[24817] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 6970 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Sep 7 11:11:32 2004
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 7 Sep 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 6970
Today's topics:
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <barbr-en_delete_@online.no.invalid>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 04 11:30:43 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <413daee5$0$6932$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <1s4ihc.4i4.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>,
Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote:
>In article <413c5b9c$0$19705$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,
> <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <rv1hhc.mtv2.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>,
>> Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote:
>>>In article <413af268$0$19706$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,
>>> <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>In article <20040904.2231.57679snz@dsl.co.uk>,
>>>> bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
>>>>>On Thursday, in article
>>>>> <41371e5c$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> jmfbahciv@aol.com
>>>>> wrote:
>
>>>VMS was too early, and was made too politically correct.
>>>
>>>TCP/IP was NOT politically correct until around 1996 or so.
>>>TPTB wanted OSI, GOSIP/Decnet Phase 5 and all that crud, until we
>>>Internet people hammered them.
>>>
>>>>>Indeed, it took many years before DEC [sorry, by then it was already
>>>>>d|i|g|i|t|a|l] had a TCP/IP stack available for VMS --- the dreaded
heap
>>>>>of quivering jelly created by the Eunice idiots.
>>>>>
>>>>>Before that, people who needed TCP/IP on a Vax used various
third-party
>>>>>solutions, such as the implementations from Carnegie-Mellon (CMU)
>>>>
>>>>Sigh! If CMU had it, I would have assumed it got hornshoed into
>>>>VMS.
>>>
>>>Wrong mindset. TCP/IP was never a DEC invention, much less a D I G I T A
L
>>>one.
>>
>>It didn't have to be a DEC invention. If it was CMU, we got it
>>shoved down our throats and up our asses. However, I see
>>that the dates explain why TCP/IP didn't get into VMS.
>>Apparently the protocol got good after Gordon Bell left DEC.
>
>1995 was the year everyone and Bill Gates discovered the Internet
>existed; and wanted in on the deal. Suddenly everyone needed Internet
>solutions.
I knew the Internet existed when I started reading the ads in the
WSJ and they had this strange arrangement of characters that
began with www. At first, there were only a few. _One_ year
later there were lot. Less than two years later, everybody had
one. I watch ads to foretell trends.
>
>>Since TCP/IP was in the 90s, I couldn't have heard about it
>>over the wall (I think I stopped working in 1987). I could
>>swear that cybercurd meant something.
>>
>>ISTR, the -20 types yakking about it.
>
>TCP/IP was launched in 1982, and the Internet (or the Arpanet, rather)
>converted Jan 1st 1983; with final NCP service turned off everywhere
>by mid march 1983.
Aha! Whew! Then my memory isn't completely gone. If it was
launched in 1982, then they had to have been yakking about it
in 1980 and 1981.
>
>Tops20 has an IP package; but it was pretty rudimentary in version 4,
>and not quite complete even by those standards even in version 7.
Version 4 and version 7 were way after 1980.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 04 11:36:55 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <413db059$0$6932$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <opsdxecgt8pqzri1@mjolner.upc.no>,
"John Thingstad" <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:56:33 +0200, Morten Reistad
><firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote:
>
>> In article <413c5b9c$0$19705$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,
>> <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>> TCP/IP was launched in 1982, and the Internet (or the Arpanet, rather)
>> converted Jan 1st 1983; with final NCP service turned off everywhere
>> by mid march 1983.
>>
>> Tops20 has an IP package; but it was pretty rudimentary in version 4,
>> and not quite complete even by those standards even in version 7.
>>
>> .. mrr
>>
>>
>
>Internet was discovered long before this.
WTF do you mean "discovered". There was a hell of alot of
work done to make the damned thing work, let along wire
things together.
>(In 1965 a research project, by the Rand cooperation, for a network that
>could survive a nuclear attack. Sponsored by DARPA.
>These is the real creators of the Internet technology. Not Unix hackers.)
You need to learn that there is a big difference between a research
project and selling the product for the sole purpose of making
a profit.
>It was the realization of www (CERN) that spawned
>the movement toward the >Internet.
>So the year in question is about 1987.
How strange that is. JMF worked on a project a ORNL to make
all kinds of computers talk to each other. The year was 1970.
My first meeting with a PDP-10 involved calling up the comuputer
and, when it answered, hurriedly shoving the phone into the
acoustic coupler before the computer hung up. That year was
1969.
The internet was around for me in the 60s.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 04 11:38:54 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <413db0d0$0$6932$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <2q4skjFrb6p1U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote:
>In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0409062355010.20478@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk> on
>Monday 06 September 2004 18:55, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, John Thingstad wrote:
>>
>>> It was the realization of www (CERN) that spawned the movement toward
the
>>> Internet.
>>
>> Eh?
>
>A simple case of cart/horse inversion, methinks.
If only that were true. It's a case of magically going
from crawling to popping the clutch without knowing that
the engine got started with a key by somebody.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:34:32 +0100
From: "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0409071415020.21175@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk>
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
--616733697-1790690609-1094564072=:21175
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Kåre Olai Lindbach wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:55:28 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"
> <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, John Thingstad wrote:
> >
> >> It was the realization of www (CERN) that spawned the movement toward the
> >> Internet.
> >
> >Eh?
>
> http://www.hitmill.com/internet/web_history.asp
> Or rather the history of Tim Berners-Lee.
Try http://www.w3.org/History.html
I'm sorry - I didn't really mean to trap anyone into trying to
teach Great-Uncle Alan how to suck eggs.
It's just that those of us who had /some/ contact with the original
developments (and mine was fairly tenuous, I confess) would have told
the story of the development of the /Internet/ quite differently. But
I leave that to other "old farts" who are already posting their
versions ;-)
I've no disagreement that the availability of a graphical web browser
was -one- of the driving forces towards wider access to and
commercialisation of the Internet. But that didn't emerge on any kind
of scale until 1994-ish and later.
"Eternal September" dates from 1993. To toss just another data point
into the ring.
--616733697-1790690609-1094564072=:21175--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:57:24 GMT
From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <qsdrj0dl4qi558bopev159fg4m7rn6mfoq@4ax.com>
On Mon, 06 Sep 04 11:23:17 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>In article <rv1hhc.mtv2.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>,
> Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote:
>>In article <413af268$0$19706$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,
>> <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>>In article <20040904.2231.57679snz@dsl.co.uk>,
>>> bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
>>>>On Thursday, in article
>>>> <41371e5c$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> jmfbahciv@aol.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <2mmdj0t6mjgif88en11skbo3n8uiuj46nc@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>>>> >MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
>>>>> >NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
>>>>>
>>>>> All right. Now I'm mystified. Why did they have to borrow code
>>>>> from Unix? They already had VMS. ISTM, VMS had all of the
>>>>> above.
>>>>
>>>>VMS (originally) most decidedly did NOT have either TCP/IP or NFS.
>>>
>>>I thought VMS did get TCP/IP into it. I don't know anything about
>>>NFS.
>>
>>VMS was too early, and was made too politically correct.
>>
>>TCP/IP was NOT politically correct until around 1996 or so.
>>TPTB wanted OSI, GOSIP/Decnet Phase 5 and all that crud, until we
>>Internet people hammered them.
>>
>>>>Indeed, it took many years before DEC [sorry, by then it was already
>>>>d|i|g|i|t|a|l] had a TCP/IP stack available for VMS --- the dreaded heap
>>>>of quivering jelly created by the Eunice idiots.
I was never aware that DEC offered TCP/IP.
>>>>Before that, people who needed TCP/IP on a Vax used various third-party
>>>>solutions, such as the implementations from Carnegie-Mellon (CMU)
The commercialized product from T[he]W[ollongong]G[roup] and TGV
MultiNet seemed to be ubiquitous.
Both products seemed to operate application level protocols very much
in leaf node store and forward mode, rather than supporting routing or
passthru, on VMS.
>>>Sigh! If CMU had it, I would have assumed it got hornshoed into
>>>VMS.
>>
>>Wrong mindset. TCP/IP was never a DEC invention, much less a D I G I T A L
>>one.
IIRC there was a majority of PDP-10s running on ARPAnet (1982 and
earlier) and later TCP/IP (1983 on), but most may have been running
Tenex, as BBN was running the network.
>It didn't have to be a DEC invention. If it was CMU, we got it
>shoved down our throats and up our asses. However, I see
>that the dates explain why TCP/IP didn't get into VMS.
Politics and not timing was why TCP/IP didn't get into VMS:
d|i|g|i|t|a|l backed the European horse that never ran as it fitted
better with their network hardware capabilities and DECnet plans.
It also meant they did not have to deal with those BBN guys that had
developed a competing OS and network.
They had whole suites of products layered on top of DECnet that were
sold to European governments and contractors.
They bet that the ISO and governments couldn't be wrong and they
wouldn't lose out, but they did, as did IBM with SNA networks.
>Apparently the protocol got good after Gordon Bell left DEC.
TCP/IP didn't get better, but the implementations of OSI networking
performed badly and did not interoperate, so TCP/IP swept the
networking competition off the board, and that may have had an
influence on his departure.
>Since TCP/IP was in the 90s, I couldn't have heard about it
>over the wall (I think I stopped working in 1987). I could
>swear that cybercurd meant something.
WWW was in the 90s, as was allowing commercial access to and
competition to operate the Internet backbone, so it became a must have
for the previously clueless, like digital and MS.
>ISTR, the -20 types yakking about it.
BBN and Tenex heritage probably.
--
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
fake address use address above to reply
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:51:39 +0200
From: Kåre Olai Lindbach <barbr-en_delete_@online.no.invalid>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <uthrj0t1rbr6q3hh8rf1ou09nsqni1p44j@4ax.com>
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:34:32 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"
<flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Kåre Olai Lindbach wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:55:28 +0100, "Alan J. Flavell"
>> <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, John Thingstad wrote:
>> >
>> >> It was the realization of www (CERN) that spawned the movement toward the
>> >> Internet.
>> >
>> >Eh?
>>
>> http://www.hitmill.com/internet/web_history.asp
>
>> Or rather the history of Tim Berners-Lee.
>
>Try http://www.w3.org/History.html
>
>I'm sorry - I didn't really mean to trap anyone into trying to
>teach Great-Uncle Alan how to suck eggs.
I wasn't! I know you have been along for a long time. It was merely a
link to the above www/CERN thing.
I must admit I got a bit uncertain with your "Eh?". I should have done
my original first reply: "Eh? to what?" ;-)
>It's just that those of us who had /some/ contact with the original
>developments (and mine was fairly tenuous, I confess) would have told
>the story of the development of the /Internet/ quite differently. But
>I leave that to other "old farts" who are already posting their
>versions ;-)
But can you please give some brief points. I would like to hear some
more about this...
>I've no disagreement that the availability of a graphical web browser
>was -one- of the driving forces towards wider access to and
>commercialisation of the Internet. But that didn't emerge on any kind
>of scale until 1994-ish and later.
I also did connections through X.25 back in late 80ties, so I know
about pre-GUI stuff.
>"Eternal September" dates from 1993. To toss just another data point
>into the ring.
Yes, I remember when we got ordinary connection at work, using
GUI-browsers and stuff!
--
mvh/Regards Kåre Olai Lindbach
(News: Remove '_delete_' and '.invalid')
(HTML-written email from unknown will be discarded)
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 6970
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