[29299] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 543 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Jun 20 18:14:23 2007
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:14:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 20 Jun 2007 Volume: 11 Number: 543
Today's topics:
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <kaldrenon@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <mkb@incubus.de>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <mkb@incubus.de>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <cor@clsnet.nl>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:10:16 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182370216.961241.6960@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 8:52 am, Bjorn Borud <borud-n...@borud.no> wrote:
> I found Emacs to be user friendly, but in a different sense than the,
> IMHO faulty definition, "beginner friendly". Emacs let me, as a user,
> do more with less effort and provides a lot less friction than many
> other developer tools I've used. at work I use it extensively, and we
> have lots of neat extensions that really save a lot of time.
Being beginner-friendly doesn't have to be at the expense of power or
expert-user usability.
On the other hand, being actively beginner-hostile leads to nobody
adopting the tool. Then again, if you don't mind being the last
generation that'll ever use it, then I guess you're okay with that. If
it suits its existing users, the rest of us will just continue to use
something else.
I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
www.asktog.com (exact URL escapes me; sorry).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:35:12 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <85zm2ufjpb.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
> On the other hand, being actively beginner-hostile leads to nobody
> adopting the tool. Then again, if you don't mind being the last
> generation that'll ever use it, then I guess you're okay with
> that. If it suits its existing users, the rest of us will just
> continue to use something else.
>
> I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
> keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
> elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
> www.asktog.com (exact URL escapes me; sorry).
You are babbling.
Emacs is amazingly beginner-friendly for the power and flexibility it
provides. You can sit a beginner at an Emacs session and have him
start editing and learning. You can't do the same, say, with vi or a
clone: the least you need is a vi helpsheet/cheat cup. With Emacs,
the help sheet is helpful but optional (most people would be eyed
strangely anyway if they kept a cheat barrel around at their
workplace).
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:49:52 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182372592.803332.288260@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 4:35 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
> Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On the other hand, being actively beginner-hostile leads to nobody
> > adopting the tool. Then again, if you don't mind being the last
> > generation that'll ever use it, then I guess you're okay with
> > that. If it suits its existing users, the rest of us will just
> > continue to use something else.
>
> > I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
> > keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
> > elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
> >www.asktog.com(exact URL escapes me; sorry).
>
> You are babbling.
No, I am not. You, however, are being gratuitously insulting.
> Emacs is amazingly beginner-friendly for the power and flexibility it
> provides. [snip]
That's a joke, right? I tried it a time or two. Every time it was
rapidly apparent that doing anything non-trivial would require
consulting a cheat sheet. The printed-out kind, since navigating to
the help and back without already having the help displayed and open
to the command reference was also non-trivial.
Four hours of wasted time later, with zero productivity to show for
it, I deleted it. The same thing happened again, so it wasn't a bad
day or a fluke or a one-off or the particular version, either.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:03:39 -0000
From: Kaldrenon <kaldrenon@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182373419.522607.14500@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 4:49 pm, Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 20, 4:35 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> > Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > On the other hand, being actively beginner-hostile leads to nobody
> > > adopting the tool. Then again, if you don't mind being the last
> > > generation that'll ever use it, then I guess you're okay with
> > > that. If it suits its existing users, the rest of us will just
> > > continue to use something else.
>
> > > I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
> > > keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
> > > elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
> > >www.asktog.com(exactURL escapes me; sorry).
>
> > You are babbling.
>
> No, I am not. You, however, are being gratuitously insulting.
>
> > Emacs is amazingly beginner-friendly for the power and flexibility it
> > provides. [snip]
>
> That's a joke, right? I tried it a time or two. Every time it was
> rapidly apparent that doing anything non-trivial would require
> consulting a cheat sheet. The printed-out kind, since navigating to
> the help and back without already having the help displayed and open
> to the command reference was also non-trivial.
>
> Four hours of wasted time later, with zero productivity to show for
> it, I deleted it. The same thing happened again, so it wasn't a bad
> day or a fluke or a one-off or the particular version, either.
I agree with you in that emacs is not inherently nor universally
beginner friendly. However, if you are trying to make the claim that
it is impossible to pick it up quickly, then I no longer agree with
you.
I still have a good deal to learn, even of the basics, but I've toyed
with it casually for a little bit (a total of two hours at most, but
almost certainly less) and I already know enough that finding out how
to do anything else IS trivial. It's not a program whose controls
throw themselves at you, exactly, but with a touch of patience and a
genuine interest in learning, it's not too bad.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:11:59 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182373919.262388.100740@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 4:49 pm, Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 20, 4:35 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
> > Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
> > > keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
> > > elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
> > >www.asktog.com(exactURL escapes me; sorry).
>
> > You are babbling.
>
> No, I am not. You, however, are being gratuitously insulting.
I have that exact URL now -- http://www.asktog.com/columns/027InterfacesThatKill.html
The most relevant section is towards the bottom of the page.
Curiously, you can jump right to it with a text-find of the word
"girls".
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:21:24 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <85r6o6fhkb.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jun 20, 4:49 pm, Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 20, 4:35 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> > Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > > I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
>> > > keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
>> > > elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
>> > >www.asktog.com(exactURL escapes me; sorry).
>>
>> > You are babbling.
>>
>> No, I am not. You, however, are being gratuitously insulting.
>
> I have that exact URL now --
> http://www.asktog.com/columns/027InterfacesThatKill.html
Utterly unrelated to Emacs.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:22:46 +0200
From: Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <5dtk4tF34jrimU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Twisted wrote:
> That's a joke, right? I tried it a time or two. Every time it was
> rapidly apparent that doing anything non-trivial would require
> consulting a cheat sheet. The printed-out kind, since navigating to
> the help and back without already having the help displayed and open
> to the command reference was also non-trivial.
Ah, yes.. we live in a time where no-one seems to have the patience to
read documentation anymore. Maybe that's why there is such a scarcity of
good documentation with many "modern" software packages.
Here's a nice one from Ken Thompson:
``I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded
pejorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated".''
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:28:22 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182374902.920671.171900@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 5:03 pm, Kaldrenon <kaldre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I still have a good deal to learn, even of the basics, but I've toyed
> with it casually for a little bit (a total of two hours at most, but
> almost certainly less) and I already know enough that finding out how
> to do anything else IS trivial. It's not a program whose controls
> throw themselves at you, exactly, but with a touch of patience and a
> genuine interest in learning, it's not too bad.
I don't know what software you're describing, but it's obviously not
emacs, unless there have been some HUGE changes to (at minimum) the
help and pane-navigation (er, excuse me, "window"-navigation)
controls...
My experiences (with emacs and with a lot of other supposedly-
superior, usually unix-heritage software) put me in mind of an
analogy: fumbling around in a strange house in the dark without a
flashlight, banging into furniture frequently, trying to find a light
switch, but it turns out the switches are all spring-loaded. For some
reason (saving electricity and fighting the war against global
warming?) if you go to start doing anything else the light goes off
again immediately -- so you have to stand there holding the switch,
memorize the contents of the room, and then quickly do whatever you
needed to do before your memory of the room's layout and where things
are fades! Then back to the switch, or trip and fumble your way to a
different room's switch...wash, rinse, repeat...
Nobody would actually design a home (or a workplace) like that in a
trillion years, global warming be damned. So why do people still
sometimes design software like that?
Oh and did I mention that these houses' layouts are also totally
strange, with the living room on the top floor and the kitchen in the
basement, or other things of that nature, so you can't transfer any
knowledge of conventional home designs to aid in your navigation
there...and they are even all different from one another, nevermind
"normal" houses...
BTW, is anyone else finding Google Groups especially ornery of late? I
get all of the following, recurrently:
* I enter one reply in a thread, and it works. Then I go to make a
second reply, and I get a text box like one uses to enter a reply,
except evidently read-only -- I can select text but there is no
blinking cursor.
* The fix seems to be to navigate off the page and back.
Unfortunately, that then pops up some dialog. I think GG is trying to
protect me from losing unsaved changes, except that there are
obviously no unsaved changes to the (read-only!) form for me to lose!
* The "back" button is wonky -- it seems to require hitting back
*twice* to go back *one* page to the previous page of the thread or to
the newsgroup's thread index, if already on the first (or only) page.
* After *that*, "forward" behaves sometimes normally and sometimes as
"forward and then click a reply link on some random post"??
* Submitting a post results in the form disappearing and being
replaced by "The post was entered successfully". Of course, if it
turns out to have NOT been all that successful as evidenced from
refreshing the page or using an external newsserver (I have found one
read-only one suitable for verifying that a posting succeeded and
propagated beyond GG's server), there's no way to get back to the form
to try to resubmit the text, or even to recover it to the clipboard to
paste into a fresh form for a fresh attempt. So far, it's never
actually lied and claimed a posting was successful that wasn't, but
there's a first time for everything, and we all know the track record
for QA in the software industry ... and the way one of the more common
failure modes of software is silent failure, claiming success on
failure, claiming failure on success, or claiming one failure when a
different failure happened! (All the various forms of diagnostics
failure...) I guess I have to pre-emptively copy the form contents to
the clipboard before clicking submit, and preserve the clipboard
contents pending verification, or risk catastrophic data loss, because
GG can't be arsed to make a decent interface, or even to leave well
enough alone and stop constantly changing it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:30:45 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182375045.626510.188170@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 5:21 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
> Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On Jun 20, 4:49 pm, Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 20, 4:35 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
> >> > Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> > > I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
> >> > > keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
> >> > > elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
> >> > >www.asktog.com(exactURLescapes me; sorry).
>
> >> > You are babbling.
>
> >> No, I am not. You, however, are being gratuitously insulting.
>
> > I have that exact URL now --
> >http://www.asktog.com/columns/027InterfacesThatKill.html
>
> Utterly unrelated to Emacs.
I think it is quite relevant. Clunky computer interfaces may not be so
dramatically dangerous, but they certainly can hamper productivity.
Between Windows bugs and gratuitous misfeatures (e.g. DRM) and Unix
clunkiness, billions of dollars of potential productivity is lost
worldwide every *month*.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:35:40 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <85myyufgwj.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jun 20, 5:21 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > On Jun 20, 4:49 pm, Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Jun 20, 4:35 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> >> > Twisted <twisted...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> > > I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
>> >> > > keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
>> >> > > elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
>> >> > >www.asktog.com(exactURLescapes me; sorry).
>>
>> >> > You are babbling.
>>
>> >> No, I am not. You, however, are being gratuitously insulting.
>>
>> > I have that exact URL now --
>> >http://www.asktog.com/columns/027InterfacesThatKill.html
>>
>> Utterly unrelated to Emacs.
>
> I think it is quite relevant. Clunky computer interfaces may not be
> so dramatically dangerous, but they certainly can hamper
> productivity.
But Emacs does not have a "clunky" interface.
> Between Windows bugs and gratuitous misfeatures (e.g. DRM) and Unix
> clunkiness, billions of dollars of potential productivity is lost
> worldwide every *month*.
You are spewing again.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:36:28 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182375388.814275.227380@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 5:22 pm, Matthias Buelow <m...@incubus.de> wrote:
> Twisted wrote:
> > That's a joke, right? I tried it a time or two. Every time it was
> > rapidly apparent that doing anything non-trivial would require
> > consulting a cheat sheet. The printed-out kind, since navigating to
> > the help and back without already having the help displayed and open
> > to the command reference was also non-trivial.
>
> Ah, yes.. we live in a time where no-one seems to have the patience to
> read documentation anymore. Maybe that's why there is such a scarcity of
> good documentation with many "modern" software packages.
Emacs does have documentation. The problem is you have to already know
a load of emacs navigation oddities^Wkeyboard commands to get to and
use it.
Also, basic tasks should not require consulting the documentation,
unless the application genre is new to the user. Basic tasks requiring
the uninitiated to consult the documentation is okay in 3D modeling
apps, given the "uninitiated" have used none before. Basic tasks
requiring the uninitiated to consult the documentation is absolutely
ludicrous in a text editor.
I count "consulting the documentation" as one of those basic tasks,
along with the fundamental editing, saving, loading, and searching
functionality (including, of course, "searching the documentation").
> ``I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded
> pejorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated".''
Yeah, and I abhor the elitist systems that are designed with the
philosophy that anyone who hasn't mastered years of arcane
memorization and training in just that one idiosyncratic system is /
ipso facto/ "stupid and unsophisticated". Most of us 6 and a half
billion people have better uses for our time, such as buckling in and
being promptly productive, once we're out of high school or college,
and fully three and a quarter of us are at least as smart as average,
and so /ipso facto/ *not* "stupid and unsophisticated".
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:37:14 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <85ir9ifgtx.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jun 20, 5:03 pm, Kaldrenon <kaldre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I still have a good deal to learn, even of the basics, but I've toyed
>> with it casually for a little bit (a total of two hours at most, but
>> almost certainly less) and I already know enough that finding out how
>> to do anything else IS trivial. It's not a program whose controls
>> throw themselves at you, exactly, but with a touch of patience and a
>> genuine interest in learning, it's not too bad.
>
> I don't know what software you're describing, but it's obviously not
> emacs, unless there have been some HUGE changes to (at minimum) the
> help and pane-navigation (er, excuse me, "window"-navigation)
> controls...
So what version are you babbling about?
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:38:48 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182375528.985142.293900@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 5:35 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
> But Emacs does not have a "clunky" interface.
That's for the everyday novice-to-intermediate user to decide. Your
gnu.org email address (and attitude) clearly marks you as not a normal
user, and so your opinion doesn't count.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:39:00 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <85ejk6fgqz.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jun 20, 5:22 pm, Matthias Buelow <m...@incubus.de> wrote:
>> Twisted wrote:
>> > That's a joke, right? I tried it a time or two. Every time it was
>> > rapidly apparent that doing anything non-trivial would require
>> > consulting a cheat sheet. The printed-out kind, since navigating to
>> > the help and back without already having the help displayed and open
>> > to the command reference was also non-trivial.
>>
>> Ah, yes.. we live in a time where no-one seems to have the patience to
>> read documentation anymore. Maybe that's why there is such a scarcity of
>> good documentation with many "modern" software packages.
>
> Emacs does have documentation. The problem is you have to already
> know a load of emacs navigation oddities^Wkeyboard commands to get
> to and use it.
Menus and toolbars exist.
> Also, basic tasks should not require consulting the documentation,
> unless the application genre is new to the user.
And they don't.
Really, what is the last version of Emacs you actually tried?
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:40:30 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <85abuufgoh.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jun 20, 5:35 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> But Emacs does not have a "clunky" interface.
>
> That's for the everyday novice-to-intermediate user to decide.
And they do.
> Your gnu.org email address (and attitude) clearly marks you as not a
> normal user, and so your opinion doesn't count.
Your email address and attitude marks you as an anonymous troll.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:43:04 +0200
From: Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <5dtlavF34is51U1@mid.dfncis.de>
Twisted wrote:
> Emacs does have documentation. The problem is you have to already know
> a load of emacs navigation oddities^Wkeyboard commands to get to and
> use it.
Yes, like hitting the F1 key.
> Yeah, and I abhor the elitist systems that are designed with the
> philosophy that anyone who hasn't mastered years of arcane
> memorization and training in just that one idiosyncratic system is /
> ipso facto/ "stupid and unsophisticated". Most of us 6 and a half
> billion people have better uses for our time, such as buckling in and
> being promptly productive, once we're out of high school or college,
> and fully three and a quarter of us are at least as smart as average,
> and so /ipso facto/ *not* "stupid and unsophisticated".
Noone forces you to use either Unix or emacs (or vi, for that matter).
I don't really understand what your problem is.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:47:24 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182376044.852820.261530@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 20, 5:37 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
> ...spewing...babbling...
I won't dignify your insulting twaddle and random ad-hominem verbiage
with any more responses after this one. Something with actual logical
argumentation to rebut may be another matter of course.
One more GG issue: those stupid star ratings. So potentially
prejudicial. So easy to game, as evidenced by your managing to somehow
vote 82 times(!) against one of my posts in a matter of minutes. So
far I've found a less-impressive method to game them -- it's not hard
to get throwaway accounts elsewhere, send yourself there a gmail
invite, and create many GG accounts. Handy to get around their onerous
posting limits. Handy for stuffing the star-vote ballot boxes with
multiple votes, too, but there's no way I can see to generate 82 of
them that fast by that method, and that much logging in and out in
that short a time using different accounts but from just one IP
address is sure to come up on Google's radar somehow, with
unpredictable but probably bad results. How did you do it? I'm
guessing they stop the link for voting appearing as a usable link on
the page for a) your own posts and b) the ones you've voted for, but
the link's URL still works, so if you use a script to keep fetching
the appropriate URL ...
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jun 2007 21:56:17 +0000
From: Cor Gest <cor@clsnet.nl>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <87wsxyffy6.fsf@telesippa.clsnet.nl>
Some entity, AKA Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>,
wrote this mindboggling stuff:
(selectively-snipped-or-not-p)
> On the other hand, being actively beginner-hostile leads to nobody
> adopting the tool. Then again, if you don't mind being the last
> generation that'll ever use it, then I guess you're okay with that. If
> it suits its existing users, the rest of us will just continue to use
> something else.
> I continue to suspect that there's an ulterior motive for making and
> keeping certain software actively beginner-hostile; a certain macho
> elitism also seen with light aircraft pilots and commented on at
> www.asktog.com (exact URL escapes me; sorry).
Of course! real tools are not for wannabees.
Just like there are a lot of people that have a shed full off the most
modern power-tools that money can buy from the local DIY-Market,
but cannot build a chickencoop if their life depended on it.
If you are to lazy to learn how to use any tool, it will not serve
you in any usefull manner.
But if you are to dumb to grok it, it's useless anyway.
Cor
--
(defvar MyComputer '((OS . "GNU/Emacs") (IPL . "GNU/Linux")))
The biggest problem LISP has, is that it does not appeal to dumb people
If that fails to satisfy read the HyperSpec, woman frig or Tuxoharata
mailpolicy @ http://www.clsnet.nl/mail.php
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 543
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