[29096] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 340 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Sun Apr 15 03:14:14 2007
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 00:14:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Sun, 15 Apr 2007 Volume: 11 Number: 340
Today's topics:
Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007) <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007) <tadmc@augustmail.com>
Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007) <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007) <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007) <edMbj@aes-intl.com>
Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007) <uri@stemsystems.com>
Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007) <edMbj@aes-intl.com>
Re: What does 'grep -M' do? <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Re: What does 'grep -M' do? <someone@example.com>
Re: What does 'grep -M' do? <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: What does 'grep -M' do? <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Re: What does 'grep -M' do? <tadmc@augustmail.com>
Re: Where did cgi-bin go? krakle@visto.com
Re: Which is the best FREE forum? krakle@visto.com
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:29:47 GMT
From: "Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007)
Message-Id: <fefUh.2010$uF1.635@trndny04>
Uri Guttman wrote:
>>>>>> "MD" == Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it> writes:
>
>> 'How profoundly rude of you!' ne 'How profoundly rude you are!';
>
> michele, please don't try to teach such good logical english! you
> don't speak it natively! :)
Unfortunately my observation over the past 10+ years has been that all too
often non-native speakers care more about correct and logical use of the
language while native speakers often are quite sloppy. In particlar those
who grew up learning Americanese have a tendency to bastardize the English
language to a point where it is impossible to decode the intended meaning of
a sentence.
"England and America are two countries separated by a common language."
jue
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:37:34 -0500
From: Tad McClellan <tadmc@augustmail.com>
Subject: Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007)
Message-Id: <slrnf233ve.eg.tadmc@tadmc30.august.net>
Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it> wrote:
> I've never felt insulted or offended,
> by the regulars that is.
Your feet stink!
--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
tadmc@augustmail.com Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 19:03:17 -0700
From: Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Subject: Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007)
Message-Id: <8OmdnZXrXMZ3GrzbnZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@giganews.com>
Jürgen Exner wrote:
> Uri Guttman wrote:
>>>>>>>"MD" == Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it> writes:
>>> 'How profoundly rude of you!' ne 'How profoundly rude you are!';
>> michele, please don't try to teach such good logical english! you
>> don't speak it natively! :)
> Unfortunately my observation over the past 10+ years has been that all too
> often non-native speakers care more about correct and logical use of the
> language while native speakers often are quite sloppy. In particlar those
> who grew up learning Americanese have a tendency to bastardize the English
> language to a point where it is impossible to decode the intended meaning of
> a sentence.
This is interesting. My native tongue is not English. Nonetheless, I deliver
my message with exceptional clarity and usually direct and to the point.
My observation is a majority of native English speakers here exhibit
language skills at or below high school level. There are some regulars
here I qualify as basic functional illiterates.
Language skills quickly divulge relative intelligence level of both
speakers and writers, setting aside non-native speakers learning a
specific language. You are what you speak.
Relative intelligence derived through observed language skills is a
reflection of Perl skills as well. A good speaker will generally have
good Perl skills. Lesser language skills indicates lesser Perl skills.
Many regulars here are Perl language lawyers but upon speaking, rather
noticeable those regulars are not good Perl programmers. Knowing the
language of Perl inside and out is good. An inability to effectively
put the language of Perl to good use, is clearly not good.
Programming language lawyers are rarely good programmers.
Purl Gurl
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 02:41:47 GMT
From: "A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Subject: Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007)
Message-Id: <Xns9912E6E1BE398asu1cornelledu@127.0.0.1>
Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it> wrote in
news:4ip2231h8us0hlp0qffb28ekbkimm4j65s@4ax.com:
> On 14 Apr 2007 14:59:15 -0700, "Robert Hicks" <sigzero@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Nice area! Have fun! No, seriously, eh!
>>>
>>
>>I thought Ruby was the "I have FUN when I program" language? : )
>
> I didn't know, but I felt compelled to search and it seems so!
> Unfortunately I don't know it, and I say "unfortunately" because from
> all accounts I've read it seems very interesting.
Every few months, I feel motivated to learn Ruby. But then I find that
the standard tutorials/books are written in a silly way. They remind me
of the BASIC tutorials that I tried to follow when I was 11 (in a
Turkish newspaper column a long, long time ago. I had a ZX81 then). I
soon gave up trying and instead learned Z80 assembly language ;-)
I must admit, I have been spoiled by the quality of Perl documentation
(and, of course, CPAN).
Don't get me wrong, a lot of people like Ruby. I just haven't been able
to motivate myself to get past the simple stuff.
Sinan
--
A. Sinan Unur <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
(remove .invalid and reverse each component for email address)
comp.lang.perl.misc guidelines on the WWW:
http://augustmail.com/~tadmc/clpmisc/clpmisc_guidelines.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:02:05 -0700
From: Ed Jay <edMbj@aes-intl.com>
Subject: Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007)
Message-Id: <f47323tj4bobtt83857pth8eba8k6h9r38@4ax.com>
Uri Guttman scribed:
>>>>>> "EJ" == Ed Jay <edMbj@aes-intl.com> writes:
>
> EJ> If bad programming makes a person a horrible person, I'm in much more
> EJ> trouble than you are.
>
>you don't get it. it isn't bad programming that makes one bad. it is
>being a bad programmer who either doesn't know it (e.g. moronzilla) or
>doesn't want to get better and try to learn from those who are good
>programmers.
I get it, but I was responding to another's comment. You're correct.
> and how do you judge the good coders? you look at a
>community of them and see how they are ranked there. just like chess
>ranking scores or scholarly published articles and who references them,
>the perl community has coders of many skill ranges. most of the regulars
>here or on other forums have proven their perl skills and knowledge and
>earned their respect and ranking (regardless of their tone in most
>cases).
This is how I would rate top coders or coders in academia, but not coders in
general.
>no one respects moronzilla is the point. you don't have the
>skills to even judge that and you think we are crazy for denigrating its
>skills.
When did I suggest you were crazy for denigrating her skills? If anything,
after reading a lengthy archive I'm led to question your sanity for having
continued to respond to her at all. Notwithstanding her expertise or lack
thereof with Perl, there's no question you've been trolled; however, some of
it seems retaliatory in nature.
>
> EJ> I'm known for having a wonderful sense of humor. You ought to see my code.
>
>coding isn't humorous. look at the lost mars probe due to a coding
>error. funny, ha ha. want funny code in your medical equipment or
>accurate code that was coded by a jerk you don't like? i know what i
>will buy.
There you go again putting words into my mouth. Who said I thought anyone
was a jerk, or that I didn't like someone? I didn't. Puhleeze, do us each a
favor...
>
>you used the word luck. that is the perfect choice for getting useful
>help from moronzilla.
Then, I had good luck, 'cause as I've reiterated...the advice I received
helped me.
> even a broken clock is right twice a
>day. moronzilla can answer some trivial questions correctly once in a
>while. its lack of depth of understanding programming in general and
>perl in specifics is astounding. ask i to analyze some algorithms
>using O(N) notation. ask it how to write a protocol. ask it how to do
>anything beyond kiddie text munging with substr. do you ever see it
>involved in threads outside its little skill set? that is what you
>should be looking at.
>
I'm pretty sure I understand and appreciate where your hostility is coming
from. But, I'm confused why an intelligent guy like you would allow someone
you detest so and whose opinion you think so lowly of to push your buttons.
You ask her to analyze an algorithm and she doesn't respond. Boom...you go
ballistic and she laughs and calls you names. I'm going to do you a favor
and offer you some assistance...read what I post below my signature and read
<http://www.edbjay.com/unskilled.pdf>. Hopefully, you too will get it.
Ed Jay
TAKING OFFENSE (By Mary Baker Eddy)
There is immense wisdom in the old proverb, "He that is slow to anger is
better than the mighty." Hannah More said, "If I wished to punish my enemy,
I should make him hate somebody."
To punish ourselves for others' faults, is superlative folly. The mental
arrow shot from another's bow is so practically harmless, unless our own
thought barb it. It is our pride that makes another's criticism rankle, our
self-will that makes another's deed offensive, our egotism that feels hurt
by another's self-assertion. Well may we feel wounded by our own faults; but
we can hardly afford to be miserable for the faults of others.
A courtier told Constantine that a mob had broken the head of his statue
with stones. The emperor lifted his hands to his head, saying, "It is very
surprising, but I don't feel hurt in the least."
We should remember that the world is wide; that there are a thousand million
different human wills, opinions, ambitions, tastes, and loves; that each
person has a different history, constitution, culture, character, from all
the rest; that human life is the work, the play, the ceaseless action and
reaction upon each other of these different atoms. Then, we should go forth
into life with the smallest expectations, but with the largest patience;
with a keen relish for and appreciation of everything beautiful, great, and
good, but with a temper so genial that the friction of the world shall not
wear upon our sensibilities; with an equanimity so settled that no passing
breath nor accidental disturbance shall agitate or ruffle it; with a charity
broad enough to cover the whole world's evil, and sweet enough to neutralize
what is bitter in it,—determined not to be offended when no wrong is meant,
nor even when it is, unless the offense be against God.
Nothing short of our own errors should offend us. He who can willfully
attempt to injure another, is an object of pity rather than of resentment;
while it is a question in my mind, whether there is enough of a flatterer, a
fool, or a liar, to offend a whole-souled person.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 00:34:30 -0400
From: Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
Subject: Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007)
Message-Id: <x7fy72b6i1.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "EJ" == Ed Jay <edMbj@aes-intl.com> writes:
EJ> I'm pretty sure I understand and appreciate where your hostility
EJ> is coming from. But, I'm confused why an intelligent guy like you
EJ> would allow someone you detest so and whose opinion you think so
EJ> lowly of to push your buttons. You ask her to analyze an
EJ> algorithm and she doesn't respond. Boom...you go ballistic and she
EJ> laughs and calls you names. I'm going to do you a favor and offer
EJ> you some assistance...read what I post below my signature and read
EJ> <http://www.edbjay.com/unskilled.pdf>. Hopefully, you too will get
EJ> it.
simple. i care about perl and having people learn perl well. it posts
stupid and wrong code and disparages the perl community with its
blatherings. i don't get my buttons pushed as much as stand up to it and
hopefully make sure others (like yourself) don't get suckered in by its
trolling. call it defense of this newsgroup against the forces of
moronic and delusional posters. sometimes it get dirty but the job has
to be done.
EJ> Ed Jay
EJ> There is immense wisdom in the old proverb, "He that is slow to
EJ> anger is better than the mighty." Hannah More said, "If I wished
EJ> to punish my enemy, I should make him hate somebody."
oh, i don't hate moronzilla. i hate what it stands for. i am appalled
that my chosen profession is so easy to enter with so little actual
skill. you wouldn't hire a doctor or lawyer with the level of skills you
see in newbies or moronzilla. and too many of them work and screw things
up and i am brought it to help clean up the mess. better to hire someone
who knows what they are doing to begin with than cheap kiddies who are
always over their heads. that is what i despise.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 23:50:49 -0700
From: Ed Jay <edMbj@aes-intl.com>
Subject: Re: Top Turds of comp.lang.perl.misc (2007)
Message-Id: <crg323hq6pmi3oma7ub82b07m81uoelqk8@4ax.com>
Uri Guttman scribed:
>>>>>> "EJ" == Ed Jay <edMbj@aes-intl.com> writes:
> EJ> I'm pretty sure I understand and appreciate where your hostility
> EJ> is coming from...why
>
>simple. i care about perl and having people learn perl well. it posts
>stupid and wrong code and disparages the perl community with its
>blatherings. i don't get my buttons pushed as much as stand up to it and
>hopefully make sure others (like yourself) don't get suckered in by its
>trolling. call it defense of this newsgroup against the forces of
>moronic and delusional posters. sometimes it get dirty but the job has
>to be done.
You do the job well. :-)
>
> EJ> There is immense wisdom in the old proverb, "He that is slow to
> EJ> anger is better than the mighty." Hannah More said, "If I wished
> EJ> to punish my enemy, I should make him hate somebody."
>
>oh, i don't hate moronzilla. i hate what it stands for. i am appalled
>that my chosen profession is so easy to enter with so little actual
>skill.
Hatred is hatred and is counter-productive. Appalled is appropriate.
> you wouldn't hire a doctor or lawyer with the level of skills you
>see in newbies or moronzilla. and too many of them work and screw things
>up and i am brought it to help clean up the mess.
I would think that for many programmers, the more there is to clean up the
better it is. Income wise. That said, I have no idea what the market is
these days for Perl programmers, other than I don't see Perl mentioned as
qualification criteria for web developer jobs (My wife's occupation. I see
the ads.)
>better to hire someone
>who knows what they are doing to begin with than cheap kiddies who are
>always over their heads. that is what i despise.
>
I agree, except for cases like mine. I'm doing this because I enjoy doing
it. I know that I'm over my head, but I'm enjoying learning. My scripts are
pretty simple and apparently my code structure resembles C. I don't use
'strict' or 'my' or 'our.' But my scripts do as I want them to do, so I'm
temporarily happy. Like you, I'd much prefer perfection; however, I'm forced
to settle for function before beauty.
Thank you for the warning.
--
Ed Jay (remove 'M' to respond by email)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:19:26 -0700
From: Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Subject: Re: What does 'grep -M' do?
Message-Id: <6ICdnXeA6_I-4LzbnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@giganews.com>
grocery_stocker wrote:
(snipped)
> # get files older than three days
> my @files = grep -M > 3, readdir $dh;
> What does grep -M do? Is this a perl option for grep? I don't see this
> option when I look up grep on the unix man pages. I tried searching
> google and found nothing.
Grep is a core process which behaves much like looping
through an array. Grep will "look" through a list of
things. In your code example, grep looks at a list
files which are found in a directory.
This -M is a switch which invokes another core process
which "looks" at dates of file, in this case, for most
systems, the last Modified time: M - modified. An example
is you create a text file on April 1, 2007 year. A week
later, you edit your file and save. Your Modified time
is April 8, 2007 year, one week later.
In your example code, > 3 states "greater than 3 days old"
which is used by grep as an expression to be tested if true
or false.
-M > 3 file is modified more than three days past, true or false?
To summarize, grep looks at a list of files, checks each
file for a modified date greater than 3 days old, creates
a list on the fly, then returns a list of those files, all
of which are more than three days old.
Purl Gurl
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:30:58 GMT
From: "John W. Krahn" <someone@example.com>
Subject: Re: What does 'grep -M' do?
Message-Id: <mffUh.2582$VF5.434@edtnps82>
grocery_stocker wrote:
> The following code is taken from
> http://groups.google.com/group/perl.beginners/browse_thread/thread/c1b0afccf5fffccf/?hl=en#
Since I posted that I guess I should answer. :-)
> # open the current directory
> opendir my $dh, '.' or die "Cannot open '.' $!";
>
> # get files older than three days
> my @files = grep -M > 3, readdir $dh;
>
> closedir $dh;
>
> for my $file ( @files ) {
> rename $file, "history/$file" or die "Cannot move '$file' $!";
> }
>
>
> What does grep
perldoc -f grep
> -M do?
perldoc -f -M
John
--
Perl isn't a toolbox, but a small machine shop where you can special-order
certain sorts of tools at low cost and in short order. -- Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:31:38 GMT
From: "Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What does 'grep -M' do?
Message-Id: <_ffUh.2012$uF1.1271@trndny04>
grocery_stocker wrote:
> # get files older than three days
> my @files = grep -M > 3, readdir $dh;
>
> What does grep -M do?
perldoc -f -M
jue
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:36:27 -0700
From: Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net>
Subject: Re: What does 'grep -M' do?
Message-Id: <QcKdnSmKR4kCHLzbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com>
Purl Gurl wrote:
> grocery_stocker wrote:
(snipped - read thread for full context)
>> # get files older than three days
>> my @files = grep -M > 3, readdir $dh;
>> What does grep -M do? Is this a perl option for grep? I don't see this
> To summarize, grep looks at a list of files, checks each
> file for a modified date greater than 3 days old, creates
> a list on the fly, then returns a list of those files, all
> of which are more than three days old.
A unique topic, here.
Grep is very useful but has limits. For small to medium size
lists, such as an array, grep works very well. However, if a
list is large to very large, grep becomes very inefficient
and is not a good choice.
Grep cannot be "told" when to stop looking or searching.
A typical Perl loop can be "told" when to stop.
An example. You have a very large array and want to find a
single element which is unique from all other elements.
This example element is located in the middle of your array.
You can use grep to find this element, for almost all cases.
However, if you want to grep to stop upon finding this element,
you cannot do this. Grep will find your element then continue
searching until list end. You know this is a unique element
and know there is no need to continue searching once found.
Grep fails for this type of case example, fails in a sense
grep will keep running when not needed.
A Perl looping mechanism can be coded to stop upon finding
your unique element with a "last" statement; you can exit
your loop or searching mechanism. This lends to efficiency
by being able to end a process when no longer needed.
Grep does not have a "stop" mechanism. A Perl looping
mechanism does have a "stop" mechanism.
This is important when efficiency is important, and efficiency
is always important.
Purl Gurl
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 21:42:01 -0500
From: Tad McClellan <tadmc@augustmail.com>
Subject: Re: What does 'grep -M' do?
Message-Id: <slrnf2347p.eg.tadmc@tadmc30.august.net>
grocery_stocker <cdalten@gmail.com> wrote:
> What does grep -M do?
perldoc -f grep
perldoc -f -M
--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
tadmc@augustmail.com Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: 14 Apr 2007 23:48:59 -0700
From: krakle@visto.com
Subject: Re: Where did cgi-bin go?
Message-Id: <1176619738.991864.188150@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 13, 6:43 pm, Milagro wrote:
> I know perl quite well and was going to use it to write some new web
> applications but I'm wondering now what I need to re-learn regarding
> the good-old cgi-bin directory.
>
In the early days the "cgi-bin" was the ONLY directory where you could
execute CGI scripts from. In fact, CGI scripts were the only type of
executables that existed.
Times have changed. Most servers are configured to execute CGI scripts
whereever! More importantly, CGI is DEAD. It's more productive and
effective to use methods utilize caching so your script doesn't have
to compile for every request. It obviously makes more sense to compile
once if you have 1,000,000 requests than it does to compile 1 million
times.
Those who still use Perl use mod_perl (if they can). If you choose to
use CGI (for whatever weird reason), you can place those scripts in
any directory. The CGI-BIN isn't needed anymore.
------------------------------
Date: 14 Apr 2007 23:42:09 -0700
From: krakle@visto.com
Subject: Re: Which is the best FREE forum?
Message-Id: <1176619329.457256.181110@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 13, 11:37 pm, qoo1...@toqm.com wrote:
> http://support.forumgogo.com More powerful than the phpbb
> This is a great site that is completely free, and can make some cool
> forums, here's an example of one, you can make your own topic, polls,
> and replies etc, and you can have an accout for every member. This
> next link is an example of a forum made from invisionfree.http://support.forumgogo.com
At least have it be written in Perl...............
------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 340
**************************************
