[25311] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 7556 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Dec 22 18:10:32 2004
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:10:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 22 Dec 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 7556
Today's topics:
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <jfields@austininstruments.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <dak@gnu.org>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <dak@gnu.org>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <wallace.k@engr.orst.edNOSPAMu>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <jfields@austininstruments.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:19:47 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <nNjyd.9192$yK.7752@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote
> Sorry to nit pick, but in most any proper clac it should be written as
> (-1)^(1/2), less you get -1 from -1^1/2, due to the '-' being evaluated
> last. At least thats what happens in my TI86.
That's the problem here. Folks are using the wrong calculator.
On an hp49 (physically a horrible peice of junk, now made by
Casio(?), don't buy one) there is at least an 'oo' key.
It complains about oo when 1^0/ is _entered_, but it happily
uses 10^500 when it comes time to numerically evaluate oo.
Those for who Reversed not their Polish is 1^0/ is an
asciigram for '1 [enter] 0 [divide]'
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:25:31 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <LSjyd.9199$yK.1676@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote
> Am I missing something here?
No, not really - nobody has said anything profound yet.
> you're still DIVIDING [by 0],
The nub of the matter for sure. If we stopped this thread
would cease to be.
> so when x = 0, the result [1/x] is undefined.
Well, we sure can't find a definition.
It is, in truth, 'arguably undefined'.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:48:48 -0600
From: John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <oljjs0peffcv4olbq4st7jcmnpr2fhrioh@4ax.com>
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:31:53 -0800, "Alfred Z. Newmane"
<a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>Try it on a calc for starters. You just can't divide by zero.
---
Depends on the calculator.
I have an _old_ Commodore C8, and if you divide by zero (0.0,
actually) the display will count up.
--
John Fields
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:02:12 +0100
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <x5fz1yaypn.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
vonroach <hadrainc@earthlink.net> writes:
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:24:39 +0100, Josef Moellers
> <josef.moellers@fujitsu-siemens.com> wrote:
>
>>Gactimus wrote:
>>> I know 0 is neither negative or positive but what about odd/even? I think
>>> it's even.
>>>
>>> Odd numbers start at 1 and go every other number 1,3,5,7;1,-1,-3,-5,-7
>>> Even starts at 2 and go every other number 2,4,6,8;2,0,-2,-4,-6,-8
>>
>>As it can be divided by 2 without a remainder, it is obviously even.
>
> Er..., it can also be divided by every other number (rational,
> irrational, and imaginary) without a remainder,
Which means that it is also a multiple of 3, 4, 5, 6... against which
there is no law. It does make 0 the center of the additive universe.
> although some of us are amused by the strange concept of dividing
> nothing and the absurd idea that there may be a `remainder'. Then
> comes the wild assertion that when a number is divided by nothing,
> it becomes infinite.
Numbers don't become, they are. 4 does not "become" 2 if I divide it
by 2. Half of 4 _is_ 2.
And if I divide 1 by 0, the related question is "if I have one piece
of candy, and I hand out equal amounts of candy to nobody until there
is no candy left, ..." Bzzzzt. No need to look further.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:04:32 +0100
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <x5brcmaylr.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:31:53 -0800, "Alfred Z. Newmane"
> <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Try it on a calc for starters. You just can't divide by zero.
>
> ---
> Depends on the calculator.
>
> I have an _old_ Commodore C8, and if you divide by zero (0.0,
> actually) the display will count up.
I had an even older calculator, and its motor would just keep spinning
without the total ever changing.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:11:48 -0800
From: k wallace <wallace.k@engr.orst.edNOSPAMu>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <9d-dnZmz3LiZSFTcRVn-sQ@comcast.com>
Kevin Aylward wrote:
> vonroach wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:34:03 -0000, BB <BB@BB.BB> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The divisor would have to be something smaller than 0 like -2.
>>>Therefore zero is both even and negative.
>>
>>Whoa! A new concept: -0. Let's make up some other numbers. I suggest
>>wizzad and fugawe. I'd have suggested Arunda, but I believe some
>>obscure African group already uses that in their alphabet.
>
>
> -0 often/usually signifies a limit approaching from the negative
> direction.
But that is an indication of direction to approach from, NOT a sign on
the zero. When approaching f(x) from -0, we are not somehow computing
with "negative zero".
So while "-0" may have a defined meaning, it is certainly not
"negative zero".
This is getting too silly.
kwallace
>
> Kevin Aylward
> salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
> http://www.anasoft.co.uk
> SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
> Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
> Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:46:33 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <J2lyd.10429$Z47.8599@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
"robert j. kolker" <nowhere@nowhere.net> wrote
> > Then why can you not perform 1/0 ? (or n/0)
>
> If n/0 for n not 0 had a value then it would be equal to 0 and not equal
> to 0 at the same time.
???
The common contrarian take is:
1 / 0 = oo
n / 0 = n * oo
0 / 0 = 0 * oo = 1
I take the stance that 0 and oo are imaginary and sticky. Once
you have an equation with a 0 in it you are stuck with the zero.
2 * 0 == 0 + 0 and it doesn't simplify
As doesn't
2 * sqrt(-1) = sqrt(-1) + sqrt(-1)
> Contradictions are not permitted.
Who made that up?
Anyway, I am of contradictions, they were taken out and
slapped across my brow several days ago.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:20:31 -0600
From: John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <d1mjs0hogfkqiods604rqgjjv5kll3hkaj@4ax.com>
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:30:37 -0800, "Alfred Z. Newmane"
<a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>John Fields wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:56:07 GMT, vonroach <hadrainc@earthlink.net>
>>> Then comes the wild assertion
>>> that when a number is divided by nothing, it becomes infinite.
>>
>> ---
>> ???
>>
>> For
>>
>> 1
>> x = ---
>> n
>>
>> x grows without bound as n approaches zero, no?
>
>Exactly: graph y = 1 / x
>
>You get a graph that loos like this:
>(Both the ---- line and the horizontal segments of ... are y = 0, drawn
>as such since to show what the graph line looks like without being
>overlapped by the origin (zero point) line.)
>
>
>y = 1 / x:
>
> | (doesn't quite reach 0,
> |. <-- since y = undefiend for x = 0)
> |.
> | ..
>(<- etc) ....... | ....... (etc ->)
> -------..-+----------
> .|
> --> .|
> (doesn't quite |
> reach 0, since y = undefiend for x = 0)
>
---
Unde_fiend_? I like that!-)
How about if we redraw the graph to look something like this:
y = 1 / x:
OXO
|
-
-
|.
| .
| .
| .
--.------0,0--------
. |
. |
. |
.|
-
-
|
OXO
with the discontinuities in plus and minus Y being used to allow us to
ignore the unimportant values (to us) of Y so that we can get to
infinity (ASCII OXO)?
That way we could (by sliding the discontinuity up and down) also plot
y = tan phi when phi was at, and also close to, 90°.
--
John Fields
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:32:35 GMT
From: "Kevin Aylward" <salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <TJlyd.2985$0W6.1547@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
> "robert j. kolker" <nowhere@nowhere.net> wrote
>
>>> Then why can you not perform 1/0 ? (or n/0)
>>
>> If n/0 for n not 0 had a value then it would be equal to 0 and not
>> equal to 0 at the same time.
>
> ???
>
> The common contrarian take is:
>
> 1 / 0 = oo
> n / 0 = n * oo
> 0 / 0 = 0 * oo = 1
>
> I take the stance that 0 and oo are imaginary and sticky. Once
> you have an equation with a 0 in it you are stuck with the zero.
Oh?
2^0 = 1
Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:45:56 -0800
From: "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <32u8chF3rhdsbU1@individual.net>
robert j. kolker wrote:
> Alfred Z. Newmane wrote:
>
>>
>> Then why can you not perform 1/0 ? (or n/0)
>
> If n/0 for n not 0 had a value then it would be equal to 0 and not
> equal to 0 at the same time. Contradictions are not permitted.
I know, that was my silent point :-P (that ultimately, you cannot div by
zero.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:47:36 -0800
From: "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <32u8flF3pri2gU1@individual.net>
Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
> "robert j. kolker" <nowhere@nowhere.net> wrote
>
>>> Then why can you not perform 1/0 ? (or n/0)
>>
>> If n/0 for n not 0 had a value then it would be equal to 0 and not
>> equal to 0 at the same time.
>
> ???
>
> The common contrarian take is:
>
> 1 / 0 = oo
> n / 0 = n * oo
> 0 / 0 = 0 * oo = 1
oo (infinity isn't a number) so you cannot use it this way.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:52:59 -0800
From: "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <32u8poF3qltblU1@individual.net>
Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote
>
>> Sorry to nit pick, but in most any proper clac it should be written
>> as (-1)^(1/2), less you get -1 from -1^1/2, due to the '-' being
>> evaluated last. At least thats what happens in my TI86.
>
> That's the problem here. Folks are using the wrong calculator.
Exactly.
> On an hp49 (physically a horrible peice of junk, now made by
> Casio(?), don't buy one) there is at least an 'oo' key.
Good grief... I thought all of those calculators were ordered destroyed
for fear of national security?
> It complains about oo when 1^0/ is _entered_, but it happily
> uses 10^500 when it comes time to numerically evaluate oo.
My TI simply gives 1e500
> Those for who Reversed not their Polish is 1^0/ is an
> asciigram for '1 [enter] 0 [divide]'
Ah, the old HP Reversed Polish notation :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:58:29 -0800
From: "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <32u942F3pm21dU1@individual.net>
k wallace wrote:
> Kevin Aylward wrote:
>> vonroach wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:34:03 -0000, BB <BB@BB.BB> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The divisor would have to be something smaller than 0 like -2.
>>>> Therefore zero is both even and negative.
>>>
>>> Whoa! A new concept: -0. Let's make up some other numbers. I
>>> suggest wizzad and fugawe. I'd have suggested Arunda, but I believe
>>> some obscure African group already uses that in their alphabet.
>>
>>
>> -0 often/usually signifies a limit approaching from the negative
>> direction.
>
> But that is an indication of direction to approach from, NOT a sign on
> the zero. When approaching f(x) from -0, we are not somehow computing
> with "negative zero".
> So while "-0" may have a defined meaning, it is certainly not
> "negative zero".
Exactly. I was gonan pot the same thing jsut before I saw your post.
> This is getting too silly.
Well it seems a lot of debates I've seen on usenet become over inflated
by people who know nothing of what they are talking about, and the OP is
no wiser than before he made the initial post. Even with all the
knowledgeable posts abroad, they get lost in the mix of utter ignorance,
or so it seems.
It's really sad if you really think about it...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:00:30 -0800
From: "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <32u97rF3oq4guU1@individual.net>
John Fields wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:30:37 -0800, "Alfred Z. Newmane"
> <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
[...]
>> y = 1 / x:
>>
>> | (doesn't quite reach 0,
>> |. <-- since y = undefiend for x = 0)
>> |.
>> | ..
>> (<- etc) ....... | ....... (etc ->)
>> -------..-+----------
>> .|
>> --> .|
>> (doesn't quite |
>> reach 0, since y = undefiend for x = 0)
>>
>
> ---
> Unde_fiend_? I like that!-)
Oops... nicks picks, nit picks... ;-P
> How about if we redraw the graph to look something like this:
>
>
> y = 1 / x:
>
> OXO
> |
> -
>
> -
> |.
> | .
> | .
> | .
> --.------0,0--------
> . |
> . |
> . |
> .|
> -
>
> -
> |
> OXO
>
> with the discontinuities in plus and minus Y being used to allow us to
> ignore the unimportant values (to us) of Y so that we can get to
> infinity (ASCII OXO)?
I like your graph better than mine, well done.
> That way we could (by sliding the discontinuity up and down) also plot
> y = tan phi when phi was at, and also close to, 90°.
Good point :-)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:12:39 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <rjmyd.9305$yK.5796@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote
> Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
> > 1 / 0 = oo
> > n / 0 = n * oo
> > 0 / 0 = 0 * oo = 1
>
> oo (infinity isn't a number) so you cannot use it this way.
Yes, that's my point. Keep track of oo, don't merge it with
numbers.
j [sqrt(-1)] isn't a number but we still mix it up with numbers.
For infinity I can look in the sky. For 0 I can examine my
bank balance. But for j I can't look anywhere, but still
it has use. With that perspective oo + 1 may be worth
manipulating.
I will admit, I find no use for 1/0 and 1 + oo > oo.
It's a mental itch. And here's this scratching post.
As justification, j was pretty useless/undefined/don't
talk about it for till (someone famous) came up with e^jx,
which on the face of it makes even less sense.
So, as hobby, I am exploring the idea that if you can
keep track of oo and 1/0 and 4*0 it might have some
advantage.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:19:59 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <jqmyd.9309$yK.3131@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote
> Well it seems a lot of debates I've seen on usenet become over inflated
> by people who know nothing of what they are talking about, and the OP is
> no wiser than before he made the initial post. Even with all the
> knowledgeable posts abroad, they get lost in the mix of utter ignorance,
> or so it seems. It's really sad if you really think about it...
"A tale, told by and idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
Willy the Shake
For me, my choice is to endlessly converse about 1/0 or go back to
making cold sales calls.
Sort of like: "What will the dog eat before it consents to eating dog food."
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:26:49 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <Jwmyd.9314$yK.1313@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
John Fields wrote:
> OXO
> -
> |.
> | .
> | .
> | .
> --.------0,0--------
> . |
> . |
> . |
> .|
> -
>
> -
> |
> OXO
One infinity, one zero. +oo == -oo; +0 == -0. Neither
actually exist and you can approach from the direction of
your choice.
From the graph I would say 1/0 is oo.
Somebody wrote a whole book on '0', I have (had?) a copy
but darned if I can find it.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 7556
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