[24826] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 6977 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Sep 9 00:06:18 2004
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:05:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 8 Sep 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 6977
Today's topics:
Re: DBD::ODBC,SQL Server,brackets - escape? <wunkalunka@elvis.com>
Re: Efficient Data Storage <xx087@freenet.carleton.ca>
Re: Efficient Data Storage <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Executing cmd from perl script <joericochuyt@msn.com>
Re: Executing cmd from perl script <invalid-email@rochester.rr.com>
Re: Network Scanner (Chad Brown)
Re: parsing XML using a regular expression <ceo@nospam.on.net>
Re: parsing XML using a regular expression <ceo@nospam.on.net>
Re: parsing XML using a regular expression <jerf@jerf.org>
Perl flow/code diagramming tools? (ixtahdoom)
Perl inconsistency <ppagee@yahoo.com>
Re: Perl inconsistency <invalid-email@rochester.rr.com>
Re: RE-Redirecting STDOUT <gifford@umich.edu>
receive data from form and inseri data in the database <nospam@nospam.tv>
Re: receive data from form and inseri data in the datab <invalid-email@rochester.rr.com>
Re: Replacing Ampertsand in cgi url (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: Sybase DBI Returned data query <wherrera@lynxview.com>
Re: two's compliment? <bigal187@invalid.rx.eastcoasttfc.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism (Dave Hansen)
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <lynn@garlic.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <lynn@garlic.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <lynn@garlic.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:24:08 GMT
From: Derf <wunkalunka@elvis.com>
Subject: Re: DBD::ODBC,SQL Server,brackets - escape?
Message-Id: <Xns955ECFDF9B214wunkalunkaelviscom@24.93.43.119>
Eric Schwartz <emschwar@pobox.com> wrote in
news:etopt4wprf1.fsf@wilson.emschwar:
>
> Can you show your Perl code?
Sorry about that.
But your answer basically tells me its not a recognizable Perl problem, and
it turns out it was my SQL code that was causing Perl to see the brackets
as a hash. Thanks for the help!
------------------------------
Date: 8 Sep 2004 23:10:04 GMT
From: Glenn Jackman <xx087@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Efficient Data Storage
Message-Id: <slrncjv4ae.j40.xx087@smeagol.ncf.ca>
At 2004-09-08 04:36PM, Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote:
[...]
> a hash of user records, and use an "Orcish Maneuver" to read and eval a
> record only if the record you want is currently undef:
>
> $users{$this_user} |= get_user($this_user);
you mean:
$users{$this_user} ||= get_user($this_user);
--
Glenn Jackman
NCF Sysadmin
glennj@ncf.ca
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:31:54 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Subject: Re: Efficient Data Storage
Message-Id: <m8udnX4RK4Q2U6LcRVn-hA@adelphia.com>
Glenn Jackman wrote:
> you mean:
> $users{$this_user} ||= get_user($this_user);
Yes, of course. Dang fingers don't always type what they're told to
type... :-(
sherm--
--
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:49:06 -0400
From: "yusufdestina" <joericochuyt@msn.com>
Subject: Executing cmd from perl script
Message-Id: <a01e08cc896043213221a5fa63657fb7@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
Hi all,
I can't get this working... I want to do simple mysql guery execution from
my Perl/Tk appl.
Like:
$rc=`query.bat`;
print "$rc\n";
bat file:
-u username -p database
password
..
Is this correct way? I'm realy new to this!
Or
exec("c:\\FoxServ\\mysql\\bin\\mysql");
but how can i send commands to mysql from perl?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:15:23 GMT
From: Bob Walton <invalid-email@rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Executing cmd from perl script
Message-Id: <413FBCB8.9050802@rochester.rr.com>
yusufdestina wrote:
> Hi all,
> I can't get this working... I want to do simple mysql guery execution
from
> my Perl/Tk appl.
> Like:
...
You will want to use the DBI module to use mysql or other databases from
Perl. For documentation:
perldoc DBI
at a command prompt. Try to follow after the many examples given in the
documentation. You might consider trying to learn how to use DBI with a
simple set of CSV tables and the DBD::CSV interface (perldoc DBD::CSV
for docs). That helps separate out the DBI issues from issues which
might occur with a real database. I recommend learning on a small test
database before tackling any real-life stuff. A big advantage of DBI:
Your Perl code remains the same, except for the connection string, if
you change to a different database vendor. Note: For mysql, you will
probably need to download a DBD module for mysql from CPAN.
--
Bob Walton
Email: http://bwalton.com/cgi-bin/emailbob.pl
------------------------------
Date: 8 Sep 2004 18:09:16 -0700
From: chad@wononline.net (Chad Brown)
Subject: Re: Network Scanner
Message-Id: <ea150da0.0409081709.134f5c15@posting.google.com>
I cant figure this one out... I initialized the variable and it still
brings up the warning.
Use of uninitialized value in pack at
G:\PHASIC\PROJECTS\NETSCAN\netsweep.pl line 136.
this is the line thats causing it...
my $this = pack($sockaddr,$AF_INET,0,my $thisaddr);
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:11:40 GMT
From: ChrisO <ceo@nospam.on.net>
Subject: Re: parsing XML using a regular expression
Message-Id: <g5O%c.1908$hS5.761@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>
Bernard El-Hagin wrote:
> "Leif Wessman" <leifwessman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> This
>
>
>
>>I'm trying to parse some xml with a regular expression (yes, i
>>know that there is several XML modules that I can use).
>
>
>
> when put together with this
>
>
>
>>My problem is that I'm not that good in creating regular
>>expressions. [...]
>
>
>
> suggests using one of the modules you claim to know about.
>
But he's not allowed to use a module because his professor has
specifically indicated that that is not an option for his assignment.
Seems pretty clear to me... ;-)
-ceo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:15:38 GMT
From: ChrisO <ceo@nospam.on.net>
Subject: Re: parsing XML using a regular expression
Message-Id: <_8O%c.1910$hS5.986@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>
Tad McClellan wrote:
> Leif Wessman <leifwessman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I would not like
>>to use an XML-parser.
>
>
>
> Why not?
>
Because Professor Perl at Not Mentioned University said "No XML modules
may be used for this assignment. Or how else will you guys ever learn
anything?"
The OP should, as suggested, pull apart a relevant XML module and write
his own module for this assignment without plagerising (sp)... That
would be where I would start.
-ceo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:46:28 GMT
From: Jeremy Bowers <jerf@jerf.org>
Subject: Re: parsing XML using a regular expression
Message-Id: <pan.2004.09.08.22.46.40.852178@jerf.org>
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:11:40 +0000, ChrisO wrote:
> But he's not allowed to use a module because his professor has
> specifically indicated that that is not an option for his assignment.
> Seems pretty clear to me... ;-)
Are you serious, or joking?
Is there really a professor teaching regexs to parse XML? And giving
assignments on it?
In that case, the *correct* solution is to drop the class while you can
still get a refund. All the wonderful examples for regexes in the world
and (s)he chooses the one that can instill deep and abiding bad habits.
(Caveat: This is acceptable if the end result is to teach that regexes
aren't sufficient, in the school of hard knocks. In which case I think I
admire him/her.)
------------------------------
Date: 8 Sep 2004 18:05:14 -0700
From: ixtahdoom@yahoo.com (ixtahdoom)
Subject: Perl flow/code diagramming tools?
Message-Id: <2aa9aa08.0409081705.2cb4d0dc@posting.google.com>
I'm charged with the task of understanding a large amount of perl
code, mostly very large .pl files (10k+ lines!). Is there any
software that indexes perl code, making a table of contents for all
functions and variables, as well as function flow diagrams (who calls
what and where)? I don't even know what the technical term is to
google for (diagramming perl code returns graphing modules!).
Thanks,
itd
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:19:30 +0200
From: Mike Mimic <ppagee@yahoo.com>
Subject: Perl inconsistency
Message-Id: <A6P%c.2507$F6.554074@news.siol.net>
Hi!
I think that I found some inconsistency in Perl.
Let us suppose we have a file named "file.txt" that contains
only one byte which is '0' (ASCII character for number 0).
And we execute this code:
open(FILE, '<file.txt');
if (<FILE>) {
print "OK\n";
}
close(FILE);
And code does not output anything. What is correct as "0" is
false in Perl.
But then we try this:
open(FILE, '<file.txt');
while (<FILE>) {
print "OK\n";
}
close(FILE);
And code do output "OK". What is strange. Becasue "0" is still
false. In "Programming Perl" it is written:
The while statement repeatedly executes the block as long as EXPR is true.
But "0" is false.
So what is going on?
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:49:40 GMT
From: Bob Walton <invalid-email@rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Perl inconsistency
Message-Id: <413FC4C1.1070103@rochester.rr.com>
Mike Mimic wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I think that I found some inconsistency in Perl.
>
> Let us suppose we have a file named "file.txt" that contains
> only one byte which is '0' (ASCII character for number 0).
>
> And we execute this code:
>
> open(FILE, '<file.txt');
> if (<FILE>) {
> print "OK\n";
> }
> close(FILE);
>
> And code does not output anything. What is correct as "0" is
> false in Perl.
>
> But then we try this:
>
> open(FILE, '<file.txt');
> while (<FILE>) {
> print "OK\n";
> }
> close(FILE);
>
> And code do output "OK". What is strange. Becasue "0" is still
> false. In "Programming Perl" it is written:
The while loop with a <FH> operator is special, at least in recent
versions of Perl. It is actually interpreted as something like:
while(defined($_=<FH>)){
#...
}
See:
perldoc perlop
particularly the section titled "I/O Operators".
>
> The while statement repeatedly executes the block as long as EXPR is true.
So it actually executes as long as the result is *defined*, not true.
<FH> gives undefined upon end of file, and is defined otherwise. Note
that this behavior is only true of the while loop (and "for(;<FH>;)" if
you want to be persnickety). It does not apply to other uses of the
<FH> operator. That feature (hack?) was put in to avoid having to code
the call to defined() over and over again to avoid the situation with
reading lines which evaluate to false which you mention. That makes
sense, as one almost never wants to stop reading when a false line
occurs, but rather when end of file occurs.
>
> But "0" is false.
>
> So what is going on?
>
>
> Mike
--
Bob Walton
Email: http://bwalton.com/cgi-bin/emailbob.pl
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 18:38:45 -0400
From: Scott W Gifford <gifford@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: RE-Redirecting STDOUT
Message-Id: <qsz3c1swfm2.fsf@asteroids.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
botfood@yahoo.com (dan baker) writes:
> aisarosenbaum@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<e3394f73.0409020924.300957e9@posting.google.com>...
>> No I'm not a stuttering typist. ;^)
>>
>> I'm in the pecular position of working in an environment in which
>> STDOUT has been rudely redirected by a script (A) that runs my
>> scripts (B). I want to take STDOUT back without knowing the
>> handle to which it was redirected. I've found a lot of advise
>> on redirecting STDOUT, but I need to re-redirect it back to the
>> console from 'B' without hacking 'A'.
>> -------------------
On my Solaris system at least, the original STDOUT filehandle is lost
when a new one is opened. The original filehandle is on file
descriptor 1, and when STDOUT is opened to a new place, that file
descriptor is replaced:
$ truss perl -e'open(STDOUT,"> /tmp/test")'
...
open64("/tmp/test", O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0666) = 3
fstat64(3, 0x00124D40) = 0
fcntl(3, F_DUP2FD, 0x00000001) = 1
close(3) = 0
...
(use strace instaed of truss on a Linux system)
That fcntl is a dup2 operation, which closes filehandle 1, then makes
it a copy of file descriptor 3 (which points to /tmp/test).
That means that it's not possible, as far as I can tell, unless you
can modify (A)'s behavior, for example by overloading the open
function before it starts, or save the original STDOUT filehandle,
perhaps from a BEGIN block.
Good luck!
---ScottG.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:51:21 -0400
From: "perlnew" <nospam@nospam.tv>
Subject: receive data from form and inseri data in the database
Message-Id: <635815acbb801466c9696a5c8399fe11@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
I am try insert fields (turistobjekt adresa brojgrada grad etc.)
from submited form into MySQL database using CGI.pm, but I am too new with
Perl.. this is my try below..
any help here?
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
use strict;
use DBI();
use CGI;
my $q = CGI->new();
my %params = $q->Vars;
my @ordered_fields = qw(
turistobjekt adresa brojgrada grad manjemjesto
otok regija ime prezime tel
mob fax email username
password status
);
@params{ @ordered_fields }
# Connect to the database.
my $dbh = DBI->connect("DBI:mysql:database=crokrobaza;host=localhost",
"croapakro", "101010",
{'RaiseError' => 1});
$dbh->do("INSERT INTO portal (turistobjekt, adresa, brojgrada, grad,
manjemjesto, otok, regija, ime, prezime, tel, mob, fax, email, username,
password, status) VALUES ('@params{ @ordered_fields }')" or die
$dbh->errstr);
$dbh->disconnect();
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:36:19 GMT
From: Bob Walton <invalid-email@rochester.rr.com>
Subject: Re: receive data from form and inseri data in the database
Message-Id: <DkP%c.62524$Kt5.48350@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
perlnew wrote:
> I am try insert fields (turistobjekt adresa brojgrada grad etc.)
> from submited form into MySQL database using CGI.pm, but I am too new
with
> Perl.. this is my try below..
>
> any help here?
>
It looks like you have a good general start -- see comments below.
>
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl -w
Instead of -w on the command line,
use warnings;
is preferred these days.
> use strict;
> use DBI();
---------^^
You probably don't want the parens?
> use CGI;
>
>
>
> my $q = CGI->new();
> my %params = $q->Vars;
>
>
>
> my @ordered_fields = qw(
> turistobjekt adresa brojgrada grad manjemjesto
> otok regija ime prezime tel
> mob fax email username
> password status
> );
>
>
>
> @params{ @ordered_fields }
That won't compile (needs a semicolon at the end). Maybe it is intended
as a comment?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> # Connect to the database.
> my $dbh = DBI->connect("DBI:mysql:database=crokrobaza;host=localhost",
> "croapakro", "101010",
> {'RaiseError' => 1});
>
>
> $dbh->do("INSERT INTO portal (turistobjekt, adresa, brojgrada, grad,
> manjemjesto, otok, regija, ime, prezime, tel, mob, fax, email, username,
> password, status) VALUES ('@params{ @ordered_fields }')" or die
> $dbh->errstr);
>
Here, rather than a call to the ->do method, you probably want to call
the ->prepare method using placeholders for your data, then supply the
data using the ->execute method on the statement handle resulting from
the call to prepare. Something like [untested]:
my $sth=$dbh->prepare("INSERT INTO portal (turistobjekt, adresa,
brojgrada, grad, manjemjesto, otok, regija, ime, prezime, tel,
mob, fax, email, username, password, status)
VALUES (?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?,?)");
$sth->execute(@params{@ordered_fields});
Since you wisely used RaiseError, you shouldn't have to check for
successful completion.
This will also have the advantage of automagically quoting the
parameters so they won't generate SQL syntax errors if they contain
stuff that's syntactically significant to SQL. Note also that you can
provide multiple calls to ->execute to put additional records into the
table if that is required, without the necessity to ->prepare the SQL again.
>
>
> $dbh->disconnect();
>
>
HTH.
--
Bob Walton
Email: http://bwalton.com/cgi-bin/emailbob.pl
------------------------------
Date: 08 Sep 2004 16:32:26 -0700
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Replacing Ampertsand in cgi url
Message-Id: <86pt4wqqut.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
>>>>> "Jean" == Jean <jeanjerome@operamail.com> writes:
Jean> I have been trying this for hours without luck so far... Needless to
Jean> say my regular expression skills are bad...
Jean> I have some urls in an HTML page that have the amperstand sign (&) in
Jean> them, and I want to change only these amperstand into %26.
Jean> For example:
Jean> <a href="cgi-bin/test.cgi?var1=1&var=2">Bob & Paul</a> & Steve.
Jean> Should become:
Jean> <a href="cgi-bin/test.cgi?var1=1%26var=2">Bob & Paul</a> & Steve.
Why? That would be incorrect. You should be HTML-entitizing them,
or using an alternate delimiter (such as the recommended ";").
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:36:42 -0600
From: Bill <wherrera@lynxview.com>
Subject: Re: Sybase DBI Returned data query
Message-Id: <nqCdnUtHeu1WUqLcRVn-pg@adelphia.com>
Rob.Buxton@wcc.govt.nz wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've been struggling with this for a while so I'm hoping there'll will
> be someone who knows what I'm doing wrong.
>
> Perl 5.8.4, DBI 1.43, Sybase DBD 1.04. on Windows 2003.
>
> The script I'm running changes a Users Password in a Sybase Database.
> It's driven from a Web Page (IIS 6.0)
>
> The database connection works fine and the actual sth->execute does
> change the password via the sp_password stored procedure.
> Snippet of code below.
>
> my $query="execute sp_password '$PASSWORD', '$pass', '$name'";
> my $sth = $dbh->prepare(${query});
> $sth->execute;
>
> The problem is the sp_password generates a message:
> "Password correctly set." which seems to upset the Web Page as all I
> get is a CGI Error - The specified CGI application misbehaved by not
> returning a complete set of HTTP headers.
>
> If I run the script locally, it works fine.
>
> Is there anyway of catching the returned data from the sth->execute
> command before it hits the Web Server or of suppressing any returned
> data?
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> Rob
TMTOWTDI as usual:
1. Perl module innards style: the most direct way would be to turn off
the printing in the sp_password routine.
2. Unix style: you might try to redirect STDOUT and STDERR to null for
the query duration--make sure you flush first.
3. CGI style: make sure that you print a normal HTML header and some
sensible HTML (maybe with a comment beginning and end to encapsulate the
command output?) to display before and after making the query.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:38:51 -0700
From: "187" <bigal187@invalid.rx.eastcoasttfc.com>
Subject: Re: two's compliment?
Message-Id: <2q9qefFst1scU1@uni-berlin.de>
Anno Siegel wrote:
> 187 <bigal187@invalid.rx.eastcoasttfc.com> wrote in
> comp.lang.perl.misc:
>> Joe Smith wrote:
>>> 187 wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you for your reply. I udnerstand how it became overloaded,
>>> but
>>>> then why does this happen?
>>>>
>>>> print ~-31, "\n", ~30
>>>>
>>>> Output:
>>>>
>>>> 30
>>>> 4294967265
>>>>
>>>> Why does the 2nd statement not return -31? Is it Perl not wanting
>>>> to return a signed number? This seems rather incorrect,
>>>> mathimatically.
>>>
>>> In the first one, a signed 32-bit integer is treated as an unsigned
>>> 32-bit number, complemented, and displayed as an unsigned 32-bit
>>> number. In the second one, a positive signed 32-bit integer is
>>> already in
>>> the unsigned form, complemented, and displayed as an unsigned 32-bit
>>> number. Both are consistent in converting the input argument to
>>> a set of 32 bits and returning a set of 32 bits.
>>
>> Thank you, but why then do most calculators with a Not (TI's, like my
>> 86) / Complement function return -31 for Not 30 ?
>
> Why doesn't Perl behave exactly like your TI calculator? Probably
> because TI calculators were among the few things that were not used
> to model Perl's behavior. It's a design decision. The bit pattern
> is the same for 4294967265 and -31. You get to chose what to print.
So do I correctly understand that this basically comes down to weatyher
or not the end result is a signed number or not?
> If you want Perl to show the same behavior as your TI calculator,
> allow it to use the native integer representation for all numbers:
>
> perl -le 'print ~-31, "\n", ~30'
> 30
> 4294967265
>
> perl -Minteger -le 'print ~-31, "\n", ~30'
> 30
> -31
Addidtionaly I realized (as I finally got some on the long ride back
home this evening and for once am thinking clearly) that this code
(which identically works in C/C++)
printf("%d\n%d\n\n", ~-31, ~30);
printf("%u\n%u\n", ~-31, ~30);
30
-31
30
4294967265
Which furthur augments the signed/unsigned point.
>> This difference is what really baking my noodle here! :-)
>
> You seem to expect that for every arithmetic operation there is
> one and only one result. But that's not true with computer
> arithmetics. The internal representation (how many bits) and the
> interpretation (as signed or unsigned numbers) introduce arbitrary
> factors that can influence the outcome.
Well, thats not exactly what I was getting at, which would be how to do
the equivilent of casting signed and unsigned forcibly like you would in
C/C++, and you've shown a way of doing that, thanks :)
And true, the way I used my example, a print statement, in that matter
it comes down to *how* you print this given value.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:36:49 GMT
From: iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen)
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <413f6044.512285562@News.individual.net>
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:29:04 -0700, Alan Balmer <albalmer@att.net>
wrote:
>On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:49:18 GMT, gwschenk@fuzz.socal.rr.com (Gary
>Schenk) wrote:
>
[...]
>>Don't you dittoheads ever get your facts right?
>
>
>What's a "dittohead"? Are you trying to convey a personal insult of
>some kind? Please let me know, so I can call you a name, too.
A "dittohead" is someone who regularly listens to and agrees with Rush
Limbaugh (popular conservative U.S. radio talk show host). It is a
tradition that callers on his show (at least those that agree with
him) start their call with something like "Country redneck dittos to
you, Rush," or "Hey, Rush, blues-pickin' Cajun dittos" before
launching into the subject of their call. It is intended to be an
insult implying the "dittoheads" don't have any thoughts of their own,
but merely are told what to think (probably by Rush), and do so. The
"dittoheads" have embraced the moniker but not the implication, seeing
the insult as an act of desperation attacking the person (ad hominem)
rather than addressing the issues.
FWIW, I listen to Rush because he's the most entertaining thing on the
radio during my lunch hour, but I don't agree with him often enough to
be a dittohead.
ObPython: Rush could have been the basis of a great Monty Python skit.
AFWIW, My youngest nephew (5 months old) is named for his father. My
sister doesn't want him known as "Junior," so she is contemplating the
nickname "Ditto."
ObPerl: There really _is_ more than one way to do it.
ObUnix: Max OS X has a "ditto" command that's the same as "cp" only
different.
ObLisp: I can't think of a thing. Weclome to afc thread drift...
Regards,
-=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:01:39 -0600
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <un000uufg.fsf@mail.comcast.net>
"John Thingstad" <john.thingstad@chello.no> writes:
> Internet was discovered long before this. (In 1965 a research
> project, by the Rand cooperation, for a network that could survive a
> nuclear attack. Sponsored by DARPA. These is the real creators of
> the Internet technology. Not Unix hackers.) It was the realization
> of www (CERN) that spawned the movement toward the Internet.
>
> So the year in question is about 1987.
packet networking was "discovered" in the 60s(?) ... but it was
homogeneous networking with pretty much homogeneous infrastructure
implementation.
the great switch-over to internetworking protocol was 1/1/83. i've
frequently asserted that one of the reasons that the internal network
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
was larger than the arpanet from just about the beginning until
sometime mid-85 ... was because the internal network nodes effectively
had a form of gateway functionality ... which showed up in the
internetworking protocol switchover on 1/1/83.
packet switching technology for the (homogeneous) arpanet is somewhat
orthogonal to internetworking protocol technology .... which was
deployed in the great switchover on 1/1/83.
some minor other references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm
CERN and SLAC were sister sites, did some amount of common tool
development, used common infrastructures and were big GML users
.... which had been done at the science center circa 1970
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
which morphed into SGML and then html, xml, etc. SLAC had the first
web server outside of europe .... running on vm/cms system
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml
the distinction of internetworking protocol isn't packet switching
... it is gateways and interoperability of lots of different kinds of
networking.
OSI can support x.25 packet switching and/or even the arpanet packet
switching from the 60s & 70s .... but it precludes internetworking
protocol. internetworking protocol (aka internet for short) is a
(non-existant) layer in an OSI protocol stack between
layer3/networking and layer4/transport. misc. osi (& other) comments
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#xtphsp
the switch-over to internetworking protocol on 1/1/83 somewhat also
coincided with the expanding role of csnet activity ... and more &
more NSF involvement .... compared to the extensive earlier arpa/darpa
involvement; aka csnet ... and then nsfnet1 backbone rfp and then
nsfnet2 enhanced backbone rfp.
misc. internet and nsfnet related history pointers:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietf.htm#history
the proliferation of the internetworking protocol and use in the
commercial sector was also happening during the 80s .... which you
could start to see by (1988) at the interop '88 show. misc. interop
'88 references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#interop88
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:22:56 -0600
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <uisaoutfz.fsf@mail.comcast.net>
Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> writes:
> Since I am on a roll with timelines; just one off the top of my head :
>
> Project start : 1964
> First link : 1969
> Transatlantic : 1972 (to Britain and Norway)
> Congested : 1976
> TCP/IP : 1983 (the effort started 1979) (sort of a 2.0 version)
> First ISP : 1983 (uunet, EUnet followed next year)
> Nework Separation : 1983 (milnet broke out)
> Large-scale design: 1987 (NSFnet, but still only T3/T1's)
> Fully commercial : 1991 (WIth the "CIX War")
> Web launced : 1992
> Web got momentum : 1994
> Dotcom bubble : 1999 (but it provided enough bandwith for the first time)
> Dotcom burst : 2001
nsfnet1 backbone RFP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#12
misc. reference to award announcement
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#10
was for backbone between regional locations ... it was suppose to be
T1 links. What was installed was IDNX boxes that supported
point-to-point T1 links between sites ... and multiplexed 440kbit
links supported by racks & racks of PC/RTs with 440kbit boards ... at
the backbone centers.
the t3 upgrades came with the nsfnet2 backbone RFP
my wife and i somewhat got to be the red team design for both nsfnet1
and nsfnet2 RFPs.
note that there was commercial internetworking protocol use long
before 1991 ... in part evidence the heavy commercial turn-out at
interop '88
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#interop88
the issue leading up to the cix war was somewhat whether commercial
traffic could be carried over the nsf funded backbone .... the
internetworking protocol enabling the interconnection and heterogenous
interoperability of large numbers of different "internet" networks.
part of the issue was that increasing commercial use was starting to
bring down the costs (volume use) .... so that a purely nsfnet
operation was becomming less and less economically justified (the cost
for a nsfnet only operation was more costly and less service than what
was starting to show up in the commercial side).
part of the issue was that there was significant dark fiber in the
ground by the early 80s and the telcos were faced with a significant
dilemma .... if the dropped the bandwidth price by a factor of 20
and/or offerred up 20 times the bandwidth at the same cost .... it was
be years before the applications were availability to drive the
bandwdith costs to the point where they were taking in sufficient
funds to cover their fixed operating costs. so some of the things you
saw happening were controlled bandwidth donations (in excess of what
might be found covered by gov. RFPs) to educational institutions by
large commercial institutions .... for strictly non-commercial use
Such enourmous increases in bandwidth availability in a controlled
manner for the educational market would hopefully promote the
development of bandwidth hungry applications. They (supposedly) got
tax-deduction for their educational-only donations .... and it
wouldn't be made available for the commercial paying customers.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:08:30 -0600
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <uacw0urc1.fsf@mail.comcast.net>
Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> writes:
> Since I am on a roll with timelines; just one off the top of my head :
>
> Project start : 1964
> First link : 1969
> Transatlantic : 1972 (to Britain and Norway)
> Congested : 1976
> TCP/IP : 1983 (the effort started 1979) (sort of a 2.0 version)
> First ISP : 1983 (uunet, EUnet followed next year)
> Nework Separation : 1983 (milnet broke out)
> Large-scale design: 1987 (NSFnet, but still only T3/T1's)
> Fully commercial : 1991 (WIth the "CIX War")
> Web launced : 1992
> Web got momentum : 1994
> Dotcom bubble : 1999 (but it provided enough bandwith for the first time)
> Dotcom burst : 2001
oh, and here is a recent referenct to some bitnet activity:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004k.html#66
in the listserv history section
some general bitnet/earn posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet
more than 20 year old email reference about earn
http://www.garlic.com.~lynn/2001h.hytml#65
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
------------------------------
Date: 08 Sep 04 18:50:12 -0800
From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <1712.747T640T11304157@kltpzyxm.invalid>
In article <413f6044.512285562@News.individual.net>, iddw@hotmail.com
(Dave Hansen) writes:
>A "dittohead" is someone who regularly listens to and agrees with Rush
>Limbaugh (popular conservative U.S. radio talk show host). It is a
>tradition that callers on his show (at least those that agree with
>him) start their call with something like "Country redneck dittos to
>you, Rush," or "Hey, Rush, blues-pickin' Cajun dittos" before
>launching into the subject of their call.
The way I heard it (which I can't confirm since I've never actually
listened to Limbaugh's show) is that so many people were calling
in to say what amounted to nothing more than "I agree with you"
that Rush himself suggested they just say "ditto" to save time.
Thus were "dittoheads" born.
>ObPython: Rush could have been the basis of a great Monty Python skit.
What a thought! That _would_ be fun. Eric Idle, are you reading this?
>ObUnix: Max OS X has a "ditto" command that's the same as "cp" only
>different.
Wasn't "ditto" the name of one of those console-driven mainframe
utilities that would copy anything to anything? (Another version
was known as DEBE, which stood for "Does Everything But Eat".)
I got my hands on some source code and got one working on the Univac
9400 and 90/30. Thanks to our convention of prefixing such utility
program names with "UV" (for Univac Vancouver), it wound up being
called UVDITO (so that it would fit into the 6-character name limit).
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 6977
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