[28052] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 9416 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Sat Jul 1 18:10:14 2006
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 15:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Sat, 1 Jul 2006 Volume: 10 Number: 9416
Today's topics:
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com>
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com>
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com>
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <sherm@Sherm-Pendleys-Computer.local>
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl applicat <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Re: test value <shane@weasel.is-a-geek.net>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 2006 11:53:46 -0700
From: "Bob" <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <1151780026.807829.299960@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> Perl/TK is a very professional framework.
Sinan, Perl and TK are languages. An IDE, on the other hand, is a
framework.
This is plain English! Let us not disagree on it!
Bob
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 2006 12:07:45 -0700
From: "Bob" <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <1151780865.238143.320140@h44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Re: John Bokma
> AFAIK, this is just possible. Another option, if you want to go the Perl
> way, might be wxWindows/wxWidgets. I have little experience with Tk, but
> do know that wx has support for tables/spreadsheet constructs in a Window.
Now this is a good news!
> > Anyway... PAR sounds good. I wonder how big my .exe would be, if it is
> > portable,
>
> AFAIK you have to make a version for each platform, since perl itself is
> not portable. (perl, not Perl)
...what would be the difference between "perl" and "Perl"?
> > and if the source code would show up in it.
>
> Yes, but if reverse engineering is an issue, you probably shouldn't
> release the program :-)
I spent ten years to design an algorithm that I would rather not get
stolen
in ten minutes by reading the .exe. I appreciate your humor, but things
are sad in real life. You invest a lot of time (and thus money) in
something,
then someone walks in and takes it away from you. I am not Bill
Gates...
> >>An IDE is just a fancy knife. You have to provide the mustard, and do
> >>the cutting :-)
> >
> > Think about coding in windows for an application that must now run in
> > solaris!
>
> Java, and maybe C# (MONO).
Yes...
> > The IDE
> > is an attempt to automate this work reliably. Just code once, and get
> > the ports for free.
>
> You're mistaken.
No, I was hoping... ;-)
> > The alternative is Java, but I want a swift application... Java is too
> > hungry for resources.
>
> Depends a lot on the programmer. It seems that a lot of Java programmers
> mistake garbage collection and Swing for a free programmer that comes with
> the language.
I did not get that one.
Bob
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 2006 12:14:02 -0700
From: "Bob" <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <1151781242.666303.21520@h44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Re: Sherm Pendley wrote:
>> Framework is synonymous for an Integrated Development Environment,
>
> No, it is not. Framework is synonymous for a collection of one or more
> libraries. You can (and I often do) use various frameworks with plain old
> make files - no IDE needed.
OK, I understand now.
> An IDE is an Integrated Development Environment. Editor, debugger, compiler
> (if one is needed) all in one environment.
>
> Some IDEs are made to support specific frameworks - Visual Studio and Xcode
> come to mind. Other IDEs, such as Eclipse and Emacs, are language- and
> framework-agnostic.
>
> There are also products like Visual Basic and Delphi where the IDE and frame-
> work happen to be delivered in the same package, and rather tightly bound to
> one another. That has no bearing on the definition of the terms, it's just a
> decision by the author to package the two pieces together and market the
> result as a single product.
OK. I still think it is a linguistic adventure, but I am happy to
acknowledge
the IDE vs framework slang if this helps to identify them with
precision.
Bob
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 2006 19:16:59 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <Xns97F3914A78D90castleamber@130.133.1.4>
"Bob" <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Perl/TK is a very professional framework.
>
> Sinan, Perl and TK are languages. An IDE, on the other hand, is a
> framework.
> This is plain English! Let us not disagree on it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework
Feel free to fix it.
--
John Bokma Freelance software developer
&
Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 2006 20:00:42 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <Xns97F398B3CB52Acastleamber@130.133.1.4>
"Bob" <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Re: John Bokma
...
> ...what would be the difference between "perl" and "Perl"?
Perl is the language, perl is the executable.
> I spent ten years to design an algorithm that I would rather not get
> stolen
> in ten minutes by reading the .exe. I appreciate your humor,
I was not joking. You can protect your algorithm with a patent though, but
never by obfuscating.
>> > The alternative is Java, but I want a swift application... Java is
>> > too hungry for resources.
>>
>> Depends a lot on the programmer. It seems that a lot of Java
>> programmers mistake garbage collection and Swing for a free
>> programmer that comes with the language.
>
> I did not get that one.
There are quite some programmers who think garbage collection etc. means
that they don't have to think anymore.
--
John Bokma Freelance software developer
&
Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 2006 20:02:47 GMT
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <Xns97F3990E2A327castleamber@130.133.1.4>
"Bob" <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com> wrote:
> OK. I still think it is a linguistic adventure, but I am happy to
> acknowledge
> the IDE vs framework slang if this helps to identify them with
> precision.
Eclipse is an IDE, and often referred to as a framework as well (because
you can add your own stuff to it in a very easy manner). However, when
using the IDE you probably are not referring to it as a framework.
IIRC Eclipse comes also with a bunch of (Java) libraries, which can be
considered a framework as well.
--
John Bokma Freelance software developer
&
Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 16:32:30 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <sherm@Sherm-Pendleys-Computer.local>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <m2odw9nk0x.fsf@Sherm-Pendleys-Computer.local>
"Bob" <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com> writes:
> Re: John Bokma
>
>> AFAIK you have to make a version for each platform, since perl itself is
>> not portable. (perl, not Perl)
>
> ...what would be the difference between "perl" and "Perl"?
That's a Frequently Asked Question - have a look at "perldoc -q difference".
If you package up a Windows build of perl (the interpreter) along with some
portable Perl code to make an .exe, you can't expect the result to run on
Solaris simply because the un-packaged Perl source code was portable. That
kind of portability goes out the window as soon as you produce a platform-
specific binary.
>> Yes, but if reverse engineering is an issue, you probably shouldn't
>> release the program :-)
>
> I spent ten years to design an algorithm that I would rather not get
> stolen
> in ten minutes by reading the .exe. I appreciate your humor
John's not joking. Well, he might be, but if so the joke is funny because
it's true.
A PAR or perl2exe package will not protect your code from reverse engineering.
But then, neither will using a C, C++, Java, or any other compiler. If it's
available to the public, it can (and undoubtedly will) be hacked.
Most retailers take a certain percentage of theft as a given - they even have
a term for it: "shrinkage". They learned long ago that the effort needed to
eliminating those last few points would actually cost them more than the lost
merchandise itself costs.
There's a lesson there for software publishers. Piracy *will* happen. By all
means take reasonable precautions, but don't lose sleep over the fact that a
handful of skilled "crackers" will be able to see your code.
The few "pirates" I've known personally were just collectors anyway, who
amassed thousands of disks worth of software they never used. They wouldn't
have bought the software anyway - it would have cost them $millions - so I
don't think that sort of thing has much effect on the bottom line.
>> > The alternative is Java, but I want a swift application... Java is too
>> > hungry for resources.
>>
>> Depends a lot on the programmer. It seems that a lot of Java programmers
>> mistake garbage collection and Swing for a free programmer that comes with
>> the language.
>
> I did not get that one.
I think what John's saying is, blame the programmer, not the language. Java
can be used by a good programmer to write tight, efficient code.
Bad Java programmers tend to believe that they can feed their compiler a
mess of fat, bloated code and it will magically be able to produce a slim,
efficient executable out of it. And when it fails to do so, they'll blame
the language, the runtime, the libraries, the phase of the moon, solar
flares - anything that doesn't require them to admit their own mistakes.
Come to think of it, that's bad programmers in general. Nothing Java-specific
about it.
sherm--
--
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 20:46:56 GMT
From: "A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <Xns97F3AAD0BC6D0asu1cornelledu@127.0.0.1>
"Bob" <catdogbeloved@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1151780026.807829.299960
@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[ Please do not strip attributions ]
>
>> Perl/TK is a very professional framework.
>
> Sinan, Perl and TK are languages.
Perl is a language.
Tk is a toolkit.
Perl/Tk is the Tk toolkit implementation for Perl.
> An IDE, on the other hand, is a framework.
> This is plain English! Let us not disagree on it!
If you insist on using terms incorrectly, I don't see how we cannot
disagree.
Sinan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 20:47:40 GMT
From: "A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Subject: Re: Professional IDE for a cross-platform Perl application
Message-Id: <Xns97F3AAEFDBA06asu1cornelledu@127.0.0.1>
Sherm Pendley <sherm@Sherm-Pendleys-Computer.local> wrote in
news:m2k66xtefa.fsf@Sherm-Pendleys-Computer.local:
> "A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid> writes:
>
>> Absolutely not. An IDE is GUI application that provides editing,
>> debugging, project management and other facilities.
>
> It's not necessarily a GUI app.
Agreed. Excuse the slopiness on my part, please.
Sinan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 09:56:58 +1200
From: Shane <shane@weasel.is-a-geek.net>
Subject: Re: test value
Message-Id: <e86r29$6em$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>
Ch Lamprecht wrote:
> Shane wrote:
>
>> To make matters slightly more complicated $val is an arrayref, in a hash
>> If I use the following if @($hash->{$val}) I get
>> Scalar found where operator expected at ./attempt3.pl line 254,
>
> One way of dereferencing arrayrefs is:
>
> @{$arrayref}
>
> However, you are using $val as a hash key here...
> You didn't tell anything about the value of $hash->{$val}.
> It would be much easier to help you, if you posted a short but complete
> example.
>
>
> Documentation on perl references and data structures:
> perldoc perlreftut
> perldoc perldsc
> perldoc perllol
>
> Christoph
>
Yes I should have posted the full problem from the beginning
The code is spread over 300+ lines, modular, but still not practical to
post
As I started this reply I had a thought and checked my code, I realised I
was reading the output incorrectly, as I had thought my capture was
reporting false positives
However, I realised I needed the output to show which element it was talking
about, and sure enough it was talking about the 'broken' element multiple
times (The capture was working fine IOW)
Thanks all for your time and fixes
--
Rule 6: There is no rule 6
Blog: http://shanes.dyndns.org
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 9416
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