[29303] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 547 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Jun 21 11:14:24 2007
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:14:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 21 Jun 2007 Volume: 11 Number: 547
Today's topics:
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <roy@panix.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <lew@lewscanon.nospam>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <eadmund42@NOSPAMgmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs (Joel J. Adamson)
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <notbob@nothome.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and (Joel J. Adamson)
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and (Joel J. Adamson)
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and (Joel J. Adamson)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:49:28 -0400
From: Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <roy-9C4683.09492821062007@032-325-625.area1.spcsdns.net>
In article <86y7ieoiv7.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
wrote:
> Kaldrenon <kaldrenon@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I'm very, very new to emacs. I used it a little this past year in
> > college, but I didn't try at all to delve into its features. I'm
> > starting that process now, and frankly, the thought of it changing -
> > already- upsets me. I don't feel like the program ought to change in
> > order to accommodate me.
>
> Actually, the "E" in "Emacs" stands for "extensible". Part of the
> appeal of Emacs is that you can change it to accommodate you.
Actually, the "E" in Emacs stands for "Editor". And the macs part stands
for "Macros". As in "Editor Macros". It started out as a bunch of macros
written in TECO.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:55:13 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <86lkedl8e6.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>
Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> writes:
> In article <86y7ieoiv7.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Kaldrenon <kaldrenon@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > I'm very, very new to emacs. I used it a little this past year in
>> > college, but I didn't try at all to delve into its features. I'm
>> > starting that process now, and frankly, the thought of it changing -
>> > already- upsets me. I don't feel like the program ought to change in
>> > order to accommodate me.
>>
>> Actually, the "E" in "Emacs" stands for "extensible". Part of the
>> appeal of Emacs is that you can change it to accommodate you.
>
> Actually, the "E" in Emacs stands for "Editor". And the macs part
> stands for "Macros". As in "Editor Macros". It started out as a
> bunch of macros written in TECO.
It's not like I did not know this. Don't ask me what got into my head
here.
--
David Kastrup
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:10:46 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <m3fy4lbdp5.fsf@borud.not>
[Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>]
|
| Given that in its out-of-the-box configuration it's well-nigh unusable
| without a printed-out "cheat sheet" of some kind, of the sort that
| were supposed to have died out in the 80s, getting it customized poses
| something of a catch-22 for anyone trying to get started using it.
indeed, not adhering to the half a dozen keybinding and menu
conventions that most newer applications use on OSX and Windows today
is not ideal UI design, but it doesn't really present that much of a
problem either; so it ends up being a non-issue to any regular user.
(actually, it isn't merely a case of changing some keybindings and
names -- the problem is that Emacs has a bunch of concepts that are
not easily mapped to trivial editor semantics, so it would be hard to
change without causing further confusion).
Emacs isn't really meant for the casual user and there are editors far
better suited for those who think spending an afternoon learning it is
too much. (compare to VI or VIM, which probably takes even a bit
longer to grasp, but which is beautifully practical once you
understand how it works. there's this good tech-talk given by Bram
Moolenaar available¹ on about text editing and VIM).
¹) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2538831956647446078
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:26:10 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <m3abutbczh.fsf@borud.not>
[Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address>]
|
| As for documentation, lets look at vi. Not a great editor, but every
| *nix variation has it installed and any fool can learn to use it in
| about 2 hours flat and it does at least have good pattern matching.
there's also the "info" system in Emacs, which not only covers Emacs
itself, but usually also a lot of documentation available for Emacs
extensions and other programs. again, this predates a lot of things
that people are used to today, so just because it seems (and sometimes
is) a bit more fiddly, it must necessarily be inferior.
the most common theme when people have to choose between products is
that they are not really comparing what it is like to use the products
like they were intended -- they are merely underlining that X is not
Y. for instance, Linux has come a long way in addressing the needs of
desktop users, yet some people refuse to use Linux because it doesn't
behave *exactly* like Windows (as if that was a worthwhile goal) and
they are too lazy or don't think they can manage, to learn a new
system.
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:32:44 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <m34pl1bcoj.fsf@borud.not>
[BartlebyScrivener <bscrivener42@gmail.com>]
|
| http://www.debian-administration.org/polls/89
this is hardly surprising. I use both editors. for most sysadmin
tasks I use vi(m). for programming i use Emacs.
in part out of old habit (most UNIX systems had vi installed) and
partly because vi(m) is faster (which makes it more suitable when you
just need to change a couple of lines in a file).
for programming I use Emacs since I have a gazillion extensions I use
while programming that I don't even think about anymore. from various
forms of automated text completion to syntax checking/highlighting, to
enforcing style guides, look up symbol relationships, compile, debug
etc.
so if the context was system administration, I'd vote for vi as
well. if the context was programming I'd vote Emacs.
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:36:32 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <86hcp1l6hb.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>
Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no> writes:
> [BartlebyScrivener <bscrivener42@gmail.com>]
> |
> | http://www.debian-administration.org/polls/89
>
> this is hardly surprising. I use both editors. for most sysadmin
> tasks I use vi(m). for programming i use Emacs.
>
> in part out of old habit (most UNIX systems had vi installed) and
> partly because vi(m) is faster (which makes it more suitable when you
> just need to change a couple of lines in a file).
The idea is to start Emacs once and use it for everything.
> so if the context was system administration, I'd vote for vi as
> well. if the context was programming I'd vote Emacs.
You know you can use something like
C-x C-f /su::/etc/fstab RET
(or /sudo::/etc/fstab) in order to edit files as root in a normal
Emacs session?
--
David Kastrup
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:48:30 -0400
From: Lew <lew@lewscanon.nospam>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <SqudnZtPMLgjEufbnZ2dnUVZ_qzinZ2d@comcast.com>
Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no> writes:
>> so if the context was system administration, I'd vote for vi as
>> well. if the context was programming I'd vote Emacs.
David Kastrup wrote:
> You know you can use something like
> C-x C-f /su::/etc/fstab RET
> (or /sudo::/etc/fstab) in order to edit files as root in a normal
> Emacs session?
I've been using emacs for something like twenty years and never knew that before.
I like the built-in therapist in emacs.
--
Lew
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:49:22 -0600
From: Robert Uhl <eadmund42@NOSPAMgmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <m3r6o54b2l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
>
> Given that in its out-of-the-box configuration it's well-nigh unusable
> without a printed-out "cheat sheet" of some kind, of the sort that
> were supposed to have died out in the 80s, getting it customized poses
> something of a catch-22 for anyone trying to get started using it.
I don't see that. C-h t is your friend if you're starting out. The
only keystrokes a user really needs to remember are C-x C-s and C-x C-c;
everything else simple text editing needs works as expected (arrow keys,
backspace and so forth). Granted, text-mode is friendlier than
fundamental-mode. Still, as a pico replacement emacs works well
enough--and as the user continue to works, he discovers more and more
functionality, eventually having a 10,000-line .emacs...
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
Listening to someone who brews his own beer is like listening to a
religious fanatic talk about the day he saw the light.
--Ross Murray, Montreal Gazette, 1991
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:51:23 -0400
From: jadamson@partners.org (Joel J. Adamson)
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <87k5tx7444.fsf@W0053328.mgh.harvard.edu>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jun 20, 12:39 pm, jadam...@partners.org (Joel J. Adamson) wrote:
>> The point is that the responsibility to customize is on the user.
>
> Given that in its out-of-the-box configuration it's well-nigh unusable
> without a printed-out "cheat sheet" of some kind, of the sort that
> were supposed to have died out in the 80s, getting it customized poses
> something of a catch-22 for anyone trying to get started using it.
Again, I have to point out that I had a different experience. I did
the tutorial, and somehow immediately I understood how to customize.
I don't remember having any difficulty with Emacs other than not
liking the way it looked -- that's because I was on Windows (I later
found out). I soon fixed that problem. I didn't need a cheat-sheet,
since the help files are _actually_ _helpful_ unlike those "Help"
(=advertising) files on most other pieces of software.
My point is that I'm the sort of person that has a mind set up for
Emacs. I had none of the difficulties that someone else might have,
who's used to other kinds of software.
However, I'll also point out that my wife has used Emacs a couple
times, and she's never done more than point and click with a computer,
and she's had no frustration whatsoever.
Joel
--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109
A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:58:16 -0500
From: notbob <notbob@nothome.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <E9ydnZaItdeVD-fbnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@comcast.com>
On 2007-06-21, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
> You know you can use something like
> C-x C-f /su::/etc/fstab RET
> (or /sudo::/etc/fstab) in order to edit files as root in a normal
> Emacs session?
As I understand it, this will only work for ver 22 and later or if
you have tramp(?) installed. I have 2.3.1 (no tramp) and all I get is:
ftp> open su
ftp: su: Unknown host
I'm looking at upgrading to 22 for a couple other features, too.
nb
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:01:20 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <86d4zpl5bz.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>
Lew <lew@lewscanon.nospam> writes:
> Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no> writes:
>>> so if the context was system administration, I'd vote for vi as
>>> well. if the context was programming I'd vote Emacs.
>
> David Kastrup wrote:
>> You know you can use something like
>> C-x C-f /su::/etc/fstab RET
>> (or /sudo::/etc/fstab) in order to edit files as root in a normal
>> Emacs session?
>
> I've been using emacs for something like twenty years and never knew
> that before.
The package "tramp" will provide that (as well as editing files over
ssh, scp, rsync, telnet, plink...). It is already preinstalled in
Emacs 22.1, but can also be installed for earlier versions.
--
David Kastrup
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:04:37 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <864pl1l56i.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>
notbob <notbob@nothome.com> writes:
> On 2007-06-21, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> You know you can use something like
>> C-x C-f /su::/etc/fstab RET
>> (or /sudo::/etc/fstab) in order to edit files as root in a normal
>> Emacs session?
>
> As I understand it, this will only work for ver 22 and later or if
> you have tramp(?) installed. I have 2.3.1 (no tramp) and all I get is:
>
> ftp> open su
> ftp: su: Unknown host
I should think that version 2.3.1 would not even try ftp. Is that on
Multics?
> I'm looking at upgrading to 22 for a couple other features, too.
You'll find that the last 30 years of development indeed make a
difference.
--
David Kastrup
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:52:17 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <m3y7id9x7i.fsf@borud.not>
[Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>]
|
| Being beginner-friendly doesn't have to be at the expense of power or
| expert-user usability.
depends on your definition of "expert". :-)
| On the other hand, being actively beginner-hostile leads to nobody
| adopting the tool. Then again, if you don't mind being the last
| generation that'll ever use it, then I guess you're okay with that.
obviously I lie awake dreading the day this happens. on my tombstone
will say "here lies the last Emacs user on earth. M-x rip".
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:55:49 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <m3ps3p9x1m.fsf@borud.not>
[Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>]
|
| Emacs does have documentation. The problem is you have to already know
| a load of emacs navigation oddities^Wkeyboard commands to get to and
| use it.
that, or just start Emacs and follow the instructions that appear on
the screen.
indeed, I *am* aware that something demanding an attention span in
excess of 3 seconds is a bit of a tall order for most users today.
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:59:39 -0400
From: jadamson@partners.org (Joel J. Adamson)
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <87fy4l73qc.fsf@W0053328.mgh.harvard.edu>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jun 20, 5:03 pm, Kaldrenon <kaldre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I still have a good deal to learn, even of the basics, but I've toyed
>> with it casually for a little bit (a total of two hours at most, but
>> almost certainly less) and I already know enough that finding out how
>> to do anything else IS trivial. It's not a program whose controls
>> throw themselves at you, exactly, but with a touch of patience and a
>> genuine interest in learning, it's not too bad.
>
> I don't know what software you're describing, but it's obviously not
> emacs, unless there have been some HUGE changes to (at minimum) the
> help and pane-navigation (er, excuse me, "window"-navigation)
> controls...
We're talking about Emacs. In particular we're referring to
C-h t
C-h i
C-h ?
Or, since Emacs is customizable, for me it would be
<f1> t
<f1> i
<f1> ?
Joel
--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109
A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:02:57 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <868xadl59a.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>
jadamson@partners.org (Joel J. Adamson) writes:
> Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Jun 20, 5:03 pm, Kaldrenon <kaldre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I still have a good deal to learn, even of the basics, but I've toyed
>>> with it casually for a little bit (a total of two hours at most, but
>>> almost certainly less) and I already know enough that finding out how
>>> to do anything else IS trivial. It's not a program whose controls
>>> throw themselves at you, exactly, but with a touch of patience and a
>>> genuine interest in learning, it's not too bad.
>>
>> I don't know what software you're describing, but it's obviously not
>> emacs, unless there have been some HUGE changes to (at minimum) the
>> help and pane-navigation (er, excuse me, "window"-navigation)
>> controls...
>
> We're talking about Emacs. In particular we're referring to
>
> C-h t
> C-h i
> C-h ?
>
> Or, since Emacs is customizable, for me it would be
>
> <f1> t
> <f1> i
> <f1> ?
Huh? The latter are available by default on Emacs 22.1.
--
David Kastrup
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:01:19 -0400
From: jadamson@partners.org (Joel J. Adamson)
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <87bqf973nk.fsf@W0053328.mgh.harvard.edu>
Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> writes:
>
> Here's a nice one from Ken Thompson:
>
> ``I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded
> pejorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated".''
That's a good one. It's going on my wall.
Joel
--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109
A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:01:52 -0400
From: jadamson@partners.org (Joel J. Adamson)
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <87abut73mn.fsf@W0053328.mgh.harvard.edu>
Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> writes:
>
> Here's a nice one from Ken Thompson:
>
> ``I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded
> pejorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated".''
That's a good one. It's going on my wall.
Joel
--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109
A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html
------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 547
**************************************
