.comVE>
Re: Strawberry <rahim.g.fakir@gmail.com>
Re: Strawberry <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Strawberry <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Re: Strawberry <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
testing <prich@earthlink.net>
Re: testing <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:16:05 +0100
From: RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@SpamWeary.foo>
Subject: Re: BEginer strawberry
Message-Id: <c_KdnRY3crBonK3VnZ2dnUVZ8vudnZ2d@bt.com>
sanozuke wrote:
> I wish to use the perlfaq in a few days one by one.
I've no idea what that means.
> Perl code should be done in a textpad
You can write and edit Perl code in any text editor. There are IDEs (see
perldoc -q ide) but I expect most people use a text editor.
> saved with .pl extension
This isn't necessary but it does have advantages. The main one is that
on Windows, you can associate the .pl extension with the perl.exe
program required to run the perl script.
> and be called out by the command line?
I'm unsure what you mean.
> In the OS i will have 2 things the file.pl and the command line?
I'm unsure what you mean.
On Windows, you should be able to execute script.pl by either clicking
on it's name in Windows explorer, by clicking on a desktop shortcut to
script.pl or by opening a command-prompt window and typing either
"script.pl" or "perl script.pl".
See perldoc perlrun.
--
RGB
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 06:06:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: sheinrich@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a list or array?
Message-Id: <6a330e58-f8a2-427d-b2b3-1a875f808913@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
On May 18, 9:29 am, "szr" <sz...@szromanMO.comVE> wrote:
> PerlFAQ Server wrote:
> > 4.41: How can I remove duplicate elements from a list or array?
> [...]
> > You can write this more briefly using a grep, which does the same
> > thing.
>
> > my %seen = ();
> > my @unique = grep { ! $seen{ $_ }++ } @array;
>
> How about this method, which eliminates the need to declare a seperate
> %seen hash?
>
> my @array = (1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 4, 5, 6, 5, 7);
> my @unique = grep { ! $::_{$_}++; } @array;
> print join ', ', @unique;
>
> [or]
>
> my @array = (1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 4, 5, 6, 5, 7);
> my @unique = grep { ! $::{seen}{$_}++; } @array;
> print join ', ', @unique;
>
> Output:
>
> 1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 5, 7
>
> --
> szr
What I don't quite understand here, is why perl chokes (using strict)
on
%perl
use strict;
use warnings;
my @array = (1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 4, 5, 6, 5, 7);
my @unique = grep { ! $seen{$_}++; } @array;
print join ', ', keys %main::seen;
__END__
Global symbol "%seen" requires explicit package name at - line 4.
Execution of - aborted due to compilation errors.
but not on
%perl
use strict;
use warnings;
my @array = (1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 4, 5, 6, 5, 7);
my @unique = grep { ! $::seen{$_}++; } @array;
print join ', ', keys %main::seen;
__END__
6, 4, 1, 3, 7, 2, 5
Both instances are referencing the undeclared variable %main::seen.
Why is the 2nd notation allowed?
As for the use of "$::_{$_}++" (or "$_{$_}++" for short) I understand
that the *_ typeglob is always predeclared and thus compiles.
Steffen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:33:06 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a list or array?
Message-Id: <ipn5g5-pad.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth sheinrich@my-deja.com:
>
> What I don't quite understand here, is why perl chokes (using strict)
> on
>
<code trimmed>
> %perl
> use strict;
> my @unique = grep { ! $seen{$_}++; } @array;
>
> but not on
>
> %perl
> use strict;
> my @unique = grep { ! $::seen{$_}++; } @array;
>
> Both instances are referencing the undeclared variable %main::seen.
> Why is the 2nd notation allowed?
Fully-qualified references are always allowed. %::seen is a fully-
qualified package variable, in the null package (which happens to also
be called 'main'). It's exactly equivalent to %main::seen.
Ben
--
You poor take courage, you rich take care:
The Earth was made a common treasury for everyone to share
All things in common, all people one.
'We come in peace'---the order came to cut them down. [ben@morrow.me.uk]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 07:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: sheinrich@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a list or array?
Message-Id: <1376fa46-ee6d-4d1f-9c4a-0248e8c49a83@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On May 18, 3:33 pm, Ben Morrow <b...@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
> Quoth sheinr...@my-deja.com:
>
> > Both instances are referencing the undeclared variable %main::seen.
> > Why is the 2nd notation allowed?
>
> Fully-qualified references are always allowed. %::seen is a fully-
> qualified package variable, in the null package (which happens to also
> be called 'main'). It's exactly equivalent to %main::seen.
>
> Ben
>
Oh! I never knew that.
Thank you Ben.
Steffen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:19:32 +0200
From: "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Subject: Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a list or array?
Message-Id: <g0paih.f8.1@news.isolution.nl>
szr schreef:
> How about this method, which eliminates the need to declare a seperate
> %seen hash?
>
> my @array = (1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 4, 5, 6, 5, 7);
> my @unique = grep { ! $::{seen}{$_}++; } @array;
> print join ', ', @unique;
>
> Output:
>
> 1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 5, 7
Bad practice. You are still building up a sep*a*rate hash, called
%::seen.
And if you would pick a name that was defined somewhere else with 'our',
you would be using the same variable space.
perl -Mstrict -Mwarnings -MData::Dumper -le'
my @array = qw( 1 2 3 4 6 4 4 6 5 7 );
my @unique = grep !$::seen{$_}++, @array;
print join ", ", @unique;
print Dumper(\%::seen);
our %seen; print Dumper(\%seen);
'
1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 5, 7
$VAR1 = {
'6' => 2,
'4' => 3,
'1' => 1,
'3' => 1,
'7' => 1,
'2' => 1,
'5' => 1
};
$VAR1 = {
'6' => 2,
'4' => 3,
'1' => 1,
'3' => 1,
'7' => 1,
'2' => 1,
'5' => 1
};
--
Affijn, Ruud
"Gewoon is een tijger."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:30:47 -0700
From: "szr" <szrRE@szromanMO.comVE>
Subject: Re: FAQ 4.41 How can I remove duplicate elements from a list or array?
Message-Id: <g0q0580tcc@news4.newsguy.com>
Dr.Ruud wrote:
> szr schreef:
>> How about this method, which eliminates the need to declare a
>> seperate %seen hash?
>>
>> my @array = (1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 4, 5, 6, 5, 7);
>> my @unique = grep { ! $::{seen}{$_}++; } @array;
>> print join ', ', @unique;
>>
>> Output:
>>
>> 1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 5, 7
>
> Bad practice. You are still building up a sep*a*rate hash, called
> %::seen.
> And if you would pick a name that was defined somewhere else with
> 'our', you would be using the same variable space.
>
> perl -Mstrict -Mwarnings -MData::Dumper -le'
> my @array = qw( 1 2 3 4 6 4 4 6 5 7 );
> my @unique = grep !$::seen{$_}++, @array;
> print join ", ", @unique;
> print Dumper(\%::seen);
> our %seen; print Dumper(\%seen);
Point taken, though my goal was to show how to do what was shown at the
end of the FAQ with one less line.
And how about?
my @array = (1, 2, 3, 6, 4, 4, 5, 6, 5, 7);
my @unique = grep { ! $::_{$_}++; } @array;
print join ', ', @unique;
--
szr
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:21:44 +0200
From: "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Subject: Re: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circular lists?
Message-Id: <g0paih.f8.2@news.isolution.nl>
sheinrich@my-deja.com schreef:
> the restriction seems particularly odd for a language that
> otherwise allows constructs like
> @array[$k, $l] = @array[$l, $k];
>
> Reading from the above, it probably wouldn't help to introduce some
> strategical brackets, or would it?
> $index = (++$index) % $asize;
What don't you understand about "Note that just as in C, Perl doesn't
define when the variable is incremented or decremented. You just know it
will be done sometime before or after the value is returned. This also
means that modifying a variable twice in the same statement will lead to
undefined behaviour."?
--
Affijn, Ruud
"Gewoon is een tijger."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 05:36:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: sheinrich@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circular lists?
Message-Id: <018fa81b-cc7d-40b1-8c61-84175e84057e@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>
On May 18, 1:21 pm, "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+n...@isolution.nl> wrote:
> sheinr...@my-deja.com schreef:
>
> > the restriction seems particularly odd for a language that
> > otherwise allows constructs like
> > @array[$k, $l] = @array[$l, $k];
>
> > Reading from the above, it probably wouldn't help to introduce some
> > strategical brackets, or would it?
> > $index = (++$index) % $asize;
>
> What don't you understand about "Note that just as in C, Perl doesn't
> define when the variable is incremented or decremented. You just know it
> will be done sometime before or after the value is returned. This also
> means that modifying a variable twice in the same statement will lead to
> undefined behaviour."?
>
> --
> Affijn, Ruud
>
> "Gewoon is een tijger."
You didn't read the thread, did you?
Above I wrote in answer to John:
> "You just know it will be done sometime before or after the value is
> returned."
>
> I've been reading that as 'sometime before' in case of a preincrement,
> 'after' for a postincrement.
From what the doc says it is quite understandable why the given
examples
$i = $i ++;
print ++ $i + $i ++;
should be avoided.
However, it is not so clear and at least can be subject of debate, if
the outcome of
$index = ++$index % $asize;
is also indeterminate.
"This also means that modifying a variable twice in the same statement
will lead to undefined behaviour."
This of course sounds prohibitive, easy enough. But does it hold true?
As I read it from Peter's contribution, some doubt about perl adopting
the intrinsic problems from the C legacy is quite reasonable.
Steffen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 17:15:08 +0200
From: "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Subject: Re: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circular lists?
Message-Id: <g0po7v.1ms.1@news.isolution.nl>
sheinrich@my-deja.com schreef:
> From what the doc says it is quite understandable why the given
> examples
> $i = $i ++;
> print ++ $i + $i ++;
> should be avoided.
> However, it is not so clear and at least can be subject of debate, if
> the outcome of
> $index = ++$index % $asize;
> is also indeterminate.
No, the issue is clear, so there is no use debating that:
"modifying a variable twice in the same statement will lead to undefined
behaviour".
Take care: "undefined behaviour" and "indeterminate" don't mean the
same.
The example
$i = $i ++;
looks very similar to
$index = ++$index % $asize;
so I can not fathom how that can confuse you.
All these examples don't matter when you have read and understood this:
"modifying a variable twice in the same statement will lead to undefined
behaviour".
This "undefined" includes that it can behave differently on different
platforms.
--
Affijn, Ruud
"Gewoon is een tijger."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 18:30:28 +0200
From: "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Subject: Re: Newsgroup Markup. Was Re: Perl DBI Module: SQL query where there is space in field name
Message-Id: <slrng30md8.g3g.hjp-usenet2@hrunkner.hjp.at>
On 2008-05-16 10:46, RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@SpamWeary.foo> wrote:
> Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>> On 2008-05-13 13:49, RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@SpamWeary.foo> wrote:
>>> "l) I'd prefer plain text markup of the sort used by GrutaTxt or
>>> ASCIIDOC but simplified. That way I could embed tables that work well
>>> in plain-text newsreaders but would also look pretty in any
>>> newsreader that supported that format." - RGB
>>>
>>> "That would be nice, but wouldn't you have the same battle on your hands
>>> that those pushing html currently do?" - szr
>> [...]
>>> This posting is written in a form compatible with Grutatxt. In theory a
>>> newreader could render it with the headings in various fonts and sizes,
>>> with the bullet lists shown with proper bullet characters and with the
>>> tables displayed in some more pleasing form..
>>
>> If it recognizes the page as Grutatxt. How would it do that?
>
> I don't know, maybe using a header 'Content-type = text/structured'?
That would probably cause a problem with many newsreaders: They don't
know what text/structured is (that's a very bad name, btw - far too
unspecific) and how it should be displayed. Some may display it as
text/plain, but others will complain or resort to external filters.
> Don't forget many (most?) newsreaders already recognise *asterisks*
> /obliques/ and _underscores_ without requiring any special indicators.
> Ditto for lines starting with ">".
Most newsreaders take great care to render these in a way which doesn't
change the content (i.e., they may render anything between the asterisks
in bold, but they don't remove the asterisks). This is because they
cannot know that these characters are intended as markup - especially in
programming language newsgroups "strange characters" often carry
meaning. Still, even though they are quite conservative, and there is
only a very limited number of markup elements, it does happen that they
render something in a misleading manner.
> Is there any *technical* reason they shouldn't look out for other
> markup too?
Every additional markup element which is used only by convention and not
according to some specified format increases the risk that the reader
won't see what the author intended.
I have nothing against grutatext, asciidoc, etc. if they are properly
labeled. But if newsreaders A treats text/plain as grutatext and
newsreader B treats it as asciidoc, then I fear that the result won't be
pretty.
> It's not like I have some well thought out proposal here, this is just
> thinking out aloud :-)
Ditto.
hp
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 19:02:51 +0200
From: "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Subject: Order of operations (was: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circular lists?)
Message-Id: <slrng30o9r.g3g.hjp-usenet2@hrunkner.hjp.at>
On 2008-05-18 15:15, Dr.Ruud <rvtol+news@isolution.nl> wrote:
> sheinrich@my-deja.com schreef:
>
>> From what the doc says it is quite understandable why the given
>> examples
>> $i = $i ++;
>> print ++ $i + $i ++;
>> should be avoided.
>> However, it is not so clear and at least can be subject of debate, if
>> the outcome of
>> $index = ++$index % $asize;
>> is also indeterminate.
>
> No, the issue is clear, so there is no use debating that:
> "modifying a variable twice in the same statement will lead to undefined
> behaviour".
That sentence is very clear when taken out of context. Unfortunately, it
is much less clear in the context of perlop. Firstly, it is in the
section "Auto-increment and Auto-decrement", not in the section
"Assignment Operators". So does it only apply to ++ and -- or is
($i = 1) + ($i = 2)
also undefined? (it is in C)
Also what is "You just know it will be done sometime before or after the
value is returned." supposed to mean? Sometime between program start and
program end? Or maybe something more specific like sometime between
start and end of the current statement. And what is the current
statement anyway, if that can contain code blocks? If you allow
out-of-order execution in a programming language you need to be very
precise about the rules. Perlop is not precise. As a specification, it
is unusable (in this respect).
> Take care: "undefined behaviour" and "indeterminate" don't mean the
> same.
>
> The example
> $i = $i ++;
> looks very similar to
> $index = ++$index % $asize;
> so I can not fathom how that can confuse you.
He already wrote (twice!) that he understood "sometime before or after"
as "sometime before for the pre operators and sometime after for the
post operators". Given this misunderstanding it quite clear why he
believed that the second is well-defined but the first is not:
In the second case, the subexpression (++$index) assigns to index. But
that assignment occurs "sometime before" the result of the subextression
is returned. Since that value is needed to compute the value of
((++$index) % $asize) there is a clear and defined order of the two
assignments and the result is well-defined.
In the first case, the assignment of ($i ++) happens "sometime after"
the value is returned (this is stupid, of course and might have given a
hint that this interpretation was not the intended one). And of course
the assignment of the value of the subexpression to $i also happens
after that value has been determined. So the order of the two
assignments is undefined.
hp
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:06:28 -0700
From: "szr" <szrRE@szromanMO.comVE>
Subject: Re: Order of operations (was: FAQ 4.47 How do I handle circular lists?)
Message-Id: <g0q2840vho@news4.newsguy.com>
Peter J. Holzer wrote:
> On 2008-05-18 15:15, Dr.Ruud <rvtol+news@isolution.nl> wrote:
>> sheinrich@my-deja.com schreef:
[...]
> That sentence is very clear when taken out of context. Unfortunately,
> it is much less clear in the context of perlop. Firstly, it is in the
> section "Auto-increment and Auto-decrement", not in the section
> "Assignment Operators". So does it only apply to ++ and -- or is
>
> ($i = 1) + ($i = 2)
>
> also undefined? (it is in C)
This seems quite defined to me; assignments occur first, going left to
right, so $i becomes 2 (ok, it becomes 1 and then immediately becomes
2), and then you add (+), resulting in 2 + 2, which of course is 4. This
seems to hold true across the board:
$ perl5.10.0 -Mstrict -we 'my $i=5; print(($i = 1) + ($i = 2), "\n")'
4
$ perl5.8.8 -Mstrict -we 'my $i=5; print(($i = 1) + ($i = 2), "\n")'
4
$ perl5.8.2 -Mstrict -we 'my $i=5; print(($i = 1) + ($i = 2), "\n")'
4
$ perl5.8.0 -Mstrict -we 'my $i=5; print(($i = 1) + ($i = 2), "\n")'
4
$ perl5.6.1 -Mstrict -we 'my $i=5; print(($i = 1) + ($i = 2), "\n")'
4
There seems to be no reason that this would be undefined.
--
szr
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: sanozuke <rahim.g.fakir@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strawberry
Message-Id: <3327bfa3-cf49-4e7e-8a55-cc0c81158ce4@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
Do I put it(#!/usr/bin/perl ) on the strawberry scripts or is a
diferent shebang line?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:03:10 GMT
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strawberry
Message-Id: <brk034pf74t5e2bvpalsdgfkfv3c4e5t5n@4ax.com>
sanozuke <rahim.g.fakir@gmail.com> wrote:
>Do I put it(#!/usr/bin/perl ) on the strawberry scripts or is a
>diferent shebang line?
If your Perl interpreter resides in /usr/bin/perl, then that is the
correct line. If it resides in a different place then use the path to
that place.
jue
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 18:26:10 +0200
From: "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Subject: Re: Strawberry
Message-Id: <g0psnf.1ms.1@news.isolution.nl>
Jürgen Exner schreef:
> sanozuke:
>> Do I put it(#!/usr/bin/perl ) on the strawberry scripts or is a
>> diferent shebang line?
>
> If your Perl interpreter resides in /usr/bin/perl, then that is the
> correct line. If it resides in a different place then use the path to
> that place.
On Windows, that doesn't necessarily work that way. For example:
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/docs/ActivePerl/5.10/faq/Windows/ActivePerl-Winfaq4.html#What_s_the_equivalent_of_the_she
--
Affijn, Ruud
"Gewoon is een tijger."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:46:55 GMT
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strawberry
Message-Id: <hcn034pu0jcptds0e8kmf2eagecpri41dq@4ax.com>
"Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+news@isolution.nl> wrote:
>Jürgen Exner schreef:
>> sanozuke:
>
>>> Do I put it(#!/usr/bin/perl ) on the strawberry scripts or is a
>>> diferent shebang line?
>>
>> If your Perl interpreter resides in /usr/bin/perl, then that is the
>> correct line. If it resides in a different place then use the path to
>> that place.
>
>On Windows, that doesn't necessarily work that way.
Well, big surprise there. Of course Windows doesn't use the shebang line
in the first place but relies on bindings of the file extension instead
to achive the same goal.
jue
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:35:09 -0700
From: Paul Richardson <prich@earthlink.net>
Subject: testing
Message-Id: <1211139151_1511@news.usenet.com>
1 2 3 4
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 17:51:22 GMT
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: testing
Message-Id: <a6r03496konnoaqkb9qf88vp3o29qa532e@4ax.com>
Paul Richardson <prich@earthlink.net> wrote:
>1 2 3 4
Your Newsreader or -server must be badly misconfigured because your
posting went to CLPM instead of to one of the many test NGs.
jue
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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#To request back copies (available for a week or so), send your request
#to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu with the command "send perl-users x.y",
#where x is the volume number and y is the issue number.
#For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
#perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
#sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
#answer them even if I did know the answer.
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 1553
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