[27177] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 9003 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Feb 28 14:06:10 2006
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:05:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 28 Feb 2006 Volume: 10 Number: 9003
Today's topics:
Re: A Problem With GD <markem@airmail.net>
Re: A Problem With GD <markem@airmail.net>
Re: A Problem With GD <markem@airmail.net>
Re: A Problem With GD <markem@airmail.net>
Re: A Problem With GD <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
alternative to calltree ? <nospam@nomail.org>
Re: Copy contents of reference <xx087@freenet.carleton.ca>
Re: Import other perl files <xx087@freenet.carleton.ca>
Re: pruning directories by adding hard links <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim>
Re: References as Hash Keys, Tree Structures (Newbie) <uri@stemsystems.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:15:13 -0600
From: Mark Manning <markem@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: A Problem With GD
Message-Id: <1208mlbs7g9on1e@corp.supernews.com>
I was looking for someone.
Samwyse wrote:
Why do you think that anyone on
> this group can help with that? Doesn't GD have a place to send such
> reports?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:16:12 -0600
From: Mark Manning <markem@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: A Problem With GD
Message-Id: <1208mn7hkn6d245@corp.supernews.com>
Yeah, I know - but thanks.
Ch Lamprecht wrote:
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:06:31 -0600
From: Mark Manning <markem@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: A Problem With GD
Message-Id: <1208pli9oargg62@corp.supernews.com>
Tad McClellan wrote:
> That's how Usenet works. Stuff is posted, then it is commented on.
Usually - yes. But not in this case. I did not post originally because
I just wanted to talk to someone away from Usenet.
>
> There is no requirement that the comment correspond with what
> the poster wants to be commented on.
>
> Maybe the resulting discussion addresses the OP's problem,
> or maybe it doesn't.
And in this case - it doesn't.
>
> The newsgroup does not exist to serve you, it exists to serve
> the community.
Didn't ask it to do so.
> Being disingenuous like that weakens your argument.
It is not being disingenuous. What I mean by test code is that it is
just an example snippet of code. Something I threw together in about
five minutes. The entire program is very large, it does use strict et
al but I just slapped something together because Mr. Unur seemed so
insistent about it.
So then Mr. Unur starts saying "You should do X and Y and Z!" and I'm
like "What the @#$%$?" First you slap me because I don't post anything
and now you're slapping me because I did?
In retrospect, I probably should have just e-mailed the person with whom
I talked with shortly after about the third go-round with Mr. Unur. It
would have made things a lot easier for everyone involved.
>
> Observing the basics such as pragmas and indenting is hardly
> super-duperizing things.
But it _was_ indented on my end. It has been so long since I last
posted to Usenet that I'd forgotten how Netscape would wrap things. Mr.
Unur jumped on me for bad indentation and for having comments that
wrapped. He ASSUMED that it was me that did it whereas I had no idea
that Netscape had done this.
> Errr, yes, we could all tell.
Obviously not. Otherwise - why all of the fuss? When I used to be very
active on Usenet, helping people, I never gave such things a second
thought and only focused on the problem itself. That was a while ago
and obviously things have changed quite a bit.
> Gee, I don't know...
>
> Do you think maybe it was because it was just some thrown together code?
>
> Duh!
Yes. And that is my point exactly. If that is the code given, then
instead of putting the person down for having done it you should just
answer the question and go on. Instead of making statements like you
just made. You are putting me down because I'm being myself and not
you. I guess your mom never taught you the basics of kindness and
consideration - did she?
>
> If you are not willing to invest a little bit in making it
> easier to help you solve your problem, then it is unreasonable
> to expect volunteers to invest in it.
No. It is unreasonable for volunteers to try to force their view on the
rest of the world. Do you truly believe that anyone wants to post here
and get the response you are giving me? Listen to yourself. If the
only reason you are doing and saying the things you are is because you
are there and I am here. If you were to do/say these things to - say -
your mom. Would she like what you are saying? What about your boss?
If you went up to your boss and told him the way he dresses is tacky
that his management style sucked - do you think you would have a job?
Does just because you are "volunteering" make it ok to do this?
>
> Mr. Unur focused on solving _that_ problem, which would help
> you with getting answers both now and in the future.
>
> He was being meta-helpful, that is, helping with an issue
> bigger than the issue that brought you here.
Not really.
> This newsgroup is NOT A HELP DESK!
You are mis-quoting. I did not say it WAS a help desk. I said IF it
was a help desk. That is what this is like. It is NOT a help desk per
se. But, other than the obnoxiousness you have to put up with, it does
act a lot like a help desk.
>
> The social dynamic is very different from a help desk.
By "social dynamic" I take it to mean it's more like a gang meeting
where the toughest acting person gets their way? Oh yeah. I can see that.
> Here's where the problem is:
>
> You think that newsgroups are help desks.
No. I think it should be populated with people who want to help others
(That is what you are saying you do isn't it?) without all of the other
excess baggage. Offer suggestions - yes. Tell the person they suck at
programming because they just did an example program - no.
> That is a bizarre statement.
>
> This society (newsgroup) has rules about what is socially acceptable.
>
> It is *you* who are acting as if you own Usenet by flat-out
> refusing to do things in a socially acceptable manner, and
> attempting to change all of us to conform to "your way".
Ah! The "you must conform" statement again. Beehive mentality. The
drones are all working away in the same manner. Poor little old me.
I've disrupted the hive and now the bees are all angry. It really is
too bad that you can't have something out of the ordinary come at you.
Must really suck to not be able to handle this. I'd hate to be working
with you. Brrrrrrrrr.... way to ridge.
>
> That is why there are several folks on one side of this issue
> an just one person on the other side.
Just because every else jumps over a cliff doesn't mean that I should do
so also.
>
> It is easier to join us than to fight us.
>
> Just format code for human consumption, and ask the machine for
> help before asking hundreds of live humans for help. It isn't
> much to ask.
I didn't ask for help. When I have (The last time was like (OMG!)
almost ten years ago! Damn! Hadn't even thought about that!) asked for
help I clearly stated "I need help" or it might have been "Can someone
help me please?" When I ask - I ask. There was no asking this time.
> That is the over inflated ego that everyone else in this
> thread is talking about.
Yes, I know. But that's only because they are not thinking about it.
> That is the over inflated ego that everyone else in this
> thread is talking about.
No - it is me asserting my right to do as I please. Within boundaries
of course. Can't go robbing banks and such. Again, this is a "you must
conform" statement. You should go re-read my original post. Do you see
any code there? Do you see me saying "I need help" or "Can someone help
me?" No. I was trying to get in contact with someone and I thought it
would attract their attention. I was wrong - it didn't. But it did get
someone to send me an e-mail and I did pass along what I had wanted to
pass along.
>
> If you take cuts in line, then don't whine when someone
> calls you on it.
Eh? Can you maybe explain this?
> It is a response to your "I own Usenet!" attitude.
>
> Try acting like a member of a society, and see if the society's
> reaction isn't different.
Ah yes. The pot calling the kettle black.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:25:35 -0600
From: Mark Manning <markem@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: A Problem With GD
Message-Id: <1208qpaie24bgae@corp.supernews.com>
A. Sinan Unur wrote:
> You might be missing the point of UseNet: When I have a question/issue,
> I find a group where my question is relevant, and then post it to
> receive any feedback anyone on that group can give.
Well, the reason I posted to comp.lang.perl.misc was beause there isn't
a comp.lang.gd or anything like that.
>
> Each group has its own rules. As I try to stay away from the alt.*
> hierarchy, it is not hard to find out what those rules are and follow
> them.
>
> c.l.p.m. also has rules. One of those is that you need to provide enough
> information with your post. IMNSHO, that is especially true when you are
> blaming mistakes in the code on imagined defects in someone else's
> library in a public forum.
Yes. I understand. But that is why I didn't post any code to begin
with. I was not looking for help per se. It is also why I said:
"I believe I may have uncovered a problem..."
Because I may NOT have uncovered a problem as well.
> In that case, how can you make the claim that there is a bug in GD.pm?
As I have said before. The code that was posted was thrown together and
it gave the results it gave. That code is not THE code I am working on
but as quickly reduced and posted as I could after I'd decided to go
ahead and do it. My mistake - is in posting the code. I should have
just said I was looking for someone and waited.
>
> By the way, you seem to have a fascination with rear-ends? Why do you
> have to mention them every few words? Could you stop cursing maybe?
It was in response to what you were saying - as you well know.
> Now, this is puzzling me: Why, after calling me an ass several times in
> an earlier post, do you think calling me Mr. is going change the fact
> that you act like a six year old kid?
Would you rather I called you Mrs. Unur? Upbringings on how to address
people are not an issue as far as I could tell. Still, it is not out of
respect that I say that, but because it is shorter than spelling out
your entire name each time. Just like you say "you".
> This is not about you.
Excuse me! Didn't you just say "that you act like a six year old kid?"
> It would take quite a salary for me to leave my current job, and work at
> a help desk. I do not think you could afford it.
Didn't ask you to, but it might improve how you respond to people.
> Well, let me see, you call people names,
You do it as well and then you turn around and say you're not doing it.
> Half-right. That is good enough for me.
Yes - you got that one right.
> Exactly. Do you think others do not have that right.
Did I SAY they don't have that right? I dare you to find anywhere where
I say you can not post when and where you please. Using those words.
Not paraphrasing - not taking things out of context - not using snippets
of a sentence to misstate what I have said. I DARE you to find and post
where I've said others do not have the right to post when and where they
want.
> Yep, that's exactly what you sound like.
>
> Sinan
And every time you post - that is what you are saying. "We own it!'
"Go away!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:11:37 GMT
From: "A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Subject: Re: A Problem With GD
Message-Id: <Xns977871F77B0Dasu1cornelledu@127.0.0.1>
Mark Manning <markem@airmail.net> wrote in
news:1208qpaie24bgae@corp.supernews.com:
> A. Sinan Unur wrote:
>> You might be missing the point of UseNet: When I have a
>> question/issue, I find a group where my question is relevant, and
>> then post it to receive any feedback anyone on that group can give.
>
> Well, the reason I posted to comp.lang.perl.misc was beause there
> isn't a comp.lang.gd or anything like that.
I am not saying comp.lang.perl.misc was the wrong place to post your
question, although comp.lang.perl.modules might have been more
appropriate.
When you post on comp.lang.perl.misc, you are expected to post code that
is strict and warnings clean, and others can run with little effort.
>> Each group has its own rules. As I try to stay away from the alt.*
>> hierarchy, it is not hard to find out what those rules are and follow
>> them.
>>
>> c.l.p.m. also has rules. One of those is that you need to provide
>> enough information with your post. IMNSHO, that is especially true
>> when you are blaming mistakes in the code on imagined defects in
>> someone else's library in a public forum.
>
> Yes. I understand. But that is why I didn't post any code to begin
> with. I was not looking for help per se. It is also why I said:
>
> "I believe I may have uncovered a problem..."
A neutral question would have been: "How do I get in touch with the
author of libgd or the author of GD.pm?" with no extranous claims of
bugs in either library.
Incidentally, those questions are trivially answered by a two second
Google or CPAN query, so what is the point of asking thousands of people
around the world to do that for you?
A statement that raises the possibility of a bug requires a test case
that replicates the behavior.
>> In that case, how can you make the claim that there is a bug in
>> GD.pm?
>
> As I have said before. The code that was posted was thrown together
> and it gave the results it gave. That code is not THE code I am
> working on but as quickly reduced and posted as I could after I'd
> decided to go ahead and do it. My mistake - is in posting the code.
No, your mistake is not posting code in the first place. Anyone who
might be willing to help you will need to be able to replicate the
behavior.
Your second mistake is posting code that was not strict and warnings
clean.
Your third mistake was to call me an ass for trying to teach you how to
write code so you can eliminate the possibility of bugs in your *own*
code before claiming a bug in a library.
>> By the way, you seem to have a fascination with rear-ends? Why do you
>> have to mention them every few words? Could you stop cursing maybe?
>
> It was in response to what you were saying - as you well know.
Oh, I see ...
"A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid> wrote in
news:Xns9775C5C9B6F93asu1cornelledu@127.0.0.1:
>>> Right margin comments that wrap are silly and annoying.
>>>
>>> Give your variables meaningful names, and declare them in the
>>> smallest applicable scope so you don't have to resort to comments
>>> to remember what they do.
**That** justifies you calling me an ass?!
>> Now, this is puzzling me: Why, after calling me an ass several times
>> in an earlier post, do you think calling me Mr. is going change the
>> fact that you act like a six year old kid?
>
> Would you rather I called you Mrs. Unur?
Whatever rocks your boat. I just find it odd to switch to 'Mr.' from
'ass' without so much as an apology a little odd, but to each his own, I
guess.
>> you act like a six year old kid?
> I DARE you to ...
*Sigh*
I am sure everyone else has had enough of this. So, bye.
Sinan
--
A. Sinan Unur <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
(reverse each component and remove .invalid for email address)
comp.lang.perl.misc guidelines on the WWW:
http://mail.augustmail.com/~tadmc/clpmisc/clpmisc_guidelines.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:52:14 +0100
From: Bernd <nospam@nomail.org>
Subject: alternative to calltree ?
Message-Id: <Xns9778B5CA47203nospamnomailorg@62.153.159.134>
Hi *,
i'm searching for a program/script that will outline in text/graph the
call hierarchy of a perl script.
Unfortuantely, I can't get "calltree.pm" to work on a Win32 cygwin
system. There are error messages with B::* modules.
Does anyone know such a software? Any tips appreciated. Thanks in
advance!
Bernd
------------------------------
Date: 28 Feb 2006 14:46:44 GMT
From: Glenn Jackman <xx087@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Copy contents of reference
Message-Id: <slrne08oik.fhh.xx087@smeagol.ncf.ca>
At 2006-02-27 07:27PM, Frank <ppi@searchy.net> wrote:
> And the end I want @save_arr to be 'disconnected' from anything leading
> back to the original @array.
Google for "perl deep copy"
--
Glenn Jackman
Ulterior Designer
------------------------------
Date: 28 Feb 2006 14:43:24 GMT
From: Glenn Jackman <xx087@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Import other perl files
Message-Id: <slrne08occ.fhh.xx087@smeagol.ncf.ca>
At 2006-02-27 05:06PM, Robin Wilson <robin.wilson@16pentlandclose.com> wrote:
> I have a perl file which I would like to divide up into 2 perl files so that
> the content is seperate
>
> I created 2 files and then moves some variables into the other file but I
> cannot work out how to include the second file
>
> I thought the syntax was:
>
> USE FILE.PL
>
> but that's not working
>
> Please can someone tell me the correct syntax
I think what you want is: require './file.pl';
'use' looks for a proper module with the proper file extension in
particular locations.
Make sure the last statement of file.pl returns a true value. e.g. "1;"
--
Glenn Jackman
Ulterior Designer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:02:22 +0000
From: bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim>
Subject: Re: pruning directories by adding hard links
Message-Id: <4404821f$0$3602$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>
Samwyse wrote:
> I have a large collection of NTFS files arranged like this:
> /desktop-2005-12-01/My Documents/...
> /desktop-2006-01-01/My Documents/...
> /desktop-2006-02-01/My Documents/...
> /laptop-2005-12-01/My Documents/...
> /laptop-2006-01-01/My Documents/...
> /laptop-2006-02-01/My Documents/...
> /server-2005-12-01/My Documents/...
> /server-2006-01-01/My Documents/...
> /server-2006-02-01/My Documents/...
>
> As one might imagine, there are lots of files duplicated between these
> directories. I'd like to hard-link those files to each other,
> preferably in a way that reduces the effort required for future pruning.
stepping back slightly, it looks as if something like rsync
might be useful.
BugBear
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:05:46 -0500
From: Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
Subject: Re: References as Hash Keys, Tree Structures (Newbie)
Message-Id: <x7mzgb2wat.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "e" == ethan <tassilo.von.parseval@rwth-aachen.de> writes:
e> Also sprach Uri Guttman:
>> i use refs as hash keys in several places. one is to track a set of refs
>> where you want to be able to add/delete them. these are usually objects
>> but there is no reason they couldn't be regular refs. an example is an
>> event loop where you need to track live events and be able to find them
>> all. a hash of those objects as key and value is perfect for that.
e> Interesting that you mention this scenario because this usage (keeping
e> track of events and associated objects) was the very one I came across
e> just recently. They used it for debugging purpose to see if any objects
e> leaked which can be a pain to figure out in event-based programming.
e> They used a weakened hash lest they interfere with the garbage
e> collecting.
i don't use weakened refs there as my event design want explicit
destructor calls. i do have callback objects in many places and those
two could benefit from weak refs but i am not sure if i will switch to
using them. the discipline of explicit desctruction isn't much work and
the consistancy of the code (you always know when something gets
destroyed) makes it easier to follow.
>> and i wouldn't call them hashed objects. a hash of objects (or refs) is
>> probably clearer and definitely more accurate.
e> It's both ambiguous as 'hash' can mean the data-type (in Perl at
e> least) or it can mean the return value of the hashing function
e> applied to the object. I think we're both referring to the latter.
hmm, i don't follow that. my usage is when i have a hash and use an
object (or ref) for both a (stringified) key and its value. i don't see
any call to a hashing function (other than inside the hash). but i could
be misunderstanding your words.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 9003
***************************************
