[24786] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 6939 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Aug 31 18:13:53 2004
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 31 Aug 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 6939
Today's topics:
Xah Lee's Unixism <news@finseth.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <ville@spammers.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <rich.teer@rite-group.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <shannon@news.widomaker.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <no.spam@here.dude>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <amajorel@teezer.fr>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <scobloke2@infotop.co.uk>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <me@privacy.net>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 31 Aug 2004 16:06:31 GMT
From: Craig A. Finseth <news@finseth.com>
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <4134a207$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
In article <du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>,
Ville Vainio <ville@spammers.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne@attglobal.net> writes:
>
> John> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator. Ever since
> John> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
> John> a Unix clone.
>
>With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf line
>breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
>programs (which think / is for command line options).
>
>Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
>have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the release
...
Wrong. The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?). Consider the "PIP" command.
When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
that "/" was already taken, so they used "\". But there was a hidden
way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.
And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
and "\" interchangably.
Craig, who wrote a lot of code for CP/M, MS-DOS 1* and Later....
------------------------------
Date: 31 Aug 2004 18:56:18 +0300
From: Ville Vainio <ville@spammers.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
>>>>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne@attglobal.net> writes:
John> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator. Ever since
John> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
John> a Unix clone.
With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf line
breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
programs (which think / is for command line options).
Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the release
& future integration of SFU. Migrating ppl from Unix probably *is*
easier when you are not doing your best to make interoperability as
painful as possible.
--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:49:36 GMT
From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <4134AC88.56452265@yahoo.com>
Ville Vainio wrote:
>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne@attglobal.net> writes:
>
>> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator. Ever since
>> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
>> a Unix clone.
>
> With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf
> line breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their
> cmd line programs (which think / is for command line options).
>
> Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea,
> and have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the
> release & future integration of SFU. Migrating ppl from Unix
> probably *is* easier when you are not doing your best to make
> interoperability as painful as possible.
Dump Notepad and get Textpad. www.textpad.com. First class.
--
"Churchill and Bush can both be considered wartime leaders, just
as Secretariat and Mr Ed were both horses." - James Rhodes.
"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad
morals. We now know that it is bad economics" - FDR
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:49:59 GMT
From: Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408310949330.1813@zaphod.rite-group.com>
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, John W. Kennedy wrote:
> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator. Ever since 2.0, MS has
> been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
... And has failed miserably to do so.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:03:43 -0400
From: Charles Shannon Hendrix <shannon@news.widomaker.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <vg72hc.89m.ln@escape.goid.lan>
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.folklore.computers.]
> I'd expect to get these complaints indeed from people who drove it,
> but I'd be puzzled if they'd continued to drive it every day.
Um... maybe it's paid for?
I use things daily that I hate... I can't afford to replace them.
Maybe if the people had no *plans* to replace the Explorer, or they
turned around and bought yet another one, I could see your point.
--
shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- [There is a limit to how stupid people really
are -- just as there's a limit to the amount of hydrogen in the Universe.
There's a lot, but there's a limit. -- Dave C. Barber on a.f.c. ]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:43:34 GMT
From: red floyd <no.spam@here.dude>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
CBFalconer wrote:
> Dump Notepad and get Textpad. www.textpad.com. First class.
>
Let the editor flame wars begin!
Get gvim! www.vim.org
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:21:20 +0000 (UTC)
From: Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <slrncj9fpg.r0.amajorel@vulcain.knox.com>
On 2004-08-31, Craig A Finseth <news@finseth.com> wrote:
> The / was chosen as the command line option separator because whoever
> wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands after a
> PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).
Whoever = Tim Paterson, then working for Seattle Computer
Products. Interesting historical stuff at
http://www.patersontech.com/Dos/
--
André Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:30:38 +0000 (UTC)
From: Ian Wilson <scobloke2@infotop.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <ch2jku$e9e$1@hercules.btinternet.com>
David Schwartz wrote:
> 'unixism' has nothing to do with *using* UNIX.
...
> only those people who use UNIXes are affected by 'unixism'
Sorry, I don't see how an activity can be affected by something that has
nothing to do with that activity.
Are you suggesting that Unix users don't have to deal with unixism? If
that were so, why would Xah Lee have such a bee in his bonnet about it? [2]
Xah Lee says "unix should mean unixism, the way things are done in unix
platform" [1]
Xah Lee also says "the unix shells ... is one giant unpurgeable shit
pile arose from ad hoc hacks of unixism." [2]
It seems legit to wonder why he chooses to place his web-pages amongst
shit piles.
[1]
The world unix should mean unixism, that is, the way things are done in
unix platform, their culture, their hacking attitude, their social
attitude, their preferences, their people, their tools, their languages,
their ps grep config make shebang tartall gunzip README manifesto et cetera.
http://www.xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/freebooks.html
[2]
By the way, the unix shells and environment variable and ways, is quite
a fucked up one. It is amazing to see its stupidities alluded as an
advance for some language design argument. The whole morbidity of the
prospect to place an executable script as any program name in any path
with the fucked up ways to search for programs to execute and the fucked
up way to determine whether it is a program by the fucked up permission
bits system is one giant unpurgeable shit pile arose from ad hoc hacks
of unixism.
http://www.xahlee.org/Writ_dir/comp_lang_lisp/124.txt
All hail!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:58:32 -0500
From: arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <r1m9j0l3co4qq6h9tu94uh3hggqard0ks1@4ax.com>
On 31 Aug 2004 16:06:31 GMT, Craig A. Finseth <news@finseth.com>
wrote:
<snip>
>When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
>that "/" was already taken, so they used "\". But there was a hidden
>way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.
Which got removed quite some back.
>And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
>and "\" interchangably.
--
Arargh407 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:59:47 -0500
From: arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <74m9j05av6cjpd4fs1mlatgmvlq98l9rmc@4ax.com>
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:43:34 GMT, red floyd <no.spam@here.dude> wrote:
>CBFalconer wrote:
>
>> Dump Notepad and get Textpad. www.textpad.com. First class.
>>
>
>Let the editor flame wars begin!
>
>Get gvim! www.vim.org
WordPerfect PE or later ED. No longer sold, AFAIK.
--
Arargh407 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:13:36 -0400
From: Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <8KadnRWhvb1sRqncRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
red floyd wrote:
> Let the editor flame wars begin!
Anyone else remember Blackbeard?
sherm--
--
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org
------------------------------
Date: 31 Aug 2004 21:05:48 GMT
From: James Keasley <me@privacy.net>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <slrncj9q1c.ev1.me@athena.homeric.co.uk>
On 2004-08-31, Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote:
> red floyd wrote:
>
>> Let the editor flame wars begin!
>
> Anyone else remember Blackbeard?
Arr Sherm, me-lad, that I do, great man, never got his
round in though ;)
--
James jamesk[at]homeric[dot]co[dot]uk
Black holes suck!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:36:56 GMT
From: "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <Yb6Zc.32434$Es2.12983421@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Craig A. Finseth wrote:
> Wrong. The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
> whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
> after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?). Consider the "PIP" command.
> When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
> that "/" was already taken, so they used "\". But there was a hidden
> way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.
Except, of course, that it was useless, because 99% of programs did
their own option parsing, and still do. The hidden option only lasted
one .1 subrelease, as I recall.
> And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
> and "\" interchangably.
...which is /one/ thing that the FLOSS community can honestly thank them
for.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract,
Man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams. "Bors to Elayne: On the King's Coins"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:48:07 GMT
From: "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <rm6Zc.32509$Es2.13014983@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Rich Teer wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, John W. Kennedy wrote:
>>Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator. Ever since 2.0, MS has
>>been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
> .... And has failed miserably to do so.
Not entirely. Porting GNU software and the like to MS-DOS and Windows
could be a hell of a lot more difficult than it is. Try porting almost
anything to, for example, the MVS (classic) environment (which is why
MVS now also includes a Unix-wise alternate environment).
--
John W. Kennedy
"You can, if you wish, class all science-fiction together; but it is
about as perceptive as classing the works of Ballantyne, Conrad and W.
W. Jacobs together as the 'sea-story' and then criticizing _that_."
-- C. S. Lewis. "An Experiment in Criticism"
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 6939
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