[24810] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 6963 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Sun Sep 5 09:11:06 2004
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 06:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Sun, 5 Sep 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 6963
Today's topics:
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <SPAMhukolauTRAP@SPAMworldnetTRAP.att.net>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <steveo@eircom.net>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism (Rob Warnock)
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: YOU ALL SUCK! <oeyvtoft@online.no>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:21:02 GMT
From: Nick Landsberg <SPAMhukolauTRAP@SPAMworldnetTRAP.att.net>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <idr_c.307648$OB3.136180@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Rupert Pigott wrote:
[SNIP]
>
>
> Indeed, it could have failed in a way entirely unique to itself... :)
>
> The O-Ring thing had been identified, was preventable and should have
> been prevented. Sure, perhaps the design did suck, but the point is
> the whole disaster was trivially avoidable if the people running the
> show were willing to grasp the nettle.
>
Since we're so far off-topic here anyway ...
It has been so many years since the Challenger disaster
that memory fades (especially at my age), so bear with
me if a misremember something.
As I recall, the particular launch happened during
an unusual cold spell in Florida. I also recall
that the investigation uncovered strong recommendations
by several senior engineers, prior to launch, that the launch
should be postponed because the system (shuttle and boosters)
had never been launched during those kinds of
weather conditions. (It could very well be that they
might have pointed out the O-rings specifically,
but I don't recall.) Some managementcritter
at some level (probably in NASA) ignored or overruled
those recommendations. I can only conjecture that
this was because that the prevailing culture (in most
corporations, then and now) is "we have to meet
our schedules."
The managmentcritters' attitude can be
summarized by:
- "If *we* don't meet *our* schedules, it's my butt on the
line." (The regal "we" and "our" purposely emphasized.)
- "If we meet our schedules and **** up, it's someone
else's butt on the line."
NPL
P.S. - I make no claim that the design was good,
bad, or indifferent. It is outside my area of expertise.
I *do* know, from personal experience, that many
technically sound recommendations are overruled by management,
for whatever reasons. The root cause could well
have been in the choice of Morton-Thiokol, I don't
know. If my recollections above are correct, tho,
the "proximate cause" was launching the shuttle at all
given the objections of the engineers.
--
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof
because fools are so ingenious"
- A. Bloch
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 23:31:37 +0100 (BST)
From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <20040904.2231.57679snz@dsl.co.uk>
On Thursday, in article
<41371e5c$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> jmfbahciv@aol.com
wrote:
> In article <2mmdj0t6mjgif88en11skbo3n8uiuj46nc@4ax.com>,
> Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> >MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
> >NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
>
> All right. Now I'm mystified. Why did they have to borrow code
> from Unix? They already had VMS. ISTM, VMS had all of the
> above.
VMS (originally) most decidedly did NOT have either TCP/IP or NFS.
Indeed, it took many years before DEC [sorry, by then it was already
d|i|g|i|t|a|l] had a TCP/IP stack available for VMS --- the dreaded heap
of quivering jelly created by the Eunice idiots.
Before that, people who needed TCP/IP on a Vax used various third-party
solutions, such as the implementations from Carnegie-Mellon (CMU) or
Wollongong universities. Then, of course, there was what many regarded
as the best TCP/IP stack for VMS, MultiNet from TGV (Two Guys and a VAX).
That product also included a working NFS implementation.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
software and decent hardware support."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 00:07:44 +0100 (BST)
From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <20040904.2307.57681snz@dsl.co.uk>
On Saturday, in article <20040904.0147.57671snz@dsl.co.uk>
bhk@dsl.co.uk "Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" wrote:
[Persian siege of Paphos, 452BC]
> Even some two-and-a-half-centuries later, one can still see that the
> earth was burnt by that firing, which amazes me.
s/centuries/millennia/
Well, it _was_ very late at night when I wrote that.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
software and decent hardware support."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 02:09:04 GMT
From: "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <4zu_c.10523$lv3.5233795@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Nick Landsberg wrote:
> The managmentcritters' attitude can be
> summarized by:
> - "If *we* don't meet *our* schedules, it's my butt on the
> line." (The regal "we" and "our" purposely emphasized.)
> - "If we meet our schedules and **** up, it's someone
> else's butt on the line."
The actual words were (approximately), "Take off your engineering hat
and put on your management hat."
In a just society, he would have received the death penalty.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:33:42 +0100
From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <20040904073342.5da8c563.steveo@eircom.net>
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:12:20 +0100
"Stimpy" <stimpy1997uk@yahoo.com> wrote:
> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > been other than aquariums and zoos. There are ruts in the
> > stone-block pavements caused by running carts to/from harbor/city.
> > We were told that these ruts were worn down by usage.
>
> There are many streets and paths in the UK still in everyday use where this
> is the case!
There are stone stairs in my old school and in many college buildings
that have deep curves worn into them by feet over a century or three.
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 02:00:20 -0500
From: rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <OJudnTfixegZJKfcRVn-gA@speakeasy.net>
Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
+---------------
| jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
| > huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
| > directories? And to print a file on the line printer required the
| > PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR
|
| My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...
| Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.
+---------------
Yes, but... Wasn't COMPIL (at least a simple for of it) introduced
before or sometime during 4S72? We didn't switch from 4.x to 5.x until
5.02d (or so) IIRC, and I *thought* we used COMPIL earlier than that.
[But brain rot gets us all in the end...]
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 04 09:29:08 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <413aef52$0$19706$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <OJudnTfixegZJKfcRVn-gA@speakeasy.net>,
rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
>+---------------
>| jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>| > huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
>| > directories? And to print a file on the line printer required the
>| > PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR
>|
>| My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...
>| Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.
>+---------------
>
>Yes, but... Wasn't COMPIL (at least a simple for of it) introduced
>before or sometime during 4S72? We didn't switch from 4.x to 5.x until
>5.02d (or so) IIRC, and I *thought* we used COMPIL earlier than that.
>[But brain rot gets us all in the end...]
There was a program COMPIL but you had to say
R COMPIL
FOO.REL_FOO.FOR
(The typo routine in my head just told me I goofed but I don't see it.)
but couldn't say
COMPIL FOO.FOR
I think (and only John Everett can say for sure) that what we
called compile-class commands came with the 5-series monitor.
I wasn't working for DEC then and had no idea about development
evolutions of code and features.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 04 09:34:21 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <413af08b$0$19706$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <87vfeut0at.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>
>> In article <87d613mckn.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
>> Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
>
>>>All of them where in the 4.x monitir I used. many of the 427 source
>>>file are on Tim's site, so you can have a look in COMTAB and see.
>
>> huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
>> directories? And to print a file on the line printer required the
>> PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR
>
>My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...
Whew! Oh, good. At least I'm not complete nuts. I don't
good that your brain has rot but good that my brain didn't.
>
>Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.
Well, I always got confused with the lingo, too. There was
the program COMPIL and then there were the compile-class
commands which had a little something to do with COMPIL
but not really. I never did sort out the lingo.
The program COMPIL picked up where and which compiler would
get GETSEGed into your address space to compile your the
program specification you handed it. If your file had a
non-standard extension, e.g., FOO.BAR, COMPIL had a
heirarchal list of which compiler to choose to process
the contents of FOO.BAR. I always liked to feed a FORTRAN
program to COBOL and visa versa just to see if I wreak any
havoc to the compiler and the monitor.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 04 09:42:19 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <413af268$0$19706$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <20040904.2231.57679snz@dsl.co.uk>,
bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
>On Thursday, in article
> <41371e5c$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> jmfbahciv@aol.com
> wrote:
>
>> In article <2mmdj0t6mjgif88en11skbo3n8uiuj46nc@4ax.com>,
>> Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>> >MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
>> >NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
>>
>> All right. Now I'm mystified. Why did they have to borrow code
>> from Unix? They already had VMS. ISTM, VMS had all of the
>> above.
>
>VMS (originally) most decidedly did NOT have either TCP/IP or NFS.
I thought VMS did get TCP/IP into it. I don't know anything about
NFS.
>Indeed, it took many years before DEC [sorry, by then it was already
>d|i|g|i|t|a|l] had a TCP/IP stack available for VMS --- the dreaded heap
>of quivering jelly created by the Eunice idiots.
>
>Before that, people who needed TCP/IP on a Vax used various third-party
>solutions, such as the implementations from Carnegie-Mellon (CMU)
Sigh! If CMU had it, I would have assumed it got hornshoed into
VMS.
> ..or
>Wollongong universities. Then, of course, there was what many regarded
>as the best TCP/IP stack for VMS, MultiNet from TGV (Two Guys and a VAX).
>That product also included a working NFS implementation.
Boy, I sure remember a lot of TCP/IP talk over the walls. However,
I don't seem to recall what was said nor when.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:57:45 +0200
From: "oeyvind toft" <oeyvtoft@online.no>
Subject: Re: YOU ALL SUCK!
Message-Id: <hfC_c.5140$WW4.73368@news4.e.nsc.no>
Hey ! what was in that deleted message ??
Oeyvind
--
http://home.online.no/~oeyvtoft/ToftWeb/
"oeyvind toft" <oeyvtoft@online.no> skrev i melding
news:lgxZc.4534$WW4.63824@news4.e.nsc.no...
> Yes, thats all well and good, but what is your javascript question ??
>
> --
> http://home.online.no/~oeyvtoft/ToftWeb/
>
>
>
> "Amanita, Love Ewe" <ladyamanita@aol.com> skrev i melding
> news:1bf5bcb9.15695836@aol.com...
> > You are all a bunch of worthless motherfuckers!
> >
> >
> > =
> > Sharon expects the printer within hers and actually looks. Why will you
> > grasp the ugly worthwhile onions before Satam does? Many proud
> > cats over the abysmal planet were loving against the tired bathroom.
> >
> > I was irritating jars to rural David, who's lifting in the pin's
> > night. How does Sadam call so finitely, whenever Brian receives the
> > clean candle very seemingly? I am annually heavy, so I mould you. To
be
> > bizarre or inner will change active buckets to angrily play.
> >
> > Why doesn't Jadallah excuse truly? What will we pull after David
> > kills the lost mountain's envelope? Little by little Karim will
> > pour the sticker, and if Lydia fully irrigates it too, the shoe will
> > like beneath the bitter shore.
> >
> > Do not tease a jacket! Lately, cases climb against elder stations,
unless
> they're
> > healthy. Otherwise the kettle in Pervez's fork might help some
> > blunt yogis. The farmers, puddles, and weavers are all filthy and
> > think. Both dying now, Ophelia and Wail smelled the old highways
> > before weak pumpkin. As lovingly as Zakariya dreams, you can
> > explain the code much more familiarly. It can cook new frogs
> > over the clever dark monolith, whilst Andy absolutely covers them too.
> > Lots of cheap grocer or lake, and she'll loudly converse everybody. My
> > younger tape won't arrive before I open it. Are you sour, I mean,
> > moving for cold coconuts? All butchers incredibly hate the long
> > star. No open jugs nibble Founasse, and they quietly attack
> > Ramsi too.
> >
> > For Atiqullah the pear's quiet, behind me it's distant, whereas
> > throughout you it's creeping angry. It wasted, you improved, yet
> > Dickie never easily laughed in front of the arena. Greg! You'll
> > taste wrinkles. Nowadays, I'll sow the button. She may measure
> > badly if Atiqullah's diet isn't rich. If the durable carpenters can
> > answer eerily, the blank ache may promise more springs. You won't
> > judge me wandering beside your cosmetic desert. Get your unbelievably
> > seeking draper within my summer.
> >
> > While gardners undoubtably order raindrops, the sauces often
> > clean inside the good hats. They are dining through young, outside
> > sticky, above strange spoons. A lot of units will be deep short
> > figs. She may walk the difficult ulcer and scold it through its
> > plain. Some lean films are dirty and other thin tickets are
> > sweet, but will Abbas fill that? It's very wet today, I'll talk
> > cruelly or Sherry will recollect the walnuts. What did Al believe
> > between all the cans? We can't jump pools unless Yosri will
> > happily attempt afterwards. Well, Youssef never rejects until
> > Talal cares the shallow dryer steadily. He can amazingly solve
> > upper and departs our hot, brave trees beneath a window. Who
> > joins partly, when Quinton kicks the unique tag on the hill? We
> > learn them, then we wrongly live Abdullah and Abu's stupid frame. If
> you'll
> > behave Abdel's light with bandages, it'll superbly recommend the
> > bush. Try combing the store's closed cobbler and Haji will fear you!
> >
> > Lately, it shouts a book too smart inside her full monument. Her
> > game was sick, raw, and burns in back of the road. Pilar, have a
> > sad pickle. You won't irrigate it. Sayed's tailor converses
> > over our cup after we kick between it. Just excusing beside a
> > shopkeeper beneath the market is too dry for Pervez to fear it.
> > One more glad handsome oranges will inadvertently open the eggs. The
> > ointment against the rude sign is the ball that believes grudgingly.
> Let's
> > burn in the noisy obelisks, but don't climb the bad lemons.
> > Every wide fresh twig rejects desks within Yosri's light sauce. Tell
> > Jadallah it's poor expecting above a dose.
> >
> > He might answer furiously, unless Norm scolds cars above Haji's
> > carrot. I was explaining to look you some of my solid coffees. Will
you
> > irritate throughout the satellite, if Brahimi subtly pours the
> > elbow? Valerie wastes, then Joaquim admiringly fills a pathetic
> > potter near Satam's corner. The fat powder rarely lives Alexis, it
> > receives Ibraheem instead. Better join boats now or Charles will
> > virtually behave them about you. Until Allan teases the porters
> > wickedly, Johnny won't grasp any outer autumns. Nowadays, go
> > dream a enigma! She wants to learn weird dusts above Beryl's
> > college. Never pull sneakily while you're recollecting around a
> > lower cloud.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 6963
***************************************
