[29284] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 528 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Sun Jun 17 14:09:56 2007
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Sun, 17 Jun 2007 Volume: 11 Number: 528
Today's topics:
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem <eflorac@imaginet.fr>
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Re: could XML::Simple handling chinese character? <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
encrypted connection with Mail::Sender? <morfysster@gmail.com>
Re: For Loop <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Re: Generic Syntax highlighting module <tlviewer@VISTAyahoo.com>
How to motivate the use of Perl? felix.bonkatas@hushmail.com
Re: How to motivate the use of Perl? felix.bonkatas@hushmail.com
Re: perl and php krakle@visto.com
Re: perl and php <eflorac@imaginet.fr>
The Modernization of Emacs <xah@xahlee.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs <tburdick@gmail.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 08:11:04 -0700
From: Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <ne2dnUyXzoeT0ujbnZ2dnUVZ_oernZ2d@giganews.com>
Purl Gurl wrote:
> Kenetic wrote:
>> Purl Gurl wrote:
(snipped to correct a wording error)
> Right off, if your minutes will always be " x.5 " notation, this
> is, always 30 minutes, I would simply add 30 minutes to your original
> minutes, then adjust if this new minutes amount exceeds 60 minutes.
This should read,
"...minutes amount is or exceeds 60 minutes."
Exactly 60 minutes or greater.
--
Purl Gurl
--
"Then again what can you expect from a fat-assed, champagne swilling,
half-breed just off the Rez?"
- Joe Kline
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:59:15 GMT
From: "Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <nTcdi.5420$Fw5.4694@trndny02>
Kenetic wrote:
> On Jun 17, 1:47 am, "Mumia W." <paduille.4061.mumia.w
>> As the others have said, use already-made modules for this sort of
>> thing. The module writers have already worked out most of the
>> complexities.
>
> I'll most likely be unable to use any external modules. One of the
> constraints I have unfortunately.
Then good luck in dealing with the added/missing hour during the switch
to/from daylight saving time, of course adjusted to the proper locale.
jue
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 08:55:07 -0700
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <86r6oashic.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
>>>>> "Purl" == Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net> writes:
Purl> Larry Wall, Randal Schwartz, Joseph Hall, Brigitte Jellinek and others
Purl> like them, did not become masters of Perl through using modules.
That statement is incorrect. Please don't speak for me like that.
A large part of being a master is knowing the tool thoroughly. For Perl, part
of the "tool" is in fact the CPAN. Knowing what modules exist, and how to use
them, is part of the proper mastery of Perl.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 08:53:24 -0700
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <86vedmshl7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
>>>>> "Purl" == Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net> writes:
Purl> You are, again, running into convention problems. Convention is to
Purl> adjust time by hours, only, to determine a local time.
Almost correct. There are, in fact, timezones that vary by non-whole hours,
and places that use mean solar time instead.
Take a glance at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone>, noting the time
zones for such places as India, Burma, and the center of Australia.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:16:18 +0200
From: "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <f53tvb.140.1@news.isolution.nl>
Kenetic schreef:
> perl's mod doesn't work very well with fractions
<quote src="perlop">
Binary "%" computes the modulus of two numbers. Given
integer operands $a and $b: If $b is positive, then "$a %
$b" is $a minus the largest multiple of $b that is not
greater than $a. If $b is negative, then "$a % $b" is $a
minus the smallest multiple of $b that is not less than $a
(i.e. the result will be less than or equal to zero).
Note that when "use integer" is in scope, "%" gives you
direct access to the modulus operator as implemented by
your C compiler. This operator is not as well defined for
negative operands, but it will execute faster.
</quote>
Nothing is mentioned there about fractional behaviour. But I was never
surprised because *in my world*, "modulus" operates on integers. So
AFAIK, Perl's mod works perfectly with fractions.
--
Affijn, Ruud
"Gewoon is een tijger."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:27:12 +0200
From: Emmanuel Florac <eflorac@imaginet.fr>
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <pan.2007.06.17.16.27.10.487840@imaginet.fr>
Le Sun, 17 Jun 2007 07:52:20 -0700, Purl Gurl a écrit :
>
> Do you want to be known as a Perl Programmer or a Copy And Paste Baby?
This is preposterous. Just like saying "if you want to be a real C
programmer, don't use any existing library, not even libc".
To deserve the title of "programmer", you have to get the job
done, writing software that actually works. reinventing the wheel isn't
the right way to get things done...
--
A thing of beauty is a joy forever.
J. Keats.
Ah! Singe débotté, hisse un jouet fort et vert!
Marcel Bénabou.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:45:17 -0700
From: Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <S9idnTlNw72v7ujbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>
Emmanuel Florac wrote:
> Purl Gurl wrote:
>> Do you want to be known as a Perl Programmer or a Copy And Paste Baby?
> This is preposterous. Just like saying "if you want to be a real C
> programmer, don't use any existing library, not even libc".
No, your attitude is preposterous. Many of the functions of C
language includes are provided by perl core. Some suspect Perl
is an interface between a user and C core functions. Seems a
logical suspicion to me, very logical.
C core functions, such as IO and print, are not modules no
more than perl core functions. These are basic core functions
which enable C just as these basic functions enable Perl.
Those core functions are provided by libraries, which you
mistake for adjunct modules.
The suspicious probably would not be surprised to discover
perl core is written in C language.
There is a very distinct difference between core function
includes and adjunct modules which accessorize core functions.
Clearly you have yet to learn of this distinct difference.
> To deserve the title of "programmer", you have to get the job
> done, writing software that actually works. reinventing the wheel isn't
> the right way to get things done...
Your wheel is square. Do not reinvent your wheel! This wheel is
already invented, square, and is not to be improved!
You do not have a clue why your so popular "don't reinvent the wheel"
claim is so silly. Wait! What the Hades are Perl Porters doing coming
up with Perl 6 versions? This is reinventing the wheel!
Those stupid Perl Porters! How dare they reinvent the wheel.
Steve Brenner and Brigitte Jellinek created great and very popular
Perl libraries for read and parse functions. UC Berkeley still
promotes these styles of libraries. These useful libraries were
written long before Lincoln Stein stumbled into Perl.
Lincoln Stein staggers in, begins writing a Perl module based
directly upon Steve Brenner's work. Eventually, Stein renders
Brenner's work into a labyrinth Borg cube ship bloatware garbage
scowl, today known as the CGI.pm module.
Stein reinvented the wheel into a ten ton cube of garbage which
cannot roll over and play dead.
Stein is applauded for rendering a once sleek and fast wheel into
a slow cumbersome buggy monstrosity which has not a single wheel.
Stein reinvented the wheel and you folks hooray him, although he
destroyed a once perfectly usable wheel. You hooray him for his
reinventing the wheel and scream at us, "Don't reinvent the wheel."
Such rancid hypocrisy!
You and others shout, "Don't reinvent the wheel" while reinvention
is better known as beneficial "progress" least when reinvention is
performed by the talented and the intelligent.
Ha! Ha! Your lame claim about reinventing the wheel is a flat tire.
--
Purl Gurl
--
"Then again what can you expect from a fat-assed, champagne swilling,
half-breed just off the Rez?"
- Joe Kline
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:00:40 -0700
From: Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <dPmdnWPOG9N76-jbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com>
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>"Purl" == Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net> writes:
Your news reader is broken.
(Incorrect quoting corrected)
> Purl Gurl wrote:
>> Larry Wall, Randal Schwartz, Joseph Hall, Brigitte Jellinek and others
>> like them, did not become masters of Perl through using modules.
> That statement is incorrect. Please don't speak for me like that.
Ah, you are not a master of Perl programming and you have not been
around the Perl Community before modules came along.
* demure smile *
> A large part of being a master is knowing the tool thoroughly. For Perl, part
> of the "tool" is in fact the CPAN. Knowing what modules exist, and how to use
> them, is part of the proper mastery of Perl.
I know about a cello. I am a professional cellist. I can make my cello
weep, scream, cry, laugh and sing in voice which will bring you tears
to your eyes.
I sure as heck do not know how to build a cello.
Should I snap my chubby fingers and magically make all Perl modules
and all knowledge of Perl modules vanish, almost all Perl "programmers"
would no longer be able to program in Perl.
Those are not programmers, those are Copy And Paste Babies.
Knowledge of Perl modules, knowledge of how to use Perl modules,
using Perl modules, all are good.
Knowledge of how to program in Perl is much better.
--
Purl Gurl
--
"Then again what can you expect from a fat-assed, champagne swilling,
half-breed just off the Rez?"
- Joe Kline
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:05:15 -0700
From: Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Subject: Re: 12 hour clock and offset problem
Message-Id: <y-qdneALtaR96ujbnZ2dnUVZ_oernZ2d@giganews.com>
Jürgen Exner wrote:
> Kenetic wrote:
>> Mumia W. wrote
>>> As the others have said, use already-made modules for this sort of
>>> thing. The module writers have already worked out most of the
>>> complexities.
>> I'll most likely be unable to use any external modules. One of the
>> constraints I have unfortunately.
> Then good luck in dealing with the added/missing hour during the switch
> to/from daylight saving time, of course adjusted to the proper locale.
My presumption is you believe people cannot write Perl code which
performs the same functions as modules.
This is interesting. How do people write modules? Magic invisible ink?
--
Purl Gurl
--
"Then again what can you expect from a fat-assed, champagne swilling,
half-breed just off the Rez?"
- Joe Kline
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:03:01 +0200
From: "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Subject: Re: could XML::Simple handling chinese character?
Message-Id: <slrnf7aqa5.m1t.hjp-usenet2@zeno.hjp.at>
On 2007-06-17 08:09, Mumia W. <paduille.4061.mumia.w+nospam@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 06/17/2007 01:10 AM, havel.zhang wrote:
>> hi mirod:
>> when i changed chinese character with english word, it works fine.
>> my versions of perl is 5.8.8 .
>
> I also ran your program without problems on Perl 5.8.4 / Linux. You
> should enable a utf8 locale on your computer and tell Perl to use that
> encoding when reading from the file.
No, you should not (well, using a utf8 locale may be a good idea anyway,
but it doesn't have anything to do with his problem). Telling perl to
use a specific encoding when reading XML files is at best ineffectual,
or it may cause problems.
> When I tested your program, I first saved part1.xml to a file in utf8
> format;
Thus is obviously necessary as the XML file starts with
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
> then I copied your script to a file in utf8 format.
The script doesn't contain any non-ASCII characters so there is no
difference between ASCII format, Latin-1 format, UTF-8 format, etc.
> I also added the "encoding" pragma to tell Perl that the script was
> written in utf8.
The script is pure ASCII. Of course that means it's UTF-8, too, but it's
also a dozen other charsets which are supersets of ASCII.
> And my locale is currently set to utf8.
Irrelevant. XML files contain their own encoding. They *must* *not* be
read differently depending on the locale. If the XML declaration
contains encoding="utf-8", the file must be parsed as UTF-8, regardless
of the charset of the current locale. Since you can't know the encoding
of an XML file before parsing it, it is the responsibility of the XML
parser to determine the encoding.
> So there's no way for Perl to be unprepared to deal with utf8 encoded
> data on my system right now,
Nothing you described above "prepared your system to deal with utf8
encoded" XML files.
> and Chinese characters should be stored in either utf8 or gb2312
> files.
Or GB18030 or EUC-CN or whatever contains the necessary characters. It
is only necessary that the XML declaration matches the contents of the
file.
> I suspect your problem is encoding confusion. Either you don't have a
> suitable locale installed (e.g. utf8),
I don't think you can install perl 5.8.8 without support for UTF-8,
regardless of any system-specific locales.
> or you stored the file in one encoding (e.g. gb2312), but you're
> trying to read it in another encoding (utf8 ?).
The parser must read it in UTF-8 encoding since that's what the file
says it is. Your suspicion that the file really is in some other
encoding seems likely (especially since Havel posted in gb2312).
It's also possible that the parser used by XML::Simple is broken, but
judging from the error message it is XML::Parser which in turn uses
expat, so I think that's unlikely.
hp
--
_ | Peter J. Holzer | I know I'd be respectful of a pirate
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR | with an emu on his shoulder.
| | | hjp@hjp.at |
__/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | -- Sam in "Freefall"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:25:23 -0000
From: Morfys <morfysster@gmail.com>
Subject: encrypted connection with Mail::Sender?
Message-Id: <1182101123.934124.98730@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
Hi,
I'm trying to use Mail::Sender to send email using smtp.gmail.com, but
I get errors related to "StartTLS" when my script doesn't create a
secure connection to the smtp server. Is there a way to use
Mail::Sender to create encrypted connections? I've search the
documentation and online, and can't find much. Thanks very much in
advance.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:23:31 +0200
From: "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+news@isolution.nl>
Subject: Re: For Loop
Message-Id: <f53u8p.vs.1@news.isolution.nl>
Paul Lalli schreef:
> shapper:
>> { for ($s=0,$i=$row; $s<$c; $i+=($h+($s<$rm)), ++$s)
>
> [...] At the end of each
> iteration, it increments $s by 1, and adds $h to $i. If $s is less
> than $rm, it will add an aditional 1 to $i.
The behaviour of $s could well be undefined (un-guaranteed) there.
Because of the comma-operator, I would expect that the ++$s is done
*after* $i is updated.
--
Affijn, Ruud
"Gewoon is een tijger."
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jun 2007 17:25:31 GMT
From: Mark Pryor <tlviewer@VISTAyahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Generic Syntax highlighting module
Message-Id: <46756e8b$0$20586$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:33:03 +0000, Stephen O'D wrote:
> Guys,
>
> I am looking for a module that can syntax highlight lots of different
> types of source code so I can display it in a browser.
>
> I have tried installing Syntax::Highlight::Universal, which is based
> on the Colorer library, but it fails to compile for me and the module
> doesn't seem to be maintained any more.
>
> Any suggestions of a good module to use that supports many different
> languages?
>
For all things Perl, use PerlTidy.
Here's one of my scripts converted to html for browsing
http://www.tlviewer.org/crypto/DHBigInt.pl.html
--
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:31:36 -0700
From: felix.bonkatas@hushmail.com
Subject: How to motivate the use of Perl?
Message-Id: <1182101496.733180.299390@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
In what domains of web development is Perl preferrable to PHP, even
when developing from the ground up? Are people still using Perl for
CGI programming? Is Perl's place primarily in the backend? What about
using Perl for database functions, e.g. in conjunction with MySQL?
The thing is, I'm about to teach a course in Perl, to beginners who
already know a little PHP. I need to get them motivated. Also, I need
to think of a longer exercise, one where Perl's strenghts can be shown
and one where one doesn't constantly think: Couldn't that be done in
PHP?
Note that I don't need to be motivated. I've been using Perl for quite
some time, for system administration and backend stuff, and a little
as a programming language for writing PostgreSQL functions and
triggers. However, I've rarely used it for CGI programming.
- Felix
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:37:02 -0700
From: felix.bonkatas@hushmail.com
Subject: Re: How to motivate the use of Perl?
Message-Id: <1182101822.601374.308190@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 17, 7:31 pm, felix.bonka...@hushmail.com wrote:
> However, I've rarely used it for CGI programming.
Note that the focus of the course doesn't necessarily have to be on
CGI programming. Motivating Perl's use as a backend tool or in
conjunctions with databases would suffices. However, there should be
some relation to web programming.
What would also be interesting is an overview over famous web sites
where Perl is used in the frontend or the backend.
- Felix
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 08:37:03 -0700
From: krakle@visto.com
Subject: Re: perl and php
Message-Id: <1182094623.237267.96990@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 17, 12:12 am, asimsu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 14, 1:36 pm, kra...@visto.com wrote:
>
> > On Jun 12, 6:19 am, peter <p...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > > At one time, I did a bit of perl but now I see php alot. I was
> > > wondering what you guys thinks of the pros/cons of perl and php.
>
> > I am a Web Developer. It takes a lot more code in Perl than PHP to
> > accomplish simple tasks.
>
> Really ? I find them both fairly concise.
>
> Can you give an example perhaps ?
>
Using a database.
If you want to use Perl effectively to compete with PHP you have to
utilize hefty modules and make use of mod_perl.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:23:57 +0200
From: Emmanuel Florac <eflorac@imaginet.fr>
Subject: Re: perl and php
Message-Id: <pan.2007.06.17.16.23.57.256440@imaginet.fr>
Le Sun, 17 Jun 2007 08:37:03 -0700, krakle a écrit :
>
> If you want to use Perl effectively to compete with PHP you have to
> utilize hefty modules and make use of mod_perl.
Not necessarily mod_perl. You may prefer Fast_CGI, for instance.
--
In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 08:13:20 -0700
From: Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org>
Subject: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <1182093200.598418.218620@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
[this post is a excerpt from
The Modernization of Emacs, Xah Lee, 2006-04 at
http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization.html
]
The Modernization of Emacs
----------------------------------------
THE PROBLEM
Emacs is a great editor. It is perhaps the most powerful and most
versatile text editor. And, besides text editing, it also serves as a
email application, newsgroup application, ftp application, irc
application, web browser, shell interface, file management
application, programable calculator, calendar and personal info
management application, lisp language system, among other things.
These seemingly wild functionalities are employed in production daily
by a significant number of programers around the world. Some calls
emacs as a Operating System as a joke. (Technically it does not
qualify because a OS implies management of hardware.).
If emacs is such a great and powerful text editor why almost nobody
knows about it? Vast majority of people who need to write will be more
than happy to use editors other than emacs. Ask a Microsoft Windows
user. She'll be more than happy to use Microsoft Word=E2=86=97. If he doesn=
't
have MS Word, he'll use NotePad=E2=86=97 or WordPad=E2=86=97. If he is a pr=
ogramer,
most will be more than happy to use any of other graphical editors on
the Windows platform or any of the Integrated development
environment=E2=86=97. Same is true on other operating systems, and new edit=
ors
spring up here and there even though they don't have as much power or
flexibility as emacs. For example, there are NEdit, JEdit, Eclipse,
Xcode=E2=86=97 , or the various associated with languages or third party
language software, such as Visual Basic or Borland C++.
Many reasons can be made out of this. For example, emacs is not
bundled on popular operating systems such as Windows or Mac, which are
used by some 99% of computer users worldwide. Windows and Mac both
have simple text editors bundled that will satisfy majority of
computer users, which are non-professional computer users. (NotePad
and WordPad on Windows, TextEdit=E2=86=97 on Mac) For the few professional
computer users, a majority will need a easy to use, yet powerful
editor that also does styled text, formatting, and sundry light
publishing needs such as table layout, simple line graphics drawing,
embedded images, math formulas. They will choose and adopt Microsoft
Word for their needs. The tiny percentage that might be interested in
emacs, are programers. Even among professional programers, a majority
shy away from emacs.
A major difficulty among programers who do not use or like emacs, is
that emacs's user interface is rather esoteric, involving arcane
terminologies and keystrokes. This is in sharp contrast to the
thousands of software applications used today, where their User
Interface are similar and familiar to today's computer users.
----------------------------------------
THE COMMON USER INTERFACE
The following is a excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Common User
Access=E2=86=97:
CUA was a detailed specification and set strict rules about how
applications should look and function. Its aim was in part to bring
about harmony between MS-DOS applications, which until then had
implemented totally different user interfaces.
Examples:
* In WordPerfect, the command to open a file was [F7], [3].
* In Lotus 1-2-3, a file was opened with [/] (to open the menus),
[W] (for Workspace), [R] (for Retrieve).
* In Microsoft Word, a file was opened with [Esc] (to open the
menus), [T] (for Transfer), [L] (for Load).
* In WordStar, it was [Ctrl]+[K]+[O].
* In Emacs, a file was opened with [Ctrl]+[x] followed by [Ctrl]+
[f] (for find-file).
Some programs used [Esc] to cancel an action, some used it to complete
one; WordPerfect used it to repeat a character. Some programs used
[End] to go to the end of a line, some used it to complete filling in
a form. [F1] was often help but in WordPerfect that was [F3]. [Ins]
sometimes toggled between overtype and inserting characters, but some
programs used it for =E2=80=9Cpaste=E2=80=9D.
Thus, every program had to be learned individually and its complete
user interface memorized. It was a sign of expertise to have learned
the UIs of dozens of applications, since a novice user facing a new
program would find their existing knowledge of a similar application
absolutely no use whatsoever.
----------------------------------------
SIMPLE CHANGES
In the following, i describe some critical changes that are also very
easy to fix in emacs. If emacs officially adopt these changes, i think
it will make a lot people, at least programers, like emacs and choose
emacs as their text editor.
* Change the keyboard shortcut of Copy & Paste to ctrl-c and ctrl-
v as to be the same with all modern applications.
* Change the undo behavior so that there is a Undo and Redo, as
the same with all modern applications.
* Get rid of the *scratch* buffer.
* Change the terminology of =E2=80=9Ckill=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ccut=E2=
=80=9D, and =E2=80=9Cyank=E2=80=9D to
=E2=80=9Cpaste=E2=80=9D.
* Change the terminology of Meta key to Alt.
* Make longlines-mode the default editor behavior for any file.
Things emacs should do now, even though it eventually will do.
* When opening a HTML document, automatically provide highlighting
of HTML, CSS, and Javascript codes. Similarly for other multi-language
files such as PHP, JSP, et al. This behavior must be automatic without
requiring user to customize emacs.
Possible Documentation Change Proposals
* Reduce the use of the word =E2=80=9Cbuffer=E2=80=9D in the emacs docu=
mentation.
Call it =E2=80=9Copened file=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cunsaved document=E2=80=9D.
* Switch the terminology of Window and Frame so it is more
standard. That is, Emacs's =E2=80=9CWindow=E2=80=9D should be called Panes =
or Frames.
While Emacs's =E2=80=9CFrame=E2=80=9D should be termed Window.
* Change the terminology of keybinding to =E2=80=9Ckeyboard shortcut=E2=
=80=9D in
emacs documentation. Use the term keybinding or binding only in a
technical context, such as in elisp documentation.
Xah
xah@xahlee.org
=E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:36:12 -0000
From: "Thomas F. Burdick" <tburdick@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs
Message-Id: <1182098172.305305.142180@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
For the love of dogs, Xah, try to keep up. Aquamacs is an Emacs
distribution that, which not there yet, is at least half way between
"classic" Emacs and a modern Mac UI. You sound ridiculous, like if
you were complaining about Windows not being really graphical, based
on experience with Windows-386 in the era when 95 was already around.
On Jun 17, 5:13=C2=A0pm, Xah Lee <x...@xahlee.org> wrote:
> [this post is a excerpt from
> The Modernization of Emacs, Xah Lee, 2006-04 athttp://xahlee.org/emacs/mo=
dernization.html
> ]
>
> The Modernization of Emacs
>
> ----------------------------------------
> THE PROBLEM
>
> Emacs is a great editor. It is perhaps the most powerful and most
> versatile text editor. And, besides text editing, it also serves as a
> email application, newsgroup application, ftp application, irc
> application, web browser, shell interface, file management
> application, programable calculator, calendar and personal info
> management application, lisp language system, among other things.
> These seemingly wild functionalities are employed in production daily
> by a significant number of programers around the world. Some calls
> emacs as a Operating System as a joke. (Technically it does not
> qualify because a OS implies management of hardware.).
>
> If emacs is such a great and powerful text editor why almost nobody
> knows about it? Vast majority of people who need to write will be more
> than happy to use editors other than emacs. Ask a Microsoft Windows
> user. She'll be more than happy to use Microsoft Word=E2=86=97. If he doe=
sn't
> have MS Word, he'll use NotePad=E2=86=97 or WordPad=E2=86=97. If he is a =
programer,
> most will be more than happy to use any of other graphical editors on
> the Windows platform or any of the Integrated development
> environment=E2=86=97. Same is true on other operating systems, and new ed=
itors
> spring up here and there even though they don't have as much power or
> flexibility as emacs. For example, there are NEdit, JEdit, Eclipse,
> Xcode=E2=86=97 , or the various associated with languages or third party
> language software, such as Visual Basic or Borland C++.
>
> Many reasons can be made out of this. For example, emacs is not
> bundled on popular operating systems such as Windows or Mac, which are
> used by some 99% of computer users worldwide. Windows and Mac both
> have simple text editors bundled that will satisfy majority of
> computer users, which are non-professional computer users. (NotePad
> and WordPad on Windows, TextEdit=E2=86=97 on Mac) For the few professional
> computer users, a majority will need a easy to use, yet powerful
> editor that also does styled text, formatting, and sundry light
> publishing needs such as table layout, simple line graphics drawing,
> embedded images, math formulas. They will choose and adopt Microsoft
> Word for their needs. The tiny percentage that might be interested in
> emacs, are programers. Even among professional programers, a majority
> shy away from emacs.
>
> A major difficulty among programers who do not use or like emacs, is
> that emacs's user interface is rather esoteric, involving arcane
> terminologies and keystrokes. This is in sharp contrast to the
> thousands of software applications used today, where their User
> Interface are similar and familiar to today's computer users.
>
> ----------------------------------------
> THE COMMON USER INTERFACE
>
> The following is a excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Common User
> Access=E2=86=97:
>
> CUA was a detailed specification and set strict rules about how
> applications should look and function. Its aim was in part to bring
> about harmony between MS-DOS applications, which until then had
> implemented totally different user interfaces.
>
> Examples:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * In WordPerfect, the command to open a file was [F7], [3].
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * In Lotus 1-2-3, a file was opened with [/] (to open the m=
enus),
> [W] (for Workspace), [R] (for Retrieve).
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * In Microsoft Word, a file was opened with [Esc] (to open =
the
> menus), [T] (for Transfer), [L] (for Load).
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * In WordStar, it was [Ctrl]+[K]+[O].
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * In Emacs, a file was opened with [Ctrl]+[x] followed by [=
Ctrl]+
> [f] (for find-file).
>
> Some programs used [Esc] to cancel an action, some used it to complete
> one; WordPerfect used it to repeat a character. Some programs used
> [End] to go to the end of a line, some used it to complete filling in
> a form. [F1] was often help but in WordPerfect that was [F3]. [Ins]
> sometimes toggled between overtype and inserting characters, but some
> programs used it for =E2=80=9Cpaste=E2=80=9D.
>
> Thus, every program had to be learned individually and its complete
> user interface memorized. It was a sign of expertise to have learned
> the UIs of dozens of applications, since a novice user facing a new
> program would find their existing knowledge of a similar application
> absolutely no use whatsoever.
>
> ----------------------------------------
> SIMPLE CHANGES
>
> In the following, i describe some critical changes that are also very
> easy to fix in emacs. If emacs officially adopt these changes, i think
> it will make a lot people, at least programers, like emacs and choose
> emacs as their text editor.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Change the keyboard shortcut of Copy & Paste to ctrl-c an=
d ctrl-
> v as to be the same with all modern applications.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Change the undo behavior so that there is a Undo and Redo=
, as
> the same with all modern applications.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Get rid of the *scratch* buffer.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Change the terminology of =E2=80=9Ckill=E2=80=9D to =E2=
=80=9Ccut=E2=80=9D, and =E2=80=9Cyank=E2=80=9D to
> =E2=80=9Cpaste=E2=80=9D.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Change the terminology of Meta key to Alt.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Make longlines-mode the default editor behavior for any f=
ile.
>
> Things emacs should do now, even though it eventually will do.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * When opening a HTML document, automatically provide highl=
ighting
> of HTML, CSS, and Javascript codes. Similarly for other multi-language
> files such as PHP, JSP, et al. This behavior must be automatic without
> requiring user to customize emacs.
>
> Possible Documentation Change Proposals
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Reduce the use of the word =E2=80=9Cbuffer=E2=80=9D in th=
e emacs documentation.
> Call it =E2=80=9Copened file=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cunsaved document=E2=80=
=9D.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Switch the terminology of Window and Frame so it is more
> standard. That is, Emacs's =E2=80=9CWindow=E2=80=9D should be called Pane=
s or Frames.
> While Emacs's =E2=80=9CFrame=E2=80=9D should be termed Window.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Change the terminology of keybinding to =E2=80=9Ckeyboard=
shortcut=E2=80=9D in
> emacs documentation. Use the term keybinding or binding only in a
> technical context, such as in elisp documentation.
>
> =C2=A0 Xah
> =C2=A0 x...@xahlee.org
> =E2=88=91http://xahlee.org/
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 528
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