[30183] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1426 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Sun Apr 6 18:09:38 2008
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Sun, 6 Apr 2008 Volume: 11 Number: 1426
Today's topics:
Re: Graph, Math and Stats Online Software <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <john@castleamber.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <john@castleamber.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <john@castleamber.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <john@castleamber.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <john@castleamber.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <someone@example.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <john@castleamber.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <get@bentsys.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 (aka ? the Platypus)
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <get@bentsys.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 (aka ? the Platypus)
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 (aka ? the Platypus)
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <get@bentsys.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <get@bentsys.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <get@bentsys.com>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 <devnull4711@web.de>
Re: perl should be improved and perl6 (aka ? the Platypus)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:32:31 GMT
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Graph, Math and Stats Online Software
Message-Id: <fd9iv3h3h9cltu6q3k0q6hrf5rh0p9akt5@4ax.com>
Dexter <yousaf.asad@gmail.com> wrote:
> have designed and developed Graphing tools and Math/Stats online
>software that is available on internet.
When are you adding them to CPAN?
jue
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2008 18:10:03 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <Xns9A7885F1ECFD3castleamber@130.133.1.4>
"Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com> wrote:
> John Bokma wrote:
>> "V.Ronans" <v_r@spamless.and.happy> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Yes, when _programming_, not with geenral petty conversations, such
>>> responses as "it's Perl not perl or PERL" serve NO PURPOSE.
>>
>> Yes they do:
>>
>> A perl programmer is not the same as a Perl programmer.
>> A perl hacker is not the same as a Perl hacker.
>
> There is no real difference.
Yes there is. I can be hired as a Perl programmer, but if you are
looking for a perl programmer, I have to turn your project down.
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=PERL
>
> The spelling "Perl" is preferred over the older "PERL" (even though
> some explain the language's name as originating in the acronym for
> "Practical Extraction and Report Language"). The program that
> interprets/compiles Perl code is called "perl", typically
> "/usr/local/bin/perl" or "/usr/bin/perl".
Who do you trust more? People who make a living working with Perl on a
daily basis, who have contributed to the language in one way or another,
or some dictionary entry?
>> I also use it as a quick way to see if someone knows what he/she is
>> talking about. Someone who claims to be a PERL programmer tells me
>> that I probably never want to maintain his/her code.
>
> That's a very poor measuring stick.
Based on my experience of quite some years: *anyone* I have seen
constantly refering to Perl as PERL had either never programmed a single
line in Perl, or was an absolute newbie.
> Seems also hypocritical, considering
> some of the more well known people in this group are known for doing
> thing differently (Abigail for her interesting alternate forms of
> quoting in replies,
Yes, used to annoy me as well. But the alternate quoting has nothing to
do with Perl or perl (heh, or a lot ;-) ), and the value of the content
of *his* [1] posts severely outweights the quoting.
> Uri for his inability to use the shift key, and so
> forth),
Yeah, those people who have English as their second lenguage :-D.
> to judge some random bloke who may also choose to be different.
If his piece was well written, nobody would have made a point of his
misspelling of Perl.
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2008 18:13:24 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <Xns9A7886840B84castleamber@130.133.1.4>
Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
You might want to fix TB to post only in plain text instead of attaching a
HTML version as well. (Moreover, you might want to use a fixed font while
viewing Usenet postings (unless you already do), it makes some of the code
snippets a bit easier on the eye and doesn't break ASCII art).
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2008 18:29:38 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <Xns9A788943F5602castleamber@130.133.1.4>
Ben Bullock <benkasminbullock@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 03:32:19 +0000, John Bokma wrote:
>
>> A perl programmer is not the same as a Perl programmer. A perl hacker
>> is not the same as a Perl hacker.
>
> This presents us with a serious problem. When we speak,
this is Usenet. If I read your posting aloud here on the street, most
people are not able to understand it. Should we now start to post in
Spanish?
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2008 19:00:09 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <Xns9A788E71087F6castleamber@130.133.1.4>
Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
> John Bokma wrote:
>> Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
>>
>> You might want to fix TB to post only in plain text instead of
>> attaching a HTML version as well.
> Thanks but no thanks. There is nothing to "fix". This is by design.
You can turn it off in TB. If you keep posting with HTML attachements,
which have no place on Usenet, you will notice that soon few people if at
all will reply to your posts.
[..]
> I've given up even a casual interest in ASCII art I'd say back in the
> 70's son...
It shows.
Anyway, ASCII art is now and then used in technical groups to illustrate
something.
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2008 19:02:19 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <Xns9A788ECE997D5castleamber@130.133.1.4>
Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
> And you never had any credebility (sic) to start with!
^^^
[sic]
;-)
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:28:05 GMT
From: "John W. Krahn" <someone@example.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <9v9Kj.18469$9X3.16328@edtnps82>
Gordon Etly wrote:
> A. Sinan Unur wrote:
>> "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com> wrote in
>> news:65r17iF2h5fbhU1@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> John Bokma wrote:
>> ...
>>>> Moreover, Perl is the programming language, and perl is the
>>>> executable, hence there is a good reason to be case sensitive.
>>>> Hence, perl [...] is poorly typed seems to refer to the
>>>> executable, hence Dr. Ruud's question.
>>> As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around
>>> a particular programming language, no one pays this kind of
>>> attention of people like your self seem to.
>> Have you tried posting a question about a non-existence language
>> called C/C++ in comp.lang.c?
>
> Yes I have. They are related languages. C++ is based on C. Most people
> seem to understand that, while also understanding what sets them apart.
>
>> Think of the distinction between Perl and perl a clue-meter.
>
> But that is just wrong. If the man/perldoc page for "perl" reads like,
>
>
> $ perldoc perl | head -n 10
> PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation PERL(1)
> ^^^^
Are you saying that the roff(7) formatting of a header implies something?
John
--
Perl isn't a toolbox, but a small machine shop where you
can special-order certain sorts of tools at low cost and
in short order. -- Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2008 20:08:46 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <Xns9A789A12C3511castleamber@130.133.1.4>
Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
> I've been doing so for years son
I hate to break the news, you being the product of severe inbreeding
doesn't make me your son.
--
John
http://johnbokma.com/perl/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:53:57 -0700
From: "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <65srj6F2g3o5lU1@mid.individual.net>
John Bokma wrote:
> "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com> wrote:
>
>> John Bokma wrote:
>>> "V.Ronans" <v_r@spamless.and.happy> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, when _programming_, not with geenral petty conversations, such
>>>> responses as "it's Perl not perl or PERL" serve NO PURPOSE.
>>>
>>> Yes they do:
>>>
>>> A perl programmer is not the same as a Perl programmer.
>>> A perl hacker is not the same as a Perl hacker.
>>
>> There is no real difference.
>
> Yes there is. I can be hired as a Perl programmer, but if you are
> looking for a perl programmer, I have to turn your project down.
Based on 'man perl' or 'perdoc perl', you would be wrong to pass
rejection on these grounds.
$ perldoc perl | head -n 6
PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation PERL(1)
NAME
perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language
So according to Perl's own documentation, PERL or perl, Perl, "Practical
Extraction and Report Language" are all perfectly reasonable.
>> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=PERL
>>
>> The spelling "Perl" is preferred over the older "PERL" (even
>> though some explain the language's name as originating in the
>> acronym for "Practical Extraction and Report Language"). The
>> program that interprets/compiles Perl code is called "perl",
>> typically "/usr/local/bin/perl" or "/usr/bin/perl".
>
> Who do you trust more? People who make a living working with Perl on a
> daily basis, who have contributed to the language in one way or
> another, or some dictionary entry?
I trust perldoc and the man pages. Or do they suddenly not matter
anymore?
Do 'man perl' or 'perldoc perl' yourself.
>>> I also use it as a quick way to see if someone knows what he/she is
>>> talking about. Someone who claims to be a PERL programmer tells me
>>> that I probably never want to maintain his/her code.
>>
>> That's a very poor measuring stick.
>
> Based on my experience of quite some years: *anyone* I have seen
> constantly refering to Perl as PERL had either never programmed a
> single line in Perl, or was an absolute newbie.
Complete nonsense. Anyone who has read Perl's own documentation could
say PERL or perl or "Practical Extraction and Report Language" and be
perfectly legitimate programmers.
>> Seems also hypocritical, considering
>> some of the more well known people in this group are known for doing
>> thing differently (Abigail for her interesting alternate forms of
>> quoting in replies,
>
> Yes, used to annoy me as well. But the alternate quoting has nothing
> to do with Perl or perl (heh, or a lot ;-) ), and the value of the
> content of *his* [1] posts severely outweights the quoting.
Well I would say the way someone write the word "perl" is just as
harmless, yet some of you insist on being so stubborn, despite how
Perl's own docs prove you wrong.
>> Uri for his inability to use the shift key, and so
>> forth),
>
> Yeah, those people who have English as their second lenguage :-D.
English isn't the only language to capitalize at the beginning of a
sentence, proper nouns, etc.
>> to judge some random bloke who may also choose to be different.
>
> If his piece was well written, nobody would have made a point of his
> misspelling of Perl.
Why make such a point at all? As far as I'm concerned, considering how
'man perl'/'perldoc perl' put it, there is NO reason to make such a
point in the first place, or do Perl's own docs not matter when it's
inconvenient?
--
G.Etly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:55:52 GMT
From: "David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <dformosa@usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <slrnfvif2h.b50.dformosa@localhost.localdomain>
On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 09:25:02 -0700, Gordon Etly <get@bentsys.com> wrote:
> David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
[...]
>> Because reading the FAQ, paying attention to detail and understanding
>> what people tell them are aspects of knowing how to program in Perl.
>
> No, you can judge someone purely on grounds like that.
And we don't. We also judge people on how they respond to being
corrected. Some accept it in good grace, others don't. Normally the
ones that don't are realy hard to convenice on other issues
particularly advice on good programing sytle and techniques that
should be avoided.
[...]
>> You will find that people don't care about the spelling of random
>> words, its only when people start talking about Perl specific words
>> does it start to mattor.
>
> Yes, but "PERL" and "Practical Extraction and Report Language" come fro
> mthe man/perldoc page for "perl", how can one get more official then
> something's own man page?
The all cap sequence is a side effect of man.
> Are you saying the FAQ for this group, a user
> contributed document, as valvuable as it may be, carries more weight
> then Perl's own man page?
man perlfaq
They carry the same waight as perl's own man page because perl's man
page incorperates the FAQ for this group.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:59:01 -0700
From: "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <65srsmF2h5jf6U1@mid.individual.net>
John Bokma wrote:
> Johann Kappacher <Johann.Kappacher@chello.at> wrote:
>
>>> Ok, Uri is right in saying that the FAQ explains it well.
>>> But the FAQ also states that you can follow the guideline ... or
>>> not.
>>>
>>> Uri is writing "perl actually has stronger typing than many langs"
>>> and (in a followup) "perl and other langs".
>
>
> Uri avoids the shift key for one reason or another. Regs here don't
> mistake Uri for a newbie, and hence read over this.
But he's telling everyone else to use "Perl" and instead writes
"perl"... is there nothing wrong with that picture? Especially if Perl's
own docs point to the contrary?
> The problem with people who use PERL, or perl if they mean Perl, and
> vice versa, often are newbies.
Or they actually read Perl's documentation. Or again, does perldoc/man
suddenly not matter because it's inconvenient?
--
G.Etly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 21:00:16 GMT
From: "David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <dformosa@usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <slrnfvifaq.b50.dformosa@localhost.localdomain>
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:03:52 -0700, Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
[...]
> John Bokma wrote:
>> Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
[...]
>>> I've given up even a casual interest in ASCII art I'd say back in the
>>> 70's son...
>> It shows.
> Indeed! It shows that I have a lot more taste than to admire ASCII
> "art". That's for geeks who have never quite graduated from DOS
And the IETF.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 21:02:09 GMT
From: "David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <dformosa@usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <slrnfvifea.b50.dformosa@localhost.localdomain>
On 6 Apr 2008 18:10:03 GMT, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> wrote:
[...]
> Yes, used to annoy me as well. But the alternate quoting has nothing to
> do with Perl or perl (heh, or a lot ;-) ), and the value of the content
> of *his* [1] posts severely outweights the quoting.
Foot note not found.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:04:08 -0700
From: "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <65ss69F2hccjjU1@mid.individual.net>
John Bokma wrote:
> Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
>
>> Attachment decoded: text-html-3
>
> Oops, you just lost any credebility :-D
While on UseNet you generally do not post HTML, since you have pointed
out there is plain-text version, should not a sensible news reader use
only that part if all you want is plain-text, just as any sensible mail
reader does? This is how mine behaves. Surely what ever reader you have
could do the same?
With that said, it would be nice to keep everything in plain-text only,
though in this day and age, I don't think it should be so surprising to
see messages in multiple formats?
--
G.Etly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:11:12 -0700
From: "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <65ssjhF2h3hl4U1@mid.individual.net>
John W. Krahn wrote:
> Gordon Etly wrote:
>> A. Sinan Unur wrote:
>>> "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com> wrote in
>>> news:65r17iF2h5fbhU1@mid.individual.net:
>>>
>>>> John Bokma wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>> Moreover, Perl is the programming language, and perl is the
>>>>> executable, hence there is a good reason to be case sensitive.
>>>>> Hence, perl [...] is poorly typed seems to refer to the
>>>>> executable, hence Dr. Ruud's question.
>>>> As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around
>>>> a particular programming language, no one pays this kind of
>>>> attention of people like your self seem to.
>>> Have you tried posting a question about a non-existence language
>>> called C/C++ in comp.lang.c?
>>
>> Yes I have. They are related languages. C++ is based on C. Most
>> people seem to understand that, while also understanding what sets
>> them apart.
>>> Think of the distinction between Perl and perl a clue-meter.
>>
>> But that is just wrong. If the man/perldoc page for "perl" reads
>> like, $ perldoc perl | head -n 10
>> PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation PERL(1)
>> ^^^^
>
> Are you saying that the roff(7) formatting of a header implies
> something?
Actually, yes. Because any perldoc or man I've tested on 8 different
types of platforms all display it the same way and this is how people
would read it. Even man2html shows "PERL (1)" at the top.
Although, it's not so much the header formatting (maybe I should not of
underscored on the header), it's the fact that (which you conveniently
snipped: ),
$ perldoc perl | head -n 10
PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation PERL(1)
NAME
perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language
^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Practical Extraction and Report Language" implies an acronym in some
way or another, and so you cannot really blame someone for using "perl"
or "PERL" as both forms could be used to denote an acronym. Since this
is in the main Documentation for Perl, then it is fair game, unless you
no longer consider Perl's own documentation to be of value.
--
G.Etly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:15:52 -0700
From: "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <65sss9F2g7a1aU1@mid.individual.net>
John Bokma wrote:
> "Gordon Etly" <get@bentsys.com> wrote:
>
>> If someone is a good programmer with the Perl language, does
>> it really make a difference how they spell it as long as they know
>> what they are doing?
>
> IMO a good Perl programmer knows the difference between Perl and perl,
> and knows when to use which one.
There you go again, completely ignoring what 'man perl' and 'perldoc
perl' say:
I would think a good programmer would also have read Perl's own
documentation, which validates the usage of Perl as an acronym:
$ perldoc perl | head -n 10
PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation PERL(1)
NAME
perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language
^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Even http://perldoc.perl.org/perl.html says:
"perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language"
--
G.Etly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 23:23:20 +0200
From: Frank Seitz <devnull4711@web.de>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <65staaF2i16etU7@mid.individual.net>
Gordon Etly wrote:
>
> There you go again, completely ignoring what 'man perl' and 'perldoc
> perl' say:
>
> I would think a good programmer would also have read Perl's own
> documentation, which validates the usage of Perl as an acronym:
>
> $ perldoc perl | head -n 10
> PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation PERL(1)
>
>
> NAME
> perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language
> ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Even http://perldoc.perl.org/perl.html says:
> "perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language"
Another (better?) citation: http://tinyurl.com/o6ll4
Frank
--
Dipl.-Inform. Frank Seitz; http://www.fseitz.de/
Anwendungen für Ihr Internet und Intranet
Tel: 04103/180301; Fax: -02; Industriestr. 31, 22880 Wedel
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 22:07:07 GMT
From: "David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <dformosa@usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: perl should be improved and perl6
Message-Id: <slrnfvij85.b50.dformosa@localhost.localdomain>
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:12:56 -0700, Andrew DeFaria <Andrew@DeFaria.com> wrote:
[...]
> David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
>>
[...]
>>> Indeed! It shows that I have a lot more taste than to admire ASCII
>>> "art". That's for geeks who have never quite graduated from DOS
>> And the IETF.
> Or was never really a part of, as the case probably is... In any case,
> ASCII "art", as the kind referred to here, is decidedly inferior to all
> other arts. Besides I have no requirement to admire or respect it.
So you have no respect for RFC793?
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 1426
***************************************
