[25305] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 7550 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Dec 22 00:10:39 2004
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:10:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 21 Dec 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 7550
Today's topics:
Re: Is zero even or odd? <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? xhoster@gmail.com
Re: Is zero even or odd? mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Re: Is zero even or odd? <invalid@msgid.michael.mendelsohn.de>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <willem@stack.nl>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <see@sig.com>
Re: Is zero even or odd? (Matthew Russotto)
Re: Is zero even or odd? <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk>
Re: Is zero even or odd? <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk>
Re: Newbie question <tadmc@augustmail.com>
Re: Perl vs. .Net regular expressions <see_sig@invalid>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:20:52 +0000 (UTC)
From: "Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <cqab4k$7m1$6@sparta.btinternet.com>
"Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net> wrote in message
news:VK6dnSw-tLV__VXcRVn-jg@comcast.com...
>
> <mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> news:tURxd.14$35.4459@news.uchicago.edu...
> > In article <32p53dF3paevvU1@individual.net>, "Alfred Z. Newmane"
> > <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
> >>Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
> >>> "John Sefton" <john@petcom.com> wrote
> >>>
> >>>> 0 can't be divided by itself,
> >>>
> >>> Sure it can: 0 / 0 = 0 * (1 / 0) = 0 * infinity = 1
> >>>
> >>> It works if the only three numbers in the universe are
> >>> 0, 1, and infinity -- A number system that seems very
> >>> suited to usenet.
> >>
> >>Except for the fact that: 0 / 0 = undefined
> >>
> >>Or actually more correct: n / 0 = undefined
> >>
> > The two are not the same.
> >
> > The definition of the ratio a/b is
> >
> > a/b = r iff b*r = a
> >
> > for the case of n/0 there is no r such that r*0 = n (follows from
the
> > definition of zero. Therefore n/0 (for non zero n) *does not
exist*.
> >
> > On the other hand, for 0/0, every r qualifies since for every r,
r*0 =
> > 0 (the definition of zero, again). Therefore, 0/0 is truly
undefined,
> > in the sense that it is impossible to *uniquely* assign a value to
the
> > ratio r.
> >
> > Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
> > meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just
the same"
>
> It depends on how you get there, [sin(x)]/x is certainly defined
for all
> values of x including 0 and infinity.
If you knew any maths worth talking about, you would have known that
sin(0) / 0 is not the same as the limit of sin(x) / x as x tends to 0.
The first is undefined and the second is unity.
Now it is your turn: What do you know about sin (infinity) / infinity
?
Franz
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:20:53 +0000 (UTC)
From: "Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <cqab4l$7m1$7@sparta.btinternet.com>
"Steven Lord" <slord@mathworks.com> wrote in message
news:cq9h6f$6g8$1@fred.mathworks.com...
>
> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
> news:iEWxd.7669$yK.5640@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > "David Kastrup" <dak@gnu.org> wrote
> >
> > > 0/0 is clearly, if anything, a constant expression. And it
turns out
> > > [to some] that its value is undefined.
> >
> > Better minds than can be found here have argued this and not
reached
> > any conclusion. 'Undefined' is the answer given by the teacher in
the
> > 7th grade, and will serve for all practical purposes.
> >
> > Maybe what is needed is a New Number = '*' (or something) = Any
Number You
> Want.
>
> Just FYI, if you're performing arithmetic using the IEEE 754
standard,
I doubt if there are any mathematicians who care a hoot about
definitions made by engineers for computational convenience
[snip]
Franz
------------------------------
Date: 21 Dec 2004 23:38:19 GMT
From: xhoster@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <20041221183819.393$6y@newsreader.com>
"Franz Heymann" <franz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> "Steven Lord" <slord@mathworks.com> wrote in message
> news:cq9h6f$6g8$1@fred.mathworks.com...
> >
> > "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
> > news:iEWxd.7669$yK.5640@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > > "David Kastrup" <dak@gnu.org> wrote
> > >
> > > > 0/0 is clearly, if anything, a constant expression. And it
> turns out
> > > > [to some] that its value is undefined.
> > >
> > > Better minds than can be found here have argued this and not
> reached
> > > any conclusion. 'Undefined' is the answer given by the teacher in
> the
> > > 7th grade, and will serve for all practical purposes.
> > >
> > > Maybe what is needed is a New Number = '*' (or something) = Any
> Number You
> > Want.
> >
> > Just FYI, if you're performing arithmetic using the IEEE 754
> standard,
>
> I doubt if there are any mathematicians who care a hoot about
> definitions made by engineers for computational convenience
>
> [snip]
Well, then, how about y'all stop crossposting from Hell to breakfast?
Followups set.
Xho
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:39:55 GMT
From: mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <fv2yd.16$35.5863@news.uchicago.edu>
In article <VK6dnSw-tLV__VXcRVn-jg@comcast.com>, "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net> writes:
>
><mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
>news:tURxd.14$35.4459@news.uchicago.edu...
>> In article <32p53dF3paevvU1@individual.net>, "Alfred Z. Newmane"
>> <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
>>>Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
>>>> "John Sefton" <john@petcom.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>>> 0 can't be divided by itself,
>>>>
>>>> Sure it can: 0 / 0 = 0 * (1 / 0) = 0 * infinity = 1
>>>>
>>>> It works if the only three numbers in the universe are
>>>> 0, 1, and infinity -- A number system that seems very
>>>> suited to usenet.
>>>
>>>Except for the fact that: 0 / 0 = undefined
>>>
>>>Or actually more correct: n / 0 = undefined
>>>
>> The two are not the same.
>>
>> The definition of the ratio a/b is
>>
>> a/b = r iff b*r = a
>>
>> for the case of n/0 there is no r such that r*0 = n (follows from the
>> definition of zero. Therefore n/0 (for non zero n) *does not exist*.
>>
>> On the other hand, for 0/0, every r qualifies since for every r, r*0 =
>> 0 (the definition of zero, again). Therefore, 0/0 is truly undefined,
>> in the sense that it is impossible to *uniquely* assign a value to the
>> ratio r.
>>
>> Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
>> meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
>
>It depends on how you get there, [sin(x)]/x is certainly defined for all
>values of x including 0 and infinity.
>
That's a different thing. Here you're talking not about a plain value
but a limit (of an infinite set of values). And this depends how you
get there. Thus, [sin(0)]/0 is undefined. On the other hand,
lim_x->0 {[sin[x]/x} is defined and equal to 1.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:19:09 +0100
From: Michael Mendelsohn <invalid@msgid.michael.mendelsohn.de>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <41C8BD7D.3E258D15@msgid.michael.mendelsohn.de>
"Nicholas O. Lindan" schrieb:
> "BB" <BB@BB.BB> wrote
> > "How many universes are in a black hole ?"
>
> Oh, this sounds like even more fun. Something we know even less
> about ...
>
> I would say about a black-hole's-worth.
Well, if there's at least one universe inside a black hole, then that
universe could contain another black hole, and so forth.
Because of the Schwarzschild radius, the is at least one universe inside
the black hole separate from ours.
By induction, the answer is: infinitely many.
Cheers
Michael
--
Still an attentive ear he lent Her speech hath caused this pain
But could not fathom what she meant Easier I count it to explain
She was not deep, nor eloquent. The jargon of the howling main
-- from Lewis Carroll: The Three Usenet Trolls
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:46:12 -0500
From: "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <k6ednfUAZLImXlXcRVn-uw@comcast.com>
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:cqab4k$7m1$6@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
> "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net> wrote in message
> news:VK6dnSw-tLV__VXcRVn-jg@comcast.com...
>>
>> <mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
>> news:tURxd.14$35.4459@news.uchicago.edu...
>> > In article <32p53dF3paevvU1@individual.net>, "Alfred Z. Newmane"
>> > <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
>> >>Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
>> >>> "John Sefton" <john@petcom.com> wrote
>> >>>
>> >>>> 0 can't be divided by itself,
>> >>>
>> >>> Sure it can: 0 / 0 = 0 * (1 / 0) = 0 * infinity = 1
>> >>>
>> >>> It works if the only three numbers in the universe are
>> >>> 0, 1, and infinity -- A number system that seems very
>> >>> suited to usenet.
>> >>
>> >>Except for the fact that: 0 / 0 = undefined
>> >>
>> >>Or actually more correct: n / 0 = undefined
>> >>
>> > The two are not the same.
>> >
>> > The definition of the ratio a/b is
>> >
>> > a/b = r iff b*r = a
>> >
>> > for the case of n/0 there is no r such that r*0 = n (follows from
> the
>> > definition of zero. Therefore n/0 (for non zero n) *does not
> exist*.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, for 0/0, every r qualifies since for every r,
> r*0 =
>> > 0 (the definition of zero, again). Therefore, 0/0 is truly
> undefined,
>> > in the sense that it is impossible to *uniquely* assign a value to
> the
>> > ratio r.
>> >
>> > Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
>> > meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just
> the same"
>>
>> It depends on how you get there, [sin(x)]/x is certainly defined
> for all
>> values of x including 0 and infinity.
>
> If you knew any maths worth talking about, you would have known that
> sin(0) / 0 is not the same as the limit of sin(x) / x as x tends to 0.
> The first is undefined and the second is unity.
>
Tell that to all the book publishers who print curves for sinx/x.
> Now it is your turn: What do you know about sin (infinity) / infinity
> ?
>
> Franz
>
>
No problem. Sin x is bounded between +/- 1 for all values of x. A finite
number divided by infinity is 0.
Tam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:58:55 +0000 (UTC)
From: Willem <willem@stack.nl>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <slrncshhmf.2e07.willem@toad.stack.nl>
) "Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
) news:cqab4k$7m1$6@sparta.btinternet.com...
) <snip>
)> If you knew any maths worth talking about, you would have known that
)> sin(0) / 0 is not the same as the limit of sin(x) / x as x tends to 0.
)> The first is undefined and the second is unity.
Tam/WB2TT wrote:
) Tell that to all the book publishers who print curves for sinx/x.
If you zoom in on those printed curves far enough, you'll notice that
there is no ink at the actual point (0,1).
SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:56:47 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <zv4yd.7675$Z47.4756@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
"Richards Noah (IFR LIT MET)" <Noah.Richards@infineon.com> wrote
> Wrong- where do you get off saying (2*0)/0= 2*(0/0) ?
The Dorsh Road stop on the #9 line. But thank you for your
kind and thoughtful response. You maybe got off a few stops
earlier?
If I treat 0 as an imaginary number, which is what it may
be - what with the way imaginations go wild over the subject,
then 0 <> (2 * 0), as are sqrt(-1) <> 2*sqrt(-1) and
oo <> 2 * oo.
On adding to infinity there is much controversy, some claim
1 + oo <> oo + 1
This gets multiple infinities out of some paradox but is
too bizarre even for me.
There is also a school of thought:
oo < n * oo
Some reject multiplication and claim the next infinity worth
talking about is:
oo = n + oo = n * oo < oo^oo
Infinity, like 0, seems to be imaginary. Nobody can produce
-nothing-, as nobody can produce -everything-.
But to claim:
n / 0 is illegal and Sister Prudence will rap your knuckles if
you think otherwise.
Well, how petit bourgeois can one get?
Angels and pin-heads anyone? At least Sister Pru would approve.
* * *
Slightly OT, is there an accepted ASCII-gram for square root?
And shouldn't someone add a travel cruise group to the distribution.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:05:46 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <_D4yd.7692$Z47.1240@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote
> If you knew any maths worth talking about,
I guess in your book I don't, but I won't let that stop me.
> you would have known that
> sin(0) / 0 is not the same as the limit of sin(x) / x as x tends to 0.
Gee, and all that analysis I have been doing using sinc(x) as a
test impulse is all wrong: the function is discontinuous and not
differentiable or integrable. Zeno Rules!
I imagine then that lim(x->2) <> 2. Makes about much sense to me,
but then I think (2 * 0)/(3 * 0) = 2/3,
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:15:00 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <EM4yd.7717$Z47.1623@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
<xhoster@gmail.com> wrote in message
> Well, then, how about y'all stop crossposting from Hell to breakfast?
We are being inclusive. We just got lectured that inclusiveness is a
universal _good thing_, so we are trying it out.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:19:07 GMT
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <vQ4yd.7730$Z47.1800@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Mati Meron <mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote
> "When you argue with a fool, chances are he is doing just the same"
I nominate this as the summation of the debate.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:49:08 -0600
From: russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <RqadnScDqOI5fVXcRVn-jg@speakeasy.net>
In article <_D4yd.7692$Z47.1240@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com> wrote:
>"Franz Heymann" <notfranz.heymann@btopenworld.com> wrote
>
>> If you knew any maths worth talking about,
>
>I guess in your book I don't, but I won't let that stop me.
>
>> you would have known that
>> sin(0) / 0 is not the same as the limit of sin(x) / x as x tends to 0.
>
>Gee, and all that analysis I have been doing using sinc(x) as a
>test impulse is all wrong: the function is discontinuous and not
>differentiable or integrable. Zeno Rules!
sinc(x) is a useful function that's defined as sin(pi*x)/pi*x when x
is not equal to 0 and as 1 when x is equal to zero. But
sin (pi*x)/pi*x is discontinous at zero.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:09:21 +0000
From: John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <XNLAFxBxNPyBFw88@jmwa.demon.co.uk>
I read in sci.electronics.design that Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com>
wrote (in <zv4yd.7675$Z47.4756@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>) about
'Is zero even or odd?', on Wed, 22 Dec 2004:
>Slightly OT, is there an accepted ASCII-gram for square root?
I've seen v/(x) used; it's fairly evident what it means. I just found
that decimal 175 is an 'overscore' character, ¯, which means that v/¯(x)
could be used.
How about) for cube root?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:13:27 +0000
From: John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <It+Hd8BnRPyBFw8A@jmwa.demon.co.uk>
I read in sci.electronics.design that Matthew Russotto
<russotto@grace.speakeasy.net> wrote (in <RqadnScDqOI5fVXcRVn-
jg@speakeasy.net>) about 'Is zero even or odd?', on Tue, 21 Dec 2004:
>But sin (pi*x)/pi*x is
>discontinous at zero.
Is it? Does the limit of its differential differ as x->0+ and as x->0-?
If not, it's 'squeezed'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:31:14 +0000
From: John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk>
Subject: Re: Is zero even or odd?
Message-Id: <G9TEJLCSiPyBFwdG@jmwa.demon.co.uk>
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.cont
raspam.yuk> wrote (in <XNLAFxBxNPyBFw88@jmwa.demon.co.uk>) about 'Is
zero even or odd?', on Wed, 22 Dec 2004:
>How about) for cube root?
My newsreader jibbed at that, as you can see, so yours may have, too. It
had the exponent-3 character, decimal 179, before the v/¯(x) group.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:14:09 -0600
From: Tad McClellan <tadmc@augustmail.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie question
Message-Id: <slrncshij1.qtu.tadmc@magna.augustmail.com>
Ken <x3v0-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dave Weaver wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:37:47 -0500, Ken <x3v0-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Try this instead:
>>>
>>> prepare();
>>>
>>> You can't call subroutines without the parentheses.
>>
>>
>> Yes you can, as long as the sub has been defined before the call:
> Cool I didn't know that. Still, probably not a good habit to get into.
Why not?
--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
tadmc@augustmail.com Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:03:39 -0500
From: Bob Walton <see_sig@invalid>
Subject: Re: Perl vs. .Net regular expressions
Message-Id: <41c8f191$1_2@127.0.0.1>
tconti@hotmail.com wrote:
...
> I am looking for a little input on an issue we are grappling with. We
> are updating our site to be Unicode compliant. We have some
> applications running under Perl 5.6.1 which has "sketchy" support for
> Unicode. So there is a push to re-write these applications in .Net
> (C#) because we are largely a Windows shop. Most of our Perl code is
> regex heavy. .Net does have a fairly robust regex engine, but I have
> never perfmance tested it against Perl. Has anyone done such testing
> and what are your thoughts/results? Also, if we choose to stick with
> Perl we would need to move to 5.8 for Unicode support. Would this just
> be a simple recompile or would there be any other issues that would
> need to be addressed?
On Windoze, you won't have to compile Perl -- just install it
from ActiveState or maybe Indigo. Just one word of caution:
Assuming you're using ActiveState's Perl, don't simply install
Perl 5.8.4 over top of Perl 5.6.1, as you'll find that ppm
(ActiveState's Perl Package Manager) won't work. Uninstall and
completely delete Perl 5.6.1, then install Perl 5.8.4. You'll
have to reinstall all your nonstandard packages as well.
You probably won't have to change your code at all, except maybe
to add or modify binmode() calls to properly handle your Unicode
stuff.
...
> Tom
--
Bob Walton
Email: http://bwalton.com/cgi-bin/emailbob.pl
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------------------------------
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#where x is the volume number and y is the issue number.
#For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
#perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
#sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
#answer them even if I did know the answer.
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End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 7550
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