[29337] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 581 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Jun 26 14:19:49 2007
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:19:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 26 Jun 2007 Volume: 11 Number: 581
Today's topics:
new CPAN modules on Tue Jun 26 2007 (Randal Schwartz)
Re: Passing function references in the constructor koszalekopalek@interia.pl
Re: Passing function references in the constructor <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: Perl Best Practices - Code Formatting. <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Re: Perl <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Perl <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid>
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited sla29970@gmail.com
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited <martin@see.sig.for.address>
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid>
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 04:42:12 GMT
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal Schwartz)
Subject: new CPAN modules on Tue Jun 26 2007
Message-Id: <JK87qC.oCC@zorch.sf-bay.org>
The following modules have recently been added to or updated in the
Comprehensive Perl Archive Network (CPAN). You can install them using the
instructions in the 'perlmodinstall' page included with your Perl
distribution.
Acme-Siteswap-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~lukec/Acme-Siteswap-0.01/
Provide information about Juggling Siteswap patterns
----
App-Relate-0.03
http://search.cpan.org/~doom/App-Relate-0.03/
backend for "relate" script (filtered locate)
----
Bio-DOOP-DOOP-0.26
http://search.cpan.org/~tibi/Bio-DOOP-DOOP-0.26/
DOOP API main module
----
Bundle-Search-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~ski/Bundle-Search-0.01/
installs Search modules, related modules, and dependencies
----
Bundle-Search-0.02
http://search.cpan.org/~ski/Bundle-Search-0.02/
installs Search modules, related modules, and dependencies
----
CGI-Application-Plugin-ErrorPage-1.00
http://search.cpan.org/~markstos/CGI-Application-Plugin-ErrorPage-1.00/
A sipmle error page plugin for CGI::Application
----
CMS-MediaWiki-0.8012
http://search.cpan.org/~retoh/CMS-MediaWiki-0.8012/
Perl extension for creating, reading and updating MediaWiki pages
----
Config-Loader-1.10
http://search.cpan.org/~drtech/Config-Loader-1.10/
load a configuration directory tree containing YAML, JSON, XML, Perl, INI or Config::General files
----
Config-Loader-1.11
http://search.cpan.org/~drtech/Config-Loader-1.11/
load a configuration directory tree containing YAML, JSON, XML, Perl, INI or Config::General files
----
Convert-Binary-C-0.68
http://search.cpan.org/~mhx/Convert-Binary-C-0.68/
Binary Data Conversion using C Types
----
DBD-Multiplex-2.03
http://search.cpan.org/~tkishel/DBD-Multiplex-2.03/
A multiplexing driver for the DBI.
----
DBD-Multiplex-2.04
http://search.cpan.org/~tkishel/DBD-Multiplex-2.04/
A multiplexing driver for the DBI.
----
DBI-1.58
http://search.cpan.org/~timb/DBI-1.58/
Database independent interface for Perl
----
DashProfiler-1.04
http://search.cpan.org/~timb/DashProfiler-1.04/
collect call count and timing data aggregated by context
----
Egg-Release-2.14
http://search.cpan.org/~lushe/Egg-Release-2.14/
Version of Egg WEB Application Framework.
----
Egg-Release-2.15
http://search.cpan.org/~lushe/Egg-Release-2.15/
Version of Egg WEB Application Framework.
----
Finance-Bank-LaPoste-3.00
http://search.cpan.org/~pixel/Finance-Bank-LaPoste-3.00/
Check your "La Poste" accounts from Perl
----
Finance-QuoteHist-1.11
http://search.cpan.org/~msisk/Finance-QuoteHist-1.11/
Perl module for fetching historical stock quotes.
----
Geo-Google-0.05
http://search.cpan.org/~allenday/Geo-Google-0.05/
Perform geographical queries using Google Maps
----
Google-Checkout-1.0.7
http://search.cpan.org/~dzhuo/Google-Checkout-1.0.7/
----
HTML-Template-Filter-URIdecode-1.00
http://search.cpan.org/~markstos/HTML-Template-Filter-URIdecode-1.00/
Allow tmpl_ tags to be URL-encoded.
----
HTML-WebDAO-0.80
http://search.cpan.org/~zag/HTML-WebDAO-0.80/
Perl extension for create complex web application
----
HTTP-Server-Brick-0.0.8
http://search.cpan.org/~aufflick/HTTP-Server-Brick-0.0.8/
Simple pure perl http server for prototyping "in the style of" Ruby's WEBrick
----
Handel-1.00001
http://search.cpan.org/~claco/Handel-1.00001/
A cart/order/checkout framework with AxKit/TT/Catalyst support
----
IWL-0.46
http://search.cpan.org/~viktork/IWL-0.46/
A widget library for the web
----
JQuery-1.06
http://search.cpan.org/~peterg/JQuery-1.06/
Interface to Jquery, a language based on Javascript
----
Mobile-Messaging-ParlayX-0.0.3
http://search.cpan.org/~tchatzi/Mobile-Messaging-ParlayX-0.0.3/
Interface to ParlayX OSA.
----
Mozilla-Mechanize-GUITester-0.12
http://search.cpan.org/~bosu/Mozilla-Mechanize-GUITester-0.12/
enhances Mozilla::Mechanize with GUI testing.
----
MyLibrary-3.0.3
http://search.cpan.org/~emorgan/MyLibrary-3.0.3/
a database-driven website application for libraries
----
POE-Component-MessageQueue-0.1.4
http://search.cpan.org/~dsnopek/POE-Component-MessageQueue-0.1.4/
A POE message queue that uses STOMP for the communication protocol
----
SQLite-Work-0.1001
http://search.cpan.org/~rubykat/SQLite-Work-0.1001/
report on and update an SQLite database.
----
Sort-Key-1.30_01
http://search.cpan.org/~salva/Sort-Key-1.30_01/
the fastest way to sort anything in Perl
----
Sort-Key-Merger-0.10_01
http://search.cpan.org/~salva/Sort-Key-Merger-0.10_01/
Perl extension for merging sorted things
----
Sort-Key-Merger-0.10_02
http://search.cpan.org/~salva/Sort-Key-Merger-0.10_02/
Perl extension for merging sorted things
----
Test-Sysconfig-0.01
http://search.cpan.org/~iank/Test-Sysconfig-0.01/
System configuration related unit tests
----
Test-Trap-v0.0.23
http://search.cpan.org/~ebhanssen/Test-Trap-v0.0.23/
Trap exit codes, exceptions, output, etc.
----
WWW-Myspace-0.65
http://search.cpan.org/~grantg/WWW-Myspace-0.65/
Access MySpace.com profile information from Perl
----
Win32-0.30
http://search.cpan.org/~jdb/Win32-0.30/
Interfaces to some Win32 API Functions
----
XML-Writer-0.603
http://search.cpan.org/~josephw/XML-Writer-0.603/
Perl extension for writing XML documents.
----
quikwiki-1.6
http://search.cpan.org/~rkies/quikwiki-1.6/
If you're an author of one of these modules, please submit a detailed
announcement to comp.lang.perl.announce, and we'll pass it along.
This message was generated by a Perl program described in my Linux
Magazine column, which can be found on-line (along with more than
200 other freely available past column articles) at
http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col82.html
print "Just another Perl hacker," # the original
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:51:47 -0700
From: koszalekopalek@interia.pl
Subject: Re: Passing function references in the constructor
Message-Id: <1182837107.261662.292590@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 25, 12:46 am, Michele Dondi <bik.m...@tiscalinet.it> wrote:
(...)
> But you probably meant just
>
> fun => \&mypack::test1
Thanks to everybody that answered.
Now I understand better what's going on.
I think replacing
fun => sub { mypack::test1 (@_) }
with
fun => \&mypack::test1
is what I was looking for. (I tried that with
the arrow syntax
fun \&mypack->test1
but that gave me the following error:
Backslash found where operator expected at a.pl line 46, near "fun \"
I always (well, almost) use strict - the example I
posted was a chopped down version of what I was
trying to achieve.
> After much thinking... I suspect smell of XY problem here. See e.g.
> <http://perlmonks.org/?node=XY+problem>.
Well, that may be true - I think I have some problems
figuring out what should be enclosed in the class and
what should not.
Thanks again,
K.O.
>
> Michele
> --
> {$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
> (($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
> .'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
> 256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 10:29:10 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: Passing function references in the constructor
Message-Id: <tej183hjidb9okin5kdtj6u2als46qj7rb@4ax.com>
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:51:47 -0700, koszalekopalek@interia.pl wrote:
>I think replacing
> fun => sub { mypack::test1 (@_) }
>with
> fun => \&mypack::test1
In fact with that bacslash in front, &mypack::test1 is fundamentally
nothing but a name, which means you're taking a reference to the sub
it refers to.
>is what I was looking for. (I tried that with
>the arrow syntax
> fun \&mypack->test1
>but that gave me the following error:
> Backslash found where operator expected at a.pl line 46, near "fun \"
Missing C< => >?
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jun 2007 11:49:14 -0400
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: Perl Best Practices - Code Formatting.
Message-Id: <87lke6iumd.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "M" == Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it> writes:
M> A simple cellular sample would suffice. And now that you make
M> me think of it wine is supposed to *become* (as opposed to
M> *symbolize* - at least for the Catholic Church, hey I'm Italian
M> and I know these things) his blood during the consacration. So
M> the question should be easy to settle down. I wonder why nobody
M> has thought of this before...
The bread and wine become *in essence* His body and blood, but they
remain *in accident* bread and wine -- in other words, it still looks
like bread and wine, and to all tests appears still to be bread and
wine, but it *really*, on a spiritual level, is Christ's body and
blood. I suspect that even according to the doctrine of
transubstantiation such things as DNA are accidents rather than
essence; it wasn't devised by 21st century scientists, after all.
(As for myself, I'm Episcopalian, where the doctrine is, more or less,
"Transubstantiation? Consubstantiation? Heck, we don't know, we just
do it because He said so, and we think that getting together to
worship is a good thing.")
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 05:58:22 GMT
From: "Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Perl
Message-Id: <2W1gi.1686$%w5.1128@trndny04>
Brandon wrote:
> Check it out: www.......
Check WHAT out?
jue
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 10:41:17 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: Perl
Message-Id: <v8k1831fn6s1j62nh01qggcltgukhukg9t@4ax.com>
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 05:58:22 GMT, "Jürgen Exner"
<jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Check it out: www.......
>
>Check WHAT out?
SPAM (you're replying to)?
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jun 2007 18:46:25 -0700
From: Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid>
Subject: Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
Message-Id: <7xbqf3lc7i.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address> writes:
> >> pretend the leap seconds never happened, just as Java does.
> > Which leaves you about 30 seconds out by now - smelly.
> Easy solution: always read Zulu time directly from a recognized
> real-time clock
That's no good, it doesn't let you accurately compute the difference
between timestamps. Nixon resigned the US presidency at noon EDT
(1800 UTC, I think) on August 9, 1974. You cannot accurately compute
the number of seconds between Nixon's resignation and 1800 UTC today,
unless you take into account the leap seconds have been occurred
between then and now. If you want a precise timestamp and you don't
want to deal with leap seconds, TAI is one approach. There is
currently some political pressure to get rid of leap seconds to ease
computer synchronization, but (at least some of) the astronomy
community is opposed; see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second
http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/
TAI really does seem like the most absolute--if you are a user in
orbit or on Mars, then UTC timestamps will seem pretty meaningless and
artificial.
> By "recognized real-time clock) that I mean an atomic clock and
> distribution network such as GPS or (in the UK or Germany) an MSF
> low frequency radio broadcast. NTP using tier-1 sources may do the
> job too. The clock interface may need to be JINI because most
> suitable receivers have serial interfaces.
No do NOT use stratum 1 sources for something like this. They are
reference clocks for stratum 2 servers and are overloaded from being
used unnecessarily for other purposes. You are fine using GPS or one
of the many public lower stratum servers for just about any purpose.
See:
http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Servers/RulesOfEngagement
> This is certainly accurate for financial transactions: the UK CHAPS
> inter-bank network has a Rugby MSF receiver in each bank's gateway
> computer and uses that for all timestamps.
That is much more sensible than using a stratum 1 server.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:39:48 -0700
From: sla29970@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
Message-Id: <1182836388.204373.231220@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 25, 6:46 pm, Paul Rubin <http://phr...@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
> TAI really does seem like the most absolute--if you are a user in
> orbit or on Mars, then UTC timestamps will seem pretty meaningless and
> artificial.
TAI makes sense for clocks on the surface of the earth (at least until
ion trap clocks and picosecond intercomparison become routine, at
which point not even TAI tells what time it is for you), but clocks
off the surface of the earth tick at rates which already differ
nonlinearly from TAI by measurable amounts.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:04:50 +0100
From: Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address>
Subject: Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
Message-Id: <70c7l4-2gp.ln1@zoogz.gregorie.org>
Paul Rubin wrote:
> Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address> writes:
>>>> pretend the leap seconds never happened, just as Java does.
>>> Which leaves you about 30 seconds out by now - smelly.
>> Easy solution: always read Zulu time directly from a recognized
>> real-time clock
>
> That's no good, it doesn't let you accurately compute the difference
> between timestamps.
>
I don't recall the OP mentioning time interval computability - just a
requirement for sub second accuracy timestamps.
> If you want a precise timestamp and you don't
> want to deal with leap seconds, TAI is one approach.
>
TAI? Care to provide a reference?
> There is
> currently some political pressure to get rid of leap seconds to ease
> computer synchronization, but (at least some of) the astronomy
> community is opposed; see
>
Yes, that's just silly, especially because if you're trying to do
date-time calculations across historic time or non-western calendars
(e.g. Islamic) the minuscule accumulated leap second error is dwarfed by
all the other uncertainties.
> No do NOT use stratum 1 sources for something like this.
>
Fair comment. I was thinking about network delays and jitter and should
not have forgotten Stratum 1 congestion. Of course, you could always run
your own local Stratum 1 clock if accuracy is that important.
IIRC the major American interbank networks use GPS as their time
standard because its about the only system that can avoid jitter and
propagation delays over continental areas without introducing smoothing
engines, e.g. ntpd.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jun 2007 10:13:58 -0700
From: Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid>
Subject: Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
Message-Id: <7xlke6y6y1.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address> writes:
> I don't recall the OP mentioning time interval computability - just a
> requirement for sub second accuracy timestamps.
That Y2038 is an issue suggests the OP wants a timestamp format that
is future-proof and that means it should be good for all plausible
applications. That would include computing intervals.
> > If you want a precise timestamp and you don't
> > want to deal with leap seconds, TAI is one approach.
> >
> TAI? Care to provide a reference?
Same one already given: http://cr.yp.to/proto/utctai.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:18:47 GMT
From: Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
Message-Id: <XTbgi.1136$tj6.1079@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:04:50 +0100, Martin Gregorie
<martin@see.sig.for.address> declaimed the following in
comp.lang.python:
> TAI? Care to provide a reference?
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com wulfraed@bestiaria.com
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
(Bestiaria Support Staff: web-asst@bestiaria.com)
HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:10:41 GMT
From: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Subject: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.8 $)
Message-Id: <RZ2gi.4065$vi5.348@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>
Outline
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
- Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
Really Really Should
- Lurk for a while before posting
- Search a Usenet archive
If You Like
- Check Other Resources
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Is there a better place to ask your question?
- Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
- Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
- Use an effective followup style
- Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
- Ask perl to help you
- Do not re-type Perl code
- Provide enough information
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- Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
Social faux pas to avoid
- Asking a Frequently Asked Question
- Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
- Asking for emailed answers
- Beware of saying "doesn't work"
- Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
Be extra cautious when you get upset
- Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
- Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.8 $)
This newsgroup, commonly called clpmisc, is a technical newsgroup
intended to be used for discussion of Perl related issues (except job
postings), whether it be comments or questions.
As you would expect, clpmisc discussions are usually very technical in
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The article at:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
describes how to get answers from technical people in general.
This article describes things that you should, and should not, do to
increase your chances of getting an answer to your Perl question. It is
available in POD, HTML and plain text formats at:
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For more information about netiquette in general, see the "Netiquette
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A note to newsgroup "regulars":
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Do *NOT* send email to the maintainer of these guidelines. It will be
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Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
This section describes things that you *must* do before posting to
clpmisc, in order to maximize your chances of getting meaningful replies
to your inquiry and to avoid getting flamed for being lazy and trying to
have others do your work.
The perl distribution includes documentation that is copied to your hard
drive when you install perl. Also installed is a program for looking
things up in that (and other) documentation named 'perldoc'.
You should either find out where the docs got installed on your system,
or use perldoc to find them for you. Type "perldoc perldoc" to learn how
to use perldoc itself. Type "perldoc perl" to start reading Perl's
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Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Checking the FAQ before posting is required in Big 8 newsgroups in
general, there is nothing clpmisc-specific about this requirement.
You are expected to do this in nearly all newsgroups.
You can use the "-q" switch with perldoc to do a word search of the
questions in the Perl FAQs.
Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
The perl distribution comes with much more documentation than is
available for most other newsgroups, so in clpmisc you should also
see if you can find an answer in the other (non-FAQ) standard docs
before posting.
It is *not* required, or even expected, that you actually *read* all of
Perl's standard docs, only that you spend a few minutes searching them
before posting.
Try doing a word-search in the standard docs for some words/phrases
taken from your problem statement or from your very carefully worded
"Subject:" header.
Really Really Should
This section describes things that you *really should* do before posting
to clpmisc.
Lurk for a while before posting
This is very important and expected in all newsgroups. Lurking means
to monitor a newsgroup for a period to become familiar with local
customs. Each newsgroup has specific customs and rituals. Knowing
these before you participate will help avoid embarrassing social
situations. Consider yourself to be a foreigner at first!
Search a Usenet archive
There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers. It is very likely
that your question has already been asked (and answered). See if you
can find where it has already been answered.
One such searchable archive is:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search
If You Like
This section describes things that you *can* do before posting to
clpmisc.
Check Other Resources
You may want to check in books or on web sites to see if you can
find the answer to your question.
But you need to consider the source of such information: there are a
lot of very poor Perl books and web sites, and several good ones
too, of course.
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
There can be 200 messages in clpmisc in a single day. Nobody is going to
read every article. They must decide somehow which articles they are
going to read, and which they will skip.
Your post is in competition with 199 other posts. You need to "win"
before a person who can help you will even read your question.
These sections describe how you can help keep your article from being
one of the "skipped" ones.
Is there a better place to ask your question?
Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
It can be difficult to separate out where your problem really is,
but you should make a conscious effort to post to the most
applicable newsgroup. That is, after all, where you are the most
likely to find the people who know how to answer your question.
Being able to "partition" a problem is an essential skill for
effectively troubleshooting programming problems. If you don't get
that right, you end up looking for answers in the wrong places.
It should be understood that you may not know that the root of your
problem is not Perl-related (the two most frequent ones are CGI and
Operating System related), so off-topic postings will happen from
time to time. Be gracious when someone helps you find a better place
to ask your question by pointing you to a more applicable newsgroup.
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
You have 40 precious characters of Subject to win out and be one of
the posts that gets read. Don't waste them. Take care while
composing them, they are the key that opens the door to getting an
answer.
Spend them indicating what aspect of Perl others will find if they
should decide to read your article.
Do not spend them indicating "experience level" (guru, newbie...).
Do not spend them pleading (please read, urgent, help!...).
Do not spend them on non-Subjects (Perl question, one-word
Subject...)
For more information on choosing a Subject see "Choosing Good
Subject Lines":
http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/D/DM/DMR/subjects.post
Part of the beauty of newsgroup dynamics, is that you can contribute
to the community with your very first post! If your choice of
Subject leads a fellow Perler to find the thread you are starting,
then even asking a question helps us all.
Use an effective followup style
When composing a followup, quote only enough text to establish the
context for the comments that you will add. Always indicate who
wrote the quoted material. Never quote an entire article. Never
quote a .signature (unless that is what you are commenting on).
Intersperse your comments *following* each section of quoted text to
which they relate. Unappreciated followup styles are referred to as
"top-posting", "Jeopardy" (because the answer comes before the
question), or "TOFU" (Text Over, Fullquote Under).
Reversing the chronology of the dialog makes it much harder to
understand (some folks won't even read it if written in that style).
For more information on quoting style, see:
http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/nquote.html
Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
Perl is much more precise than natural language. Saying it in Perl
instead will avoid misunderstanding your question or problem.
Do not say: I have variable with "foo\tbar" in it.
Instead say: I have $var = "foo\tbar", or I have $var = 'foo\tbar',
or I have $var = <DATA> (and show the data line).
Ask perl to help you
You can ask perl itself to help you find common programming mistakes
by doing two things: enable warnings (perldoc warnings) and enable
"strict"ures (perldoc strict).
You should not bother the hundreds/thousands of readers of the
newsgroup without first seeing if a machine can help you find your
problem. It is demeaning to be asked to do the work of a machine. It
will annoy the readers of your article.
You can look up any of the messages that perl might issue to find
out what the message means and how to resolve the potential mistake
(perldoc perldiag). If you would like perl to look them up for you,
you can put "use diagnostics;" near the top of your program.
Do not re-type Perl code
Use copy/paste or your editor's "import" function rather than
attempting to type in your code. If you make a typo you will get
followups about your typos instead of about the question you are
trying to get answered.
Provide enough information
If you do the things in this item, you will have an Extremely Good
chance of getting people to try and help you with your problem!
These features are a really big bonus toward your question winning
out over all of the other posts that you are competing with.
First make a short (less than 20-30 lines) and *complete* program
that illustrates the problem you are having. People should be able
to run your program by copy/pasting the code from your article. (You
will find that doing this step very often reveals your problem
directly. Leading to an answer much more quickly and reliably than
posting to Usenet.)
Describe *precisely* the input to your program. Also provide example
input data for your program. If you need to show file input, use the
__DATA__ token (perldata.pod) to provide the file contents inside of
your Perl program.
Show the output (including the verbatim text of any messages) of
your program.
Describe how you want the output to be different from what you are
getting.
If you have no idea at all of how to code up your situation, be sure
to at least describe the 2 things that you *do* know: input and
desired output.
Do not provide too much information
Do not just post your entire program for debugging. Most especially
do not post someone *else's* entire program.
Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
clpmisc is a text only newsgroup. If you have images or binaries
that explain your question, put them in a publically accessible
place (like a Web server) and provide a pointer to that location. If
you include code, cut and paste it directly in the message body.
Don't attach anything to the message. Don't post vcards or HTML.
Many people (and even some Usenet servers) will automatically filter
out such messages. Many people will not be able to easily read your
post. Plain text is something everyone can read.
Social faux pas to avoid
The first two below are symptoms of lots of FAQ asking here in clpmisc.
It happens so often that folks will assume that it is happening yet
again. If you have looked but not found, or found but didn't understand
the docs, say so in your article.
Asking a Frequently Asked Question
It should be understood that you may have missed the applicable FAQ
when you checked, which is not a big deal. But if the Frequently
Asked Question is worded similar to your question, folks will assume
that you did not look at all. Don't become indignant at pointers to
the FAQ, particularly if it solves your problem.
Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
If folks think you have not even tried the obvious step of reading
the docs applicable to your problem, they are likely to become
annoyed.
If you are flamed for not checking when you *did* check, then just
shrug it off (and take the answer that you got).
Asking for emailed answers
Emailed answers benefit one person. Posted answers benefit the
entire community. If folks can take the time to answer your
question, then you can take the time to go get the answer in the
same place where you asked the question.
It is OK to ask for a *copy* of the answer to be emailed, but many
will ignore such requests anyway. If you munge your address, you
should never expect (or ask) to get email in response to a Usenet
post.
Ask the question here, get the answer here (maybe).
Beware of saying "doesn't work"
This is a "red flag" phrase. If you find yourself writing that,
pause and see if you can't describe what is not working without
saying "doesn't work". That is, describe how it is not what you
want.
Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
A "stealth Cc" is when you both email and post a reply without
indicating *in the body* that you are doing so.
Be extra cautious when you get upset
Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
This is recommended in all Usenet newsgroups. Here in clpmisc, most
flaming sub-threads are not about any feature of Perl at all! They
are most often for what was seen as a breach of netiquette. If you
have lurked for a bit, then you will know what is expected and won't
make such posts in the first place.
But if you get upset, wait a while before writing your followup. I
recommend waiting at least 30 minutes.
Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
After you have written your followup, wait *another* 30 minutes
before committing yourself by posting it. You cannot take it back
once it has been said.
AUTHOR
Tad McClellan and many others on the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 581
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