[23808] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 6011 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Jan 29 19:51:18 2004
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:50:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 29 Jan 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 6011
Today's topics:
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to (Lothar Scholz)
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to (Pierre Asselin)
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to (G Klinedinst)
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to (Lothar Scholz)
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <dag.nope@orion.no.way>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <ceo@nospan.on.net>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to (Walter Roberson)
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <ewilhelm@somethinglike.sbcglobalDOTnet>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <matthew.garrish@sympatico.ca>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <ceo@nospan.on.net>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <dragnet@internalysis.com>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to (Walter Roberson)
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to (G Klinedinst)
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to (G Klinedinst)
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <jeffrey@jhu.edu>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:05:45 -0500
From: "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <400c6738_3@news3.prserv.net>
Abigail wrote:
> My point is that the fact that computer can't understand human
> languages doesn't prove human languages are more complex.
Nevertheless, human languages are _far_ more complicated. A _very_
simplified YACC grammar for English has about 10,000 rules. (Exception:
the artificial language Loglan (http://www.loglan.org) has only about
150; interestingly, Loglan is _very_ difficult to learn.)
--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
------------------------------
Date: 19 Jan 2004 16:25:28 -0800
From: llothar@web.de (Lothar Scholz)
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <6ee58e07.0401191625.6649869d@posting.google.com>
> This is crazy. I'm not sure why you would go to college and learn to
> do something as difficult as programming to make the same money as a
> bus driver. You can get $50K or more starting salary for Perl or PHP
> if you move to the right metro area. Usually about 10K more per year
> with Java. Just watch out for the cost of living and competition for
> jobs in some areas.
Life is unfair. I know some programmers who work for 6000 USD a year
fulltime.
Oh yes, it's Chiang Mai (the second largest town in Thailand and the
so called next Bangalore).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:13:02 -0500
From: pa@invalid.invalid (Pierre Asselin)
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <urleub.hlt.ln@brick.verano.sba.ca.us>
CountScubula <me@scantek.hotmail.com> wrote:
> I would not consider learning any language to be done in a month, or 3-6.
It depends on the language. At one end of the spectrum, I was productive
in tcl after staring at the Tcl(n) man page intently for 20 minutes.
After that it took maybe two months for my style to stabilize. At the
other end of the spectrum you have kitchen-sink languages like C++.
> Any programmer that comes at me with that attitude, Well, I will call him,
> dont call me.
Your loss. It's the *programming* that takes decades to learn.
By comparison the programming languages are completely superficial.
Even C++.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 02:29:28 GMT
From: "Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <co0Pb.838$h77.492@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>
Pierre Asselin wrote:
> Your loss. It's the *programming* that takes decades to learn.
> By comparison the programming languages are completely superficial.
> Even C++.
Thank you. Exactly my point.
jue
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jan 2004 07:51:43 -0800
From: g_klinedinst@hotmail.com (G Klinedinst)
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <168f035a.0401210751.1f03f3f4@posting.google.com>
"Jerome H. Gitomer" <jgitomer@erols.com> wrote in message news:<400de611$0
> Welcome to the real world. Compensation is based on supply and
> demand (or membership in the right union) -- not the difficulty
> in acquiring skills. Bear in mind that there are many fields in
> which the holder of a PhD with several years of experience earns
> less than a new grad with a computer science degree.
>
> Life isn't fair.
Yes, I know that there are other things that affect salary levels.
Specifically competition, unions, etc.(I mentioned competition for
jobs in a previous post). I am saying that _IN GENERAL_ people should
get paid significantly more if they get a BS or higher in a difficult
field like CS. I was saying this in response to a person who claimed
to pay PHP/Perl programmers $30K/yr, which IMHO is crazy. I also
understand that a PhD in a non-technical field can sometimes not be
worth the paper it's printed on financially speaking, however I
clearly stated I was talking about CS and other highly technical
fields.
-Greg
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jan 2004 08:55:07 -0800
From: llothar@web.de (Lothar Scholz)
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <6ee58e07.0401210855.873410d@posting.google.com>
"Matt Garrish" <matthew.garrish@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<2WiPb.5414$rW5.317342@news20.bellglobal.com>...
>
> Do you know what a xenophobe is? You're exactly what gives Americans a bad
> name...
>
ROTFL. You only prove that you don't know anything why Americans have
a bad name. It's better to start with Bush and American arrogance
instead with Sara.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:23:36 GMT
From: "Dag Sunde" <dag.nope@orion.no.way>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <sAyPb.31043$BD3.6831960@juliett.dax.net>
"Lothar Scholz" <llothar@web.de> wrote in message
news:6ee58e07.0401210855.873410d@posting.google.com...
> "Matt Garrish" <matthew.garrish@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<2WiPb.5414$rW5.317342@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> >
> > Do you know what a xenophobe is? You're exactly what gives Americans a
bad
> > name...
> >
>
> ROTFL. You only prove that you don't know anything why Americans have
> a bad name. It's better to start with Bush and American arrogance
> instead with Sara.
:-D Agree!
But to the OP's question, I'm not a pure PHP programmer.
I Use PHP, ASP, VB, Java where I find it most useful, but
during a normal workweek I usually have been in contact
with all og them.
I Norway this gives me a salary of NOK 500000.- , or
approx. US$ 75000.-
I Don't know how it is in the rest of Europe
--
Dag.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:26:15 GMT
From: Chris <ceo@nospan.on.net>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <XCyPb.10970$IA.8753@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>
Jürgen Exner wrote:
> Pierre Asselin wrote:
>
>>Your loss. It's the *programming* that takes decades to learn.
>>By comparison the programming languages are completely superficial.
>>Even C++.
>
>
> Thank you. Exactly my point.
>
Firstly, I confess to not have read every single message in this thread,
but the few I have read seem to not take some variables into account.
On the whole, I mostly have to agree with a line Jurgen (pardon the lack
of proper punc. on the "u") and Pierre have taken: specific languages
are superficial to the overall talent driving them. I can practically
guarantee you that there are MANY that in 3-6 months time could be
running circles around others who have used programming language <x> for
10+ years. It's not completely a function of time spent because...
One has to take into account the overall gifting and potentiality of the
person involved in the task and not just the mechanics of the tool(s)
used. Afterall, it's the person who wields the tool that companies want
(or one would think) and not the tool itself. There is *some* merit in
wanting to insure deftness in potential candidates by asking for a range
of "years experience" (esp. in the case of short term assignmnets as
Jurgen pointed out already), but I'm afraid I hold the opinion that many
companies loose out BIG TIME by towing a hard line here.
One who is gifted will always overtake one who excels by persperation
alone. And usually rather quickly. Extra practice always helps a
gifted person, but extra practice will not make a non-gifted person,
gifted. There are many examples of this in sports, music, etc. And
it's quite irksome to see the same logic missing from the hiring
considerations of many companies whose approach is largely two
dimensional when it comes to resourcing technical talent. Sorry, but I
feel very strongly this way. (I am developer/admin with 17 years
experience with companies of every shape and size.)
I realize it's a time factor for hiring managers, but one always gets
back what is put in... It takes time to separate the "wheat from the
chaff" and frankly most hiring managers take the least costly road and
use two dimensional metrics for hiring considerations. You get what you
pay for...
Another factor I don't see mantioned is quality of product required by
the companies hiring. I liken technical talent a lot to musical
ability. Once one instrument is mastered, it's fairly easy to move to
another instrument that is closely related and play very, very well.
How well one NEEDS to play (or develop) certainly is always a question,
but my own experience shows that very, very few companies require a "Doc
Severenson" level of talent in any one given language. Some do. But
most can do well with above average or even exceptional talent and do
not require someone of world-wide reknown. If you want to invent .NET,
then that requires an Anders Hejlsberg. If you want someone to USE
.NET, it does NOT require Anders nor does it necessarily require someone
that's used it since it's inception (ESPECIALLY since it's still only
what? 2-3 years old?)
But companies insist on viewing things this way (and I saw some people
post who hold those sentiments), and I agree with Pierre: it's
unequivically YOUR LOSS.
Most of this stuff from IBM, Microsoft, Sun, CA, Borland, Oracle, etc.
UNDER THE COVERS is all the same. It's just got different names and
some differing features here and there. For someone *gifted* this is
usually not a problem. Different names, same basic technology. For
someone that's just a one-tune player, sure it can be quite confusing
because all that he/she knows is their one thing.
Jurgen's point, which I maintain is: hire the musician. Forget the
one-tune players (they usually end up finding management positions
because they can't cut the mustard technically, and then we musicians
have to battle their closed mentalities on hiring us. How incredibly
ironic, wouldn't you say?)
Chris
-----
Chris Olive
chris (-at-) technologEase (-dot-) com
http://www.technologEase.com
(pronounced "technologies")
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:51:49 +0100
From: Jochen Buennagel <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <bume7m$m25$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Some more points that may need mentioning:
- It is possible for a gifted programmer to be over 10 times more
productive than an ungifted one.
- It is possible for an ungifted programmer to actually decrease the
overall productivity of a development team. (As the old saying goes:
"Hiring him is like losing two good men.")
Once the above sinks in, hopefully some companies will realize:
- It is logical that a good programmer can (and should) earn more than
the manager he's working under.
This last point will be the hardest for managers to accept. After all
they live in a world where the hierarchy must always reflect the
compensation.
(If you agree to the above points, you should read "Software
Crafsmanship" by Pete McBreen. If you don't agree and you manage
programmers, you should read it *tomorrow*.)
Jochen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:29:52 GMT
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <87fze90z6y.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "GK" == G Klinedinst <g_klinedinst@hotmail.com> writes:
GK> Yes, I know that there are other things that affect salary
GK> levels. Specifically competition, unions, etc.(I mentioned
GK> competition for jobs in a previous post). I am saying that _IN
GK> GENERAL_ people should get paid significantly more if they get
GK> a BS or higher in a difficult field like CS. I was saying this
GK> in response to a person who claimed to pay PHP/Perl
GK> programmers $30K/yr, which IMHO is crazy.
You're making the incorrect assumption that the people working as
programmers have BS or BA degrees in computer science, or indeed any
degrees at all. Of the people I've worked with in a technical
capacity who had computer science degrees, about 2/3 were absolutely
useless, but the other 1/3 made up for it; of the people I've worked
with in a technical capacity who didn't have computer science degrees,
about 2/3 were quite good, but the other 1/3 more than made up for it.
Charlton
--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jan 2004 21:40:24 GMT
From: roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca (Walter Roberson)
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <bumrk8$phk$1@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>
In article <bume7m$m25$02$1@news.t-online.com>,
Jochen Buennagel <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com> wrote:
:Some more points that may need mentioning:
:- It is logical that a good programmer can (and should) earn more than
:the manager he's working under.
That would depend what the manager is doing for the organization.
A manager's choices about what to proceed on (and how), and what to spend
money on, can potentially be of even more value to an organization than
even a very good programmer.
Being a manager and being incompetant are not synonyms (though
there might be correlations ;-) )
--
Feep if you love VT-52's.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:55:30 GMT
From: Eric Wilhelm <ewilhelm@somethinglike.sbcglobalDOTnet>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <pan.2004.01.21.15.58.12.989407.5383@somethinglike.sbcglobalDOTnet>
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:51:49 -0600, Jochen Buennagel wrote:
> Some more points that may need mentioning:
>
> - It is possible for a gifted programmer to be over 10 times more
> productive than an ungifted one.
>
> - It is possible for an ungifted programmer to actually decrease the
> overall productivity of a development team. (As the old saying goes:
> "Hiring him is like losing two good men.")
>
> Once the above sinks in, hopefully some companies will realize:
>
> - It is logical that a good programmer can (and should) earn more than
> the manager he's working under.
>
> This last point will be the hardest for managers to accept. After all
> they live in a world where the hierarchy must always reflect the
> compensation.
>
> (If you agree to the above points, you should read "Software
> Crafsmanship" by Pete McBreen. If you don't agree and you manage
> programmers, you should read it *tomorrow*.)
>
>
I wholeheartedly back your call for managers to get a clue, but why does
agreeing with three of the points made in Brooks's "The Mythical
Man-Month" (~1975) mean that we should read a book written a few years ago
by some other guy?
I'm sure that there are good points in McBreen's work, but the ones which
you list above are laid-out in Brooks long ago (almost all of which is
still relevant despite the complete inversion of people/machine cost.)
--Eric
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:01:33 -0500
From: "Matt Garrish" <matthew.garrish@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <upEPb.15386$U77.1104940@news20.bellglobal.com>
"Lothar Scholz" <llothar@web.de> wrote in message
news:6ee58e07.0401210855.873410d@posting.google.com...
> "Matt Garrish" <matthew.garrish@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<2WiPb.5414$rW5.317342@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> >
> > Do you know what a xenophobe is? You're exactly what gives Americans a
bad
> > name...
> >
>
> ROTFL. You only prove that you don't know anything why Americans have
> a bad name. It's better to start with Bush and American arrogance
> instead with Sara.
I have to assume from your response that your English is not that strong,
hence your misunderstanding. I would suggest you look up the word emblematic
in a dictionary.
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 01:35:22 GMT
From: Chris <ceo@nospan.on.net>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <uNFPb.11061$832.4546@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>
Walter Roberson wrote:
> In article <bume7m$m25$02$1@news.t-online.com>,
> Jochen Buennagel <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com> wrote:
> :Some more points that may need mentioning:
> :- It is logical that a good programmer can (and should) earn more than
> :the manager he's working under.
>
> That would depend what the manager is doing for the organization.
>
> A manager's choices about what to proceed on (and how), and what to spend
> money on, can potentially be of even more value to an organization than
> even a very good programmer.
>
> Being a manager and being incompetant are not synonyms (though
> there might be correlations ;-) )
Certainly a point worthy of consideration... I certainly didn't mean to
generalize managers in the short disoourse at the head of this
sub-thread. In fact, I see the very same points I made in the area of
programming equally applicable to management. 7-10 years of "management
experience" doesn't make one a great manager. It goes right back to raw
talent and the person again. I've found that a lot of the great
managers were the ones that knew good and well they weren't worth an
auto-increment in development; they get out of the way and let their
developers do their jobs. They are just as good at SEEING a coming
political or resource management problem as well as any great developer
guards against deadlocks...
So, the point, I believe, remains. The really good ones SEE past the
details (TQM, XP groups, TDM, RAD, etc) and are able to adapt and apply
using various tools be they management or development persons. Good
managers aren't good because they took a course on TQM and know TQM
buzzwords; they are good beecause they use the best tool necessary for
the job and aren't lost every time their company "reorgs" according to
the latest management fad or the next new thing the CEO or COO wants to
"try." Nor should they (nor ARE they) disqualified from a management
position at another company (usually not) because they haven't applied
TQM or XP (eg. extreme programming) at the last company they managed.
I feel this is the EXACT point being made. How much of a difference is
there between C, Perl, PHP, JavaScript, C++, C# and Java in and of
themselves? REALLY? Not much. And I can use an API reference as well
as anyone. And face it, PHP, .NET (C#), C++, and Java are HUGE. Very
few persons, even those using either of these "for years" can POSSIBLY
know all the classes, calls and interface possibilities and combinations
in ANY ONE of them. Again *some* merit has to be given to someone with
prolonged exposure, but how many good, comptent people are turned away
simply because their exposure is a bit less, but their potentiality,
adaptability, raw talent and true development ability (it's abstract
talent EXPRESSED in different so called "languages") would easily (in
very short order) outweigh someone that's just "done their time" but
doesn't really have a real clue about underlying technology?
I guess I am venting a little bit because I see this especially in the
.NET and J2EE arenas where I believe someone that is thoroughly intimate
with the "ins" and "outs" of raw web technology, IP, middleware, remote
proxies, and such infrastructure isn't fooled one bit by the smoke and
mirrors of .NET. And yet I see these ads where you're not going to get
a sniff if you've never fired up Visual Studio .NET and worked in that
IDE for at least 2 years. Please!! :-(
Chris
-----
Chris Olive
chris (-at-) technologEase (-dot-) com
http://www.technologEase.com
(pronounced "technologies")
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 04:15:34 GMT
From: Marc Bissonnette <dragnet@internalysis.com>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <Xns9477ECA23921Cdragnetinternalysisc@207.35.177.134>
Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net> wrote in
news:87fze90z6y.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net:
>>>>>> "GK" == G Klinedinst <g_klinedinst@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> GK> Yes, I know that there are other things that affect salary
> GK> levels. Specifically competition, unions, etc.(I mentioned
> GK> competition for jobs in a previous post). I am saying that _IN
> GK> GENERAL_ people should get paid significantly more if they get
> GK> a BS or higher in a difficult field like CS. I was saying this
> GK> in response to a person who claimed to pay PHP/Perl
> GK> programmers $30K/yr, which IMHO is crazy.
>
> You're making the incorrect assumption that the people working as
> programmers have BS or BA degrees in computer science, or indeed any
> degrees at all. Of the people I've worked with in a technical
> capacity who had computer science degrees, about 2/3 were absolutely
> useless, but the other 1/3 made up for it; of the people I've worked
> with in a technical capacity who didn't have computer science degrees,
> about 2/3 were quite good, but the other 1/3 more than made up for it.
Indeed, I mirror Charleton's opinion/experience. Before starting my own
business, I was a project / middle manager for a couple of ISPs. I'd seen
a fair share of programmers with computer science degrees, as well as
those who were completely self-taught with *totally* unrelated college
experience (my own college experience, for example, was in heavy
equipment diesel mechanics) - the self-taught folks almost always
outshone the college folk for the simple fact (IMO) that they *loved*
what they did (I'm sure this is true of some college/university folk as
well, of course)
The self-taught folk tend to go out and learn what works and what works
best, whereas the college folks tended to do what the books told them to
- which isn't always what's best... (reminded of the thread involving
George Reese, Perl and MySQL...)
Apologies for blanket statements and recognition to the exceptions, of
course ;)
--
Marc Bissonnette
CGI / Database / Web Management Tools: http://www.internalysis.com
Something To Sell? Looking To Buy? http://www.whitewaterclassifieds.ca
Looking for a new ISP? http://www.canadianisp.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:14:46 +0100
From: Jochen Buennagel <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <buo4a6$p1h$05$2@news.t-online.com>
Walter Roberson wrote:
> That would depend what the manager is doing for the organization.
>
> A manager's choices about what to proceed on (and how), and what to spend
> money on, can potentially be of even more value to an organization than
> even a very good programmer.
I was thinking about the direct superior of the programmer, as in "team
leader" or "project manager". Also it depends on the organization: If
the ultimate goal of the company is to produce good software, then
managers are often interchangable while good programmers aren't. Even
the best manager can't succeed in this endeavor with bad programmers,
while good programmers can't be held back even by an averagly-abled manager.
Jochen
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jan 2004 09:54:10 GMT
From: roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca (Walter Roberson)
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <buo6k2$em0$1@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>
In article <buo4a6$p1h$05$2@news.t-online.com>,
Jochen Buennagel <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com> wrote:
:I was thinking about the direct superior of the programmer, as in "team
:leader" or "project manager". Also it depends on the organization: If
:the ultimate goal of the company is to produce good software, then
:managers are often interchangable while good programmers aren't. Even
:the best manager can't succeed in this endeavor with bad programmers,
:while good programmers can't be held back even by an averagly-abled manager.
That's a faulty comparison. In the first branch, you have
"best" manager and "bad" programmers; in the second branch, you have
"good" programmers and "average" manager. "average" is a very different
category than "bad". Can the best manager succeed with average
programmers? Can the good programmers succeed with a bad manager?
My organization can always skim some bright young programmers off of
the local universities (and if not, we import 'em from other countries).
Finding pretty good programmers isn't hard. But good productive
programmers aren't necessarily all that good at analysis, only
at producing new code. A manager who -is- pretty good at analysis can
make a great difference in the overall results, even if the manager
isn't a programming whiz-kid. And finding technical people who are
pretty good at analysis is a lot harder than finding pretty good
programmers.
--
Warhol's Law: every Usenet user is entitled to his or her very own
fifteen minutes of flame -- The Squoire
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:17:32 +0100
From: Jochen Buennagel <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <buo7vs$c5h$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> I'm sure that there are good points in McBreen's work, but the ones which
> you list above are laid-out in Brooks long ago (almost all of which is
> still relevant despite the complete inversion of people/machine cost.)
If the above points where all there is about "Software Crafsmanship",
then it would indeed be totally superfluous (sp?), and I would certainly
not recommend reading it.
The book adresses the still common misconception that writing software
is an engineering discipline, embodied in the term (and process) of
"software engineering". McBreen's main point is that programming is a
craft in the old fashioned sense of the word. (E.g. it should not be
tought at a university but by a master to an apprentice.)
I recommend this book especially if you've read and agree with "Mythical
Man-Month" (or "Pragmatic Programmer", or DeMarco's works for that matter).
Jochen
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jan 2004 09:20:04 -0800
From: g_klinedinst@hotmail.com (G Klinedinst)
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <168f035a.0401220920.157616a0@posting.google.com>
Marc Bissonnette <dragnet@internalysis.com> wrote in message
> > You're making the incorrect assumption that the people working as
> > programmers have BS or BA degrees in computer science, or indeed any
> > degrees at all. Of the people I've worked with in a technical
> > capacity who had computer science degrees, about 2/3 were absolutely
> > useless, but the other 1/3 made up for it; of the people I've worked
> > with in a technical capacity who didn't have computer science degrees,
> > about 2/3 were quite good, but the other 1/3 more than made up for it.
>
> Indeed, I mirror Charleton's opinion/experience. Before starting my own
> business, I was a project / middle manager for a couple of ISPs. I'd seen
> a fair share of programmers with computer science degrees, as well as
> those who were completely self-taught with *totally* unrelated college
> experience (my own college experience, for example, was in heavy
> equipment diesel mechanics) - the self-taught folks almost always
> outshone the college folk for the simple fact (IMO) that they *loved*
> what they did (I'm sure this is true of some college/university folk as
> well, of course)
>
I have had vastly different experience personally. In my experience
self-taught people tend to be more one-dimensional whether their
specialty is networking, programming, etc. Also they tend to not
follow basic principles of programming(modularizing code, etc), which
trained programmers do because it was hammered into them for years at
school. On the other hand I work/live in a computer tech center of the
country where a lot of great programmers flock, so it may not be
representative of the country as a whole. Where I went to school there
were certainly CS majors who were just there to get a piece of
paper(one senior in CS couldn't install his own CD-ROM drive).
> The self-taught folk tend to go out and learn what works and what works
> best, whereas the college folks tended to do what the books told them to
> - which isn't always what's best... (reminded of the thread involving
> George Reese, Perl and MySQL...)
I am going to try to say this without generalizing so stick with me:
This statement is what worries me. People out there programming and
doing what "they" think is best. Remember that for the most part the
books are written by people who have dedicated their lives to the
understanding of information processing. Having someone doing what
"they" think works rather than what is taught in the books doesn't
strike me as necessarily a good thing, unless they can cite a specific
reason where their solution is clearly better.
On the other hand I respect both your(Marc) and Charlton's
experiences. I haven't worked at enough companies to be able to make a
generalization about skill level across the board. If you feel more
comfortable with non-CS people then do what you feel is the right
thing for your business.
-Greg
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jan 2004 09:30:11 -0800
From: g_klinedinst@hotmail.com (G Klinedinst)
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <168f035a.0401220930.205e58ca@posting.google.com>
Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net> wrote in message
> You're making the incorrect assumption that the people working as
> programmers have BS or BA degrees in computer science, or indeed any
> degrees at all.
You are right. I was speaking for people with degrees. OTOH I am a
proponent of AS or BS of CS degree for programmers(I don't think it's
ever a BA but I could be wrong), so the bias was intentional. I was
trying to imply that aspiring programmers _should_ get formal training
in CS. I go into that a little in a reply post I made to Marc who
replyed to your post also. If you have a minute to read it take a
look, because I talk a little bit about why I am biased that way.
-Greg
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:14:59 GMT
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <877jzj24f8.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "JB" == Jochen Buennagel <zang.NOSPAM@buennagel.com> writes:
JB> - It is possible for an ungifted programmer to actually
JB> decrease the overall productivity of a development team. (As
JB> the old saying goes: "Hiring him is like losing two good
JB> men.")
I've worked with people like that. I've also burned out and *been*
someone like that.
JB> Once the above sinks in, hopefully some companies will
JB> realize:
JB> - It is logical that a good programmer can (and should) earn
JB> more than the manager he's working under.
JB> This last point will be the hardest for managers to
JB> accept. After all they live in a world where the hierarchy
JB> must always reflect the compensation.
Well, one of the other lessons that companies need to learn is that
you get what you reward. If you reward politicking and ass-kissing
more than technical competence -- and in places where the only way to
advance is to be promoted to management, politicking and ass-kissing
often get rewarded substantially more than technical competence --
then you get a company full of politicians and ass-kissers.
Charlton
--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:03:53 -0500
From: Jeffrey Silverman <jeffrey@jhu.edu>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <pan.2004.01.22.22.03.52.958577@jhu.edu>
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:57:07 +0000, Anno Siegel wrote:
> G Klinedinst <g_klinedinst@hotmail.com> wrote in comp.lang.perl.misc:
>> Jeffrey Silverman <jeffrey@jhu.edu> wrote in message
>> news:<pan.2004.01.20.22.22.47.181453@jhu.edu>...
>> > On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 08:41:38 -0800, G Klinedinst wrote:
>> >
>> > > Obviously if you have a project that needs done yesterday then get
>> > > someone
>> >
>> > Are you from Pittsburgh?
>>
>> Actually I am from that area, born and raised in PA. Do I know you or
>> can you just tell from my expressions?
>
> Must be "needs done". It's certainly distinctive.
>
> Anno
Exactly. My wife is from PGH. The only people I have met that omit
the verb "to be" from statements like "That needs to be washed" or "The
book needs to be returned" ar people from Pittsburgh.
"That needs washed"
"That needs returned"
to be! to be!
I'm used to it, at this point, at the very least.
later... :)
--
Jeffrey D. Silverman | jeffrey AT jhu DOT edu
Website | http://www.wse.jhu.edu/newtnotes/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:14:51 GMT
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <874qumz7w9.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "GK" == G Klinedinst <g_klinedinst@hotmail.com> writes:
GK> On the other hand I respect both your(Marc) and Charlton's
GK> experiences. I haven't worked at enough companies to be able
GK> to make a generalization about skill level across the
GK> board. If you feel more comfortable with non-CS people then do
GK> what you feel is the right thing for your business.
I think the final determination is made by considering the person
himself or herself. I think that to be a good programmer, you need a
mix of good theory, good practice, and good team habits; you can learn
all three in college, and you can learn all three by being
self-taught.
Since you raise (in the part you snipped) a point about breadth of
knowledge: one of the major deficiencies I've seen in college-educated
programmers is an inability to learn effectively outside the
classroom, without a professor providing a syllabus and regular tests.
Anyone who is self-taught obviously does not have this problem, since
they learned what they know outside that context. In the long run,
this is a major advantage, and leads to breadth of knowledge.
A related point, though, is perspective: one of the things that you
ought to come away from a college education in programming with is the
notion that different problems have different solutions. The notion
that PHP or Perl is the cure to all ills, for instance, is something
that self-taught programmers have, usually because PHP or Perl is the
only language they have any serious experience with. A college-
educated programmer (if the college is worth its salt, at least) ought
to have played with at least a dozen languages among various
paradigms, and ought to have a sense that there's more out there than
Perl and PHP and C and Java, even if he or she doesn't actually use
them on a regular basis.
And I think the core problem is that a good CS education doesn't
always come with a nice parchment certificate, and a nice parchment
certificate doesn't always indicate the presence of a good CS
education.
Charlton
--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:29:50 GMT
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <87vfn2xsx8.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "WR" == Walter Roberson <roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> writes:
WR> That's a faulty comparison. In the first branch, you have
WR> "best" manager and "bad" programmers; in the second branch,
WR> you have "good" programmers and "average" manager. "average"
WR> is a very different category than "bad". Can the best manager
WR> succeed with average programmers? Can the good programmers
WR> succeed with a bad manager?
The quality of the manager makes an incredible amount of difference,
in my experience; much more so than the quality of the individual
programmers. (Of course, this may be because I've been among the
individual programmers on a small team, and so the quality of the
programmers is somewhat consistent.)
So I'd answer your questions thus: the best manager can do a lot with
averageprogrammers; the good programmers with a bad manager might as
well seek employment elsewhere, because group success and job
satisfaction are likely to evade them completely.
Charlton
--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:29:50 GMT
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: How well a PHP or Perl programmer paid comparing to Java
Message-Id: <87zncext59.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "GK" == G Klinedinst <g_klinedinst@hotmail.com> writes:
GK> Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net> wrote in
GK> message
>> You're making the incorrect assumption that the people working
>> as programmers have BS or BA degrees in computer science, or
>> indeed any degrees at all.
GK> You are right. I was speaking for people with degrees. OTOH I
GK> am a proponent of AS or BS of CS degree for programmers(I
GK> don't think it's ever a BA but I could be wrong), so the bias
GK> was intentional.
I am the holder of a BA in computer science and music, so such things
exist. Of course, my college was a liberal arts college, and the
computer science major was in the process of spinning off from the
mathematics major when I studied there.
Charlton
--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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