[23092] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 5313 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Aug 5 14:11:22 2003
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:10:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 5 Aug 2003 Volume: 10 Number: 5313
Today's topics:
Brand New to Perl <local@localhost.localdomain>
Re: Brand New to Perl <spamblock@junkmail.com>
Re: Brand New to Perl <local@localhost.localdomain>
Re: Brand New to Perl <usenet@dwall.fastmail.fm>
Re: Brand New to Perl <tassilo.parseval@rwth-aachen.de>
Re: Brand New to Perl <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Re: Brand New to Perl (Tad McClellan)
Re: Brand New to Perl <matthew.garrish@sympatico.ca>
Re: Brand New to Perl <jkeen@concentric.net>
Re: Brand New to Perl <emschwar@pobox.com>
Re: Brand New to Perl <usenet@dwall.fastmail.fm>
Re: Brand New to Perl <local@localhost.localdomain>
Re: Brand New to Perl <uri@stemsystems.com>
Re: Brand New to Perl (Sam Holden)
Re: Brand New to Perl <bigj@kamelfreund.de>
Re: Brand New to Perl <tassilo.parseval@rwth-aachen.de>
Re: Brand New to Perl <uri@stemsystems.com>
Re: Brand New to Perl <mjcarman@mchsi.com>
Re: Brand New to Perl (Tad McClellan)
Re: Brand New to Perl <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Brand New to Perl <noreply@gunnar.cc>
Re: Brand New to Perl <kkeller-spammmm@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
Re: Brand New to Perl <bigj@kamelfreund.de>
Re: Brand New to Perl <bart.lateur@pandora.be>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:23:15 GMT
From: "noone" <local@localhost.localdomain>
Subject: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <pan.2003.08.04.19.22.34.102149@localhost.localdomain>
Hello all,
I am absolutely brand new to perl, but I understand that it is a very
important aspect of web development to create dynamic web pages.
I am kind of short on money, being a college student and all, and I have
looked at several bookstores for books about perl and:
1. I don't know what topics I should be looking for to learn the basics
of the perl language.
2. Most of the books are too much for me to shell out right now
(especially with my lack of understanding of what I should be looking for).
So far, I understand enough that I have downloaded free scripts and used
them on my locally hosted site, but obviously that puts me at the mercy of
the availibilty of free scripts and also of the scripts' authors code. I
really want to learn perl so that I can begin to code on my own, but I am
clueless as to where to begin.
I figured out by reading many of the posts that there are many perl experts
that post here. So, if anyone has written tutorials or any info on perl
that are available on the web, please include the links. Also, if anyone
knows of some really good and thorough web pages for beginners of perl,
please alert me to these. If there are some generally accepted "required"
books on perl, then I would like to hear about those as well and I will
look at getting those as soon as I can.
Thank you for all the suggestions,
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:00:58 -0700
From: "David Oswald" <spamblock@junkmail.com>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <viteukc6pu6g6a@corp.supernews.com>
"noone" <local@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.08.04.19.22.34.102149@localhost.localdomain...
> Hello all,
> I am absolutely brand new to perl, but I understand that it is a very
> important aspect of web development to create dynamic web pages.
>
> I am kind of short on money, being a college student and all, and I have
> looked at several bookstores for books about perl and:
> 1. I don't know what topics I should be looking for to learn the basics
> of the perl language.
> 2. Most of the books are too much for me to shell out right now
> (especially with my lack of understanding of what I should be looking
for).
Honestly, though the perldoc pages are extensive, comprehensive, up-to-date,
and generally great for reference and learning, I still feel that you're not
going to get very far on your quest to effectively learn Perl without the
following $150 investment in books from O'REILLY:
The Llama book, "Learning Perl".
The Camel book, "Programming Perl."
The Owls book, "Mastering Regular Expressions."
...and for CGI, the Mouse book, "CGI Programming on the WWW."
There are others which you'll want to add to your collection as time goes
by: Advanced Perl Programming, the Perl Cookbook, and maybe Perl in a
Nutshell, as well as others that delve into more specialized categories such
as database programming or network interfacing, but to begin with, you just
can't avoid getting the basics down with some good, well written books.
>
> So far, I understand enough that I have downloaded free scripts and used
> them on my locally hosted site, but obviously that puts me at the mercy of
> the availibilty of free scripts and also of the scripts' authors code. I
> really want to learn perl so that I can begin to code on my own, but I am
> clueless as to where to begin.
>
Yes, and that's a far cry from programming with Perl.
> I figured out by reading many of the posts that there are many perl
experts
> that post here. So, if anyone has written tutorials or any info on perl
> that are available on the web, please include the links. Also, if anyone
> knows of some really good and thorough web pages for beginners of perl,
> please alert me to these. If there are some generally accepted "required"
> books on perl, then I would like to hear about those as well and I will
> look at getting those as soon as I can.
You should be looking at www.cpan.org, search.cpan.org, www.perlfaq.com,
www.perl.com, and take it from there. Once you have access to a Perl
installation, all the perldoc pages are already at your fingertips. The
included perldocs, perlfaqs, and perltutorials are great, and will teach you
a lot. But as I said before, I think it takes going through a few good
books to get the true flavor and feel. In the Mastering Regular Expressions
book the author states the following insightful comment: "You can talk all
you want about how paints adhere to canvas, and the science of how colors
blend, but this won't make you a great painter. With painting as with any
art, you must touch on the human aspect to really make a statement" He was
speaking of regular expressions and why his book was helpful, but his
statement, I feel, speaks for Perl as well.
Also, comp.lang.perl, the Usenet group, is dead, gone, obliterated, disused,
depricated, and otherwise not suitable for human consumption. Stick to
comp.lang.perl.misc. Using the discontinued group indicates a failure to
read the FAQ's, and won't win friends or influence people.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:53:46 GMT
From: "noone" <local@localhost.localdomain>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <pan.2003.08.04.20.53.04.515990@localhost.localdomain>
thanx for the prompt and concise reply. I will keep everything you wrote
in mind and will look into getting a book or 2 soon. It won't be
long before I am out of college and have to market myself, and given the
current state of the job market, I need to pick up some true computer
knowledge (not just how to turn one on and off like many self-proclaimed
PC-competent people).
> Also, comp.lang.perl, the Usenet group, is dead, gone, obliterated, disused,
> depricated, and otherwise not suitable for human consumption. Stick to
> comp.lang.perl.misc. Using the discontinued group indicates a failure to
> read the FAQ's, and won't win friends or influence people.
I will not use the comp.lang.perl group anymore. Thanx for pointing that out.
I will read the FAQ's so that I don't end up doing something like that
again.
Thanx,
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:55:05 -0000
From: "David K. Wall" <usenet@dwall.fastmail.fm>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <Xns93CDAC1A04811dkwwashere@216.168.3.30>
noone <local@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
> I am absolutely brand new to perl, but I understand that it is a
> very important aspect of web development to create dynamic web
> pages.
It can be, and Perl is widely-used for web programming, but Perl is a
general-purpose language that is useful for much more than just web
programming.
> I am kind of short on money, being a college student and all, and
> I have looked at several bookstores for books about perl and:
> 1. I don't know what topics I should be looking for to learn the
> basics of the perl language.
> 2. Most of the books are too much for me to shell out right now
> (especially with my lack of understanding of what I should be
> looking for).
Try http://learn.perl.org/. That will lead you to other resources as
well as making book recommendations. The canonical book to start
learning Perl is, oddly enough, titled "Learning Perl". If you
already know a several other languages you might get by with the
Camel book ("Programming Perl"), but as another poster said, you'll
eventually benefit from having (and *reading*) a number of books.
> So far, I understand enough that I have downloaded free scripts
> and used them on my locally hosted site, but obviously that puts
> me at the mercy of the availibilty of free scripts and also of the
> scripts' authors code. I really want to learn perl so that I can
> begin to code on my own, but I am clueless as to where to begin.
Please avoid Matt Wright's free programs. For more information, see
http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/
--
David Wall
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 2003 21:53:50 GMT
From: "Tassilo v. Parseval" <tassilo.parseval@rwth-aachen.de>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <bgmkle$7dc$1@nets3.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
Also sprach David Oswald:
> "noone" <local@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.08.04.19.22.34.102149@localhost.localdomain...
>> Hello all,
>> I am absolutely brand new to perl, but I understand that it is a very
>> important aspect of web development to create dynamic web pages.
>>
>> I am kind of short on money, being a college student and all, and I have
>> looked at several bookstores for books about perl and:
>> 1. I don't know what topics I should be looking for to learn the basics
>> of the perl language.
>> 2. Most of the books are too much for me to shell out right now
>> (especially with my lack of understanding of what I should be looking
>> for).
>
> Honestly, though the perldoc pages are extensive, comprehensive, up-to-date,
> and generally great for reference and learning, I still feel that you're not
> going to get very far on your quest to effectively learn Perl without the
> following $150 investment in books from O'REILLY:
> The Llama book, "Learning Perl".
> The Camel book, "Programming Perl."
> The Owls book, "Mastering Regular Expressions."
> ...and for CGI, the Mouse book, "CGI Programming on the WWW."
Oh, please. What you say is that $150 is the minimum investment required
to learn Perl? I remember that I learnt Perl with the help of a very
short (can't have been more than six webpages) and wacky tutorial that
talked about Perl only in combination with CGI and HTML (including
broken CGI parameter parsing), plus the outdated Perl5 section of "Linux
in a Nutshell". That was all I had at the beginning. I was so lucky to
also have a friend who pointed me to the perldocs to which I switched
very soon. Add to this the willignness to produce something (for me it
was the inevitable MP3-to-MySQL-accessible-via-CGI project) that kept me
busy for a while till I dropped it when I lost interest. But by this
time I knew enough Perl to only work with the perldocs. My only two Perl
books are the Camel and Damians "Object Oriented Perl"; but I bought
those much later and not really because I needed them urgently.
It really doesn't take much to learn Perl and money is the most
insignificant factor in it.
> There are others which you'll want to add to your collection as time goes
> by: Advanced Perl Programming, the Perl Cookbook, and maybe Perl in a
> Nutshell, as well as others that delve into more specialized categories such
> as database programming or network interfacing, but to begin with, you just
> can't avoid getting the basics down with some good, well written books.
Gee. Those are all fine books but you don't need any of those. Same is
actually true for Friedl's regex book. The perldocs are pretty extensive
and clear on them. They alone cover 200% of what you will usually need.
>> I figured out by reading many of the posts that there are many perl
>> experts that post here. So, if anyone has written tutorials or any
>> info on perl that are available on the web, please include the links.
>> Also, if anyone knows of some really good and thorough web pages for
>> beginners of perl, please alert me to these. If there are some
>> generally accepted "required" books on perl, then I would like to
>> hear about those as well and I will look at getting those as soon as
>> I can.
>
> You should be looking at www.cpan.org, search.cpan.org, www.perlfaq.com,
> www.perl.com, and take it from there. Once you have access to a Perl
> installation, all the perldoc pages are already at your fingertips. The
> included perldocs, perlfaqs, and perltutorials are great, and will teach you
> a lot. But as I said before, I think it takes going through a few good
> books to get the true flavor and feel. In the Mastering Regular Expressions
> book the author states the following insightful comment: "You can talk all
> you want about how paints adhere to canvas, and the science of how colors
> blend, but this won't make you a great painter. With painting as with any
> art, you must touch on the human aspect to really make a statement" He was
> speaking of regular expressions and why his book was helpful, but his
> statement, I feel, speaks for Perl as well.
Don't turn learning Perl into a science. It is not. It can be done in
relatively short time even with pretty mediocre learning material. All
that is needed is a little bit of engagement and it'll even be fun.
For those who prefer having a book on their shelf, "Learning Perl" is
probably appropriate. It teaches enough to continue with the perldocs
afterwards.
Tassilo
--
$_=q#",}])!JAPH!qq(tsuJ[{@"tnirp}3..0}_$;//::niam/s~=)]3[))_$-3(rellac(=_$({
pam{rekcahbus})(rekcah{lrePbus})(lreP{rehtonabus})!JAPH!qq(rehtona{tsuJbus#;
$_=reverse,s+(?<=sub).+q#q!'"qq.\t$&."'!#+sexisexiixesixeseg;y~\n~~dddd;eval
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:55:36 GMT
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <874r0xqeh3.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>
"David Oswald" <spamblock@junkmail.com> writes:
> Honestly, though the perldoc pages are extensive, comprehensive, up-to-date,
> and generally great for reference and learning, I still feel that you're not
> going to get very far on your quest to effectively learn Perl without the
> following $150 investment in books from O'REILLY:
> The Llama book, "Learning Perl".
> The Camel book, "Programming Perl."
> The Owls book, "Mastering Regular Expressions."
> ...and for CGI, the Mouse book, "CGI Programming on the WWW."
Seconded! Though I'd point out that, for someone learning, you can
get pretty far with the Llama book, and you don't need the Camel book
until you've worked your way through the Llama -- one way to spread
the financial pain out. You certainly don't need to buy all the books
at once.
> There are others which you'll want to add to your collection as time goes
> by: Advanced Perl Programming, the Perl Cookbook, and maybe Perl in a
> Nutshell, as well as others that delve into more specialized categories such
> as database programming or network interfacing, but to begin with, you just
> can't avoid getting the basics down with some good, well written books.
I'd add _Programming the Perl DBI_ to this as well, since a lot of
useful dynamic web stuff interfaces with databases. I'd remove
_Advanced Perl Programming_, because while the issues it raises are
all relevant, it's a good five years out of date in the solutions it
proposes -- a useful resource for an experienced programmer, but full
of traps for the unwary novice.
Charlton
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:06:35 -0500
From: tadmc@augustmail.com (Tad McClellan)
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <slrnbitm7b.dfo.tadmc@magna.augustmail.com>
[ non-existant Newsgroups: removed ]
noone <local@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
> I am absolutely brand new to perl,
How about to programming in general?
Have you done programming before in any other language?
> I am kind of short on money, being a college student and all, and I have
> looked at several bookstores for books about perl and:
> 1. I don't know what topics I should be looking for to learn the basics
> of the perl language.
The 2 most often recommended tutorial books are:
If you are already a programmer:
"Learning Perl" O'Reilly
If you are new to programming as well as to Perl:
"Elements of Programming with Perl" Manning
> 2. Most of the books are too much for me to shell out right now
> (especially with my lack of understanding of what I should be looking for).
>
> So far, I understand enough that I have downloaded free scripts and used
> them on my locally hosted site, but obviously that puts me at the mercy of
> the availibilty of free scripts and also of the scripts' authors code. I
> really want to learn perl so that I can begin to code on my own, but I am
> clueless as to where to begin.
>
> I figured out by reading many of the posts that there are many perl experts
> that post here.
One excellent way to learn Perl is to "follow around" those very folks.
Read 10 or 20 threads a day, and watch their answers as they go by.
--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
tadmc@augustmail.com Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:02:13 -0400
From: "Matt Garrish" <matthew.garrish@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <SBBXa.1221$_a4.284044@news20.bellglobal.com>
"Tassilo v. Parseval" <tassilo.parseval@rwth-aachen.de> wrote in message
news:bgmkle$7dc$1@nets3.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE...
> My only two Perl
> books are the Camel and Damians "Object Oriented Perl"; but I bought
> those much later and not really because I needed them urgently.
>
Which are all you'll ever need, at any time (the cookbook can be done
without, and I can't think of any use for the nuthsell book unless you're
trying to program during a blackout). I used to be a bigger fan of the
O'Reilly books (there still are some excellent ones, usually with Wall or
Schwartz on the cover), but it seems like they'll dump out a Perl book on
anything these days -- no matter the quality -- to take advantage of
language's popularity. Almost makes me ashamed I work in publishing... : )
Matt
------------------------------
Date: 05 Aug 2003 00:32:40 GMT
From: "James E Keenan" <jkeen@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <bgmtv8$36t@dispatch.concentric.net>
"Tad McClellan" <tadmc@augustmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnbitm7b.dfo.tadmc@magna.augustmail.com...
>
noone <local@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
> > I am absolutely brand new to perl,
>
>
> How about to programming in general?
>
> Have you done programming before in any other language?
>
> The 2 most often recommended tutorial books are:
>
> If you are already a programmer:
>
> "Learning Perl" O'Reilly
>
> If you are new to programming as well as to Perl:
>
> "Elements of Programming with Perl" Manning
>
>
I second Tad's suggestions; they are the 2 books I suggest in teaching a
"Perl Programming Fundamentals" course. Work through the end-of-chapter
examples in these books.
While I think you should continue to read this newsgroup, I also recommend
following a couple of the beginners-oriented mailing lists, such as the one
at perl.org (http://learn.perl.org/) or the Yahoo perl-beginners group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/perl-beginner/). They have good people
following those lists who can be more helpful to beginners than this list
sometimes is.
Jim Keenan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:45:39 -0600
From: Eric Schwartz <emschwar@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <etod6flnd8s.fsf@wormtongue.emschwar>
Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net> writes:
> Seconded! Though I'd point out that, for someone learning, you can
> get pretty far with the Llama book, and you don't need the Camel book
> until you've worked your way through the Llama -- one way to spread
> the financial pain out. You certainly don't need to buy all the books
> at once.
I'd counter that you don't need the Camel at all once you've gotten
through the Llama. The Camel, handy as it was for learning the
language (I'm a masochist, and went with it, albeit the perl4 version,
when I first learned the language), isn't really very much more than
some commentary on top of the perldocs; I found that nearly every time
I was confused between the Camel and Perl, it was because the book was
out-of-date.
The Cookbook, OTOH, I enjoy tremendously, because it answers the "how
do I..." questions much more directly. Unfortunately, it (or at least
my edition) isn't always warnings and strict-safe, so it still helps
to know Perl before you pick it up.
> I'd add _Programming the Perl DBI_ to this as well, since a lot of
> useful dynamic web stuff interfaces with databases.
I guess; I can't imagine what's in it that wouldn't be in the DBI
perldocs, but whatever floats your boat, hey.
-=Eric
--
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
-- Blair Houghton.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:52:26 -0000
From: "David K. Wall" <usenet@dwall.fastmail.fm>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <Xns93CDE8AFD6942dkwwashere@216.168.3.30>
Eric Schwartz <emschwar@pobox.com> wrote:
> Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@mithril.chromatico.net> writes:
>> I'd add _Programming the Perl DBI_ to this as well, since a lot of
>> useful dynamic web stuff interfaces with databases.
>
> I guess; I can't imagine what's in it that wouldn't be in the DBI
> perldocs, but whatever floats your boat, hey.
Mostly a more systematic, start-with-the-basics approach to the subject. The
docs are good, but tend to assume that you know what you want and just need
the method names and what they return. That certainly wasn't true of me the
first time I used the Perl DBI. Now that I'm used to it, the book gathers
dust on a shelf and I use the docs.
--
David Wall
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:58:15 GMT
From: "noone" <local@localhost.localdomain>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <pan.2003.08.05.02.57.31.252056@localhost.localdomain>
> Please avoid Matt Wright's free programs. For more information, see
> http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/
Forgive my ignorance, but why not? Is he just a moron or what? That
wasn't meant as derogatory as it sounded. Just wondering what is wrong
with his programs.
Thanx David.
And to all,
Thanx for the advice on the places to look for perl help and knowledge.
And I really didn't mean to accentuate the monetary aspect of learning
Perl nearly as much as the fact that I am of the belief that knowledge
should be free and knowledge is power. The main underlying reason for my
urge to learn perl stems from my total ignorance of the existence of
perl/cgi up until about a month ago. Then I became intrigued with what
exactly perl did and how I could then make it work for me.
So, sorry if I offended anyone because I seem to only want to learn to
perl for strictly monetary benefits. I just feel that if I do not start
learning now, I will get lost in the abyss of new and upcoming languages
that will not surface for years into the future. Perl is by no means my
only goal, it is just one of the many things that I have set out to
understand about computers in general.
Matt D.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:06:04 GMT
From: Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <x77k5s6bxg.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "n" == noone <local@localhost.localdomain> writes:
>> Please avoid Matt Wright's free programs. For more information,
>> see http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/
n> Forgive my ignorance, but why not? Is he just a moron or what?
yes. and yes. and yes again.
n> That wasn't meant as derogatory as it sounded. Just wondering what
n> is wrong with his programs.
they are famous for being famous. and known by the perl community (not
the script kiddie community) as a pile of festering camel dung. they are
written poorly, full of security holes, full of bugs, cargo cult (copy
and paste) code, etc. many of the kiddie scripts on the net stole or the
authors learned (very bad) perl from using and modifying matt's crap. so
he is considered a major evil influence on perl and cgi in general.
check out the nms project at http://nms_cgi.sourceforge.net. these are
designed to be drop in replacements for most of matt's crap. they are
well written, secure and good to learn from. and even matt has endorsed
them.
did anyone mention learn.perl.org yet? and perl.org in general is the
main site for the perl community.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
------------------------------
Date: 5 Aug 2003 03:10:18 GMT
From: sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <slrnbiu80q.4bb.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:58:15 GMT, noone <local@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
>> Please avoid Matt Wright's free programs. For more information, see
>> http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but why not? Is he just a moron or what? That
> wasn't meant as derogatory as it sounded. Just wondering what is wrong
> with his programs.
Which part of the explanation at the link stated to contain more information
did you not find complete enough?
--
Sam Holden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:56:32 +0200
From: "Janek Schleicher" <bigj@kamelfreund.de>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <pan.2003.08.05.09.56.30.119265@kamelfreund.de>
David Oswald wrote at Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:00:58 -0700:
> Honestly, though the perldoc pages are extensive, comprehensive, up-to-date,
> and generally great for reference and learning, I still feel that you're not
> going to get very far on your quest to effectively learn Perl without the
> following $150 investment in books from O'REILLY:
> The Llama book, "Learning Perl".
> The Camel book, "Programming Perl."
> The Owls book, "Mastering Regular Expressions."
> ...and for CGI, the Mouse book, "CGI Programming on the WWW."
>
> There are others which you'll want to add to your collection as time goes
> by: Advanced Perl Programming, the Perl Cookbook, and maybe Perl in a
> Nutshell, as well as others that delve into more specialized categories such
> as database programming or network interfacing, but to begin with, you just
> can't avoid getting the basics down with some good, well written books.
> [...]
> You should be looking at www.cpan.org, search.cpan.org, www.perlfaq.com,
> www.perl.com, and take it from there. Once you have access to a Perl
> installation, all the perldoc pages are already at your fingertips. The
> included perldocs, perlfaqs, and perltutorials are great, and will teach you
> a lot. [...]
> Also, comp.lang.perl, the Usenet group, is dead, gone, obliterated, disused,
> depricated, and otherwise not suitable for human consumption. Stick to
> comp.lang.perl.misc. Using the discontinued group indicates a failure to
> read the FAQ's, and won't win friends or influence people.
Let's give the OP also the hint how he would have found the answer to his
question for itself on the shortest way:
Just type
perldoc -q book
Greetings,
Janek
------------------------------
Date: 5 Aug 2003 10:39:04 GMT
From: "Tassilo v. Parseval" <tassilo.parseval@rwth-aachen.de>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <bgo1g8$a5f$1@nets3.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
Also sprach Uri Guttman:
>>>>>> "n" == noone <local@localhost.localdomain> writes:
>
> >> Please avoid Matt Wright's free programs. For more information,
> >> see http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/
>
> n> Forgive my ignorance, but why not? Is he just a moron or what?
>
> yes. and yes. and yes again.
Please, Uri, think before you write (usually you do but you missed it
here:-). I'd like to point out that just releasing some questionable
code wont automatically make someone a moron. Matt's code just happens
to be very old code from Perl4 days with some serious holes in it. He'd
be a moron if he nowadays still promoted using his code. But he doesn't.
Instead he even directs people to the nms-project.
Tassilo
--
$_=q#",}])!JAPH!qq(tsuJ[{@"tnirp}3..0}_$;//::niam/s~=)]3[))_$-3(rellac(=_$({
pam{rekcahbus})(rekcah{lrePbus})(lreP{rehtonabus})!JAPH!qq(rehtona{tsuJbus#;
$_=reverse,s+(?<=sub).+q#q!'"qq.\t$&."'!#+sexisexiixesixeseg;y~\n~~dddd;eval
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:08:27 GMT
From: Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <x7u18w45h0.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "TvP" == Tassilo v Parseval <tassilo.parseval@rwth-aachen.de> writes:
TvP> Also sprach Uri Guttman:
>>>>>>> "n" == noone <local@localhost.localdomain> writes:
>> >> Please avoid Matt Wright's free programs. For more
>> information, >> see http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/
>>
n> Forgive my ignorance, but why not? Is he just a moron or what?
>> yes. and yes. and yes again.
TvP> Please, Uri, think before you write (usually you do but you
TvP> missed it here:-). I'd like to point out that just releasing some
TvP> questionable code wont automatically make someone a moron. Matt's
TvP> code just happens to be very old code from Perl4 days with some
TvP> serious holes in it. He'd be a moron if he nowadays still
TvP> promoted using his code. But he doesn't. Instead he even directs
TvP> people to the nms-project.
i disagree. his code was around for years and he never fixed it even
when told about the gapingg holes and bugs. he made major $$ from it
(through other things like book sales, ads, etc) from his scripts but
never spent any time improving the scripts or lifting a finger to touch
them. that is a moron in my book. the hs kid who wrote them was just a
kid. the adult who kept them out there and untouched is a moron. and
those who still use his scripts or promote his site are the real
morons. the other day we had a poster who thanked someone for refering
her to matt's crap. when admonished not to use the scripts she lashed
out. that is the result of a moron's work at several levels.
we have had so much extra work to do in the perl community due to matt's
crap archive. even now with nms, and his recommendation, there are
posters asking about formail and such all the time.
i don't need to continue this. his behaviour since he first wrote those
has been moronic.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:39:46 -0500
From: Michael Carman <mjcarman@mchsi.com>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <bgo8ij$bu1@onews.rockwellcollins.com>
On 8/4/2003 5:06 PM, Tad McClellan wrote:
>
> noone <local@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>>
>> I figured out by reading many of the posts that there are many perl
>> experts that post here.
Yes, the trick is figuring out who the "experts" are. Lurk for a while
and it should become self-evident.
> One excellent way to learn Perl is to "follow around" those very
> folks.
>
> Read 10 or 20 threads a day, and watch their answers as they go by.
Agreed. Most of my Perl knowledge comes directly from reading this
newsgroup. I do own a few books now, but that came much later. Buying a
few books will probably provide a gentler and more organized
introduction to the language, but if you have more time (patience) than
money, this newsgroup is a fabulous place to learn.
-mjc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:39:02 -0500
From: tadmc@augustmail.com (Tad McClellan)
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <slrnbiv9b6.eqf.tadmc@magna.augustmail.com>
noone <local@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
[ please provide a proper attribution when you quote someone ]
>> Please avoid Matt Wright's free programs. For more information, see
>> http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but why not?
Ignorance can be easily forgiven.
The "bad" Laziness is much harder to overlook.
Did you see http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/ as was recommended?
> Just wondering what is wrong
> with his programs.
Matt himself states what is wrong with his programs on the
very web page that you were pointed to.
--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
tadmc@augustmail.com Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:45:09 GMT
From: "Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <VpPXa.19326$td7.10359@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>
noone wrote:
> I am absolutely brand new to perl,
Ok. Nothing wrong with that.
> but I understand that it is a very
> important aspect of web development to create dynamic web pages.
True as well, but totally unrelated to Perl.
Perl and "dynamic web pages" are like airplanes and the color green. Yes,
there are airplanes that are painted green. But there are many airplanes in
other colors, too. And there are many other green things beside airplanes.
> I am kind of short on money, being a college student and all, and I
> have looked at several bookstores for books about perl and:
> 1. I don't know what topics I should be looking for to learn the
> basics of the perl language.
> 2. Most of the books are too much for me to shell out right now
> (especially with my lack of understanding of what I should be looking
> for).
Doesn't your public library have programming books? And if not I'm sure they
can order them through the library exchange system.
> So far, I understand enough that I have downloaded free scripts and
> used them on my locally hosted site, but obviously that puts me at
> the mercy of the availibilty of free scripts and also of the scripts'
> authors code. I really want to learn perl so that I can begin to
> code on my own, but I am clueless as to where to begin.
Ok, there are many things you are mixing up and which you should keep well
separated in your mind.
- Are you new to programming, too, (you didn't say) or just new to Perl?
If you are new to programming then start with "Learning Perl" (no need to
buy it, this book is so introductory that you won't use it any more after a
few months).
If you are familiar with programming, but new to Perl, then "Programming
Perl" is a good start. Buy it if you can afford it, it will serve you well
as handy desktop reference for years to come.
For further book recommandation on Perl just check the FAQ: "perldoc -q
book"
Now, that covers the Perl part, but there is more.
For web pages you obviously need a book about HTML. You should ask in a NG
that actually deals with HTML.
And for dynamic web pages you should ask in a NG that actually deals with
CGI. Can't help you there. Although I've been using Perl for over 10 years
I've never written a single CGI script.
jue
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:53:24 +0200
From: Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <bgogvc$r6chn$1@ID-184292.news.uni-berlin.de>
Jürgen Exner wrote:
> noone wrote:
>> I understand that [perl] is a very important aspect of web
>> development to create dynamic web pages.
>
> True as well, but totally unrelated to Perl.
> Perl and "dynamic web pages" are like airplanes and the color
> green. Yes, there are airplanes that are painted green. But there
> are many airplanes in other colors, too. And there are many other
> green things beside airplanes.
Programming languages can be more or less suitable for web
applications, and I did think that Perl is considered to be suitable
for that application area (as well as for many other apps).
Even if I see the need to explain the distinction between Perl and
CGI, it should better be done in a way that doesn't cause further
confusion, and possibly discourages people from using Perl for web apps.
--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:32:33 -0700
From: Keith Keller <kkeller-spammmm@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <hmiogb.r43.ln@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us>
-----BEGIN xxx SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
In article <etod6flnd8s.fsf@wormtongue.emschwar>, Eric Schwartz wrote:
> I'd counter that you don't need the Camel at all once you've gotten
> through the Llama. The Camel, handy as it was for learning the
> language (I'm a masochist, and went with it, albeit the perl4 version,
> when I first learned the language), isn't really very much more than
> some commentary on top of the perldocs; I found that nearly every time
> I was confused between the Camel and Perl, it was because the book was
> out-of-date.
Perhaps so, but the third edition of the Camel has quite a lot of
new commentary over the perldocs. In addition, it's much more
organized than previous editions, so it's easier to find information.
If you haven't seen the third edition, I suggest you take a look
at it to see if it meets your needs better than previous editions.
(Though I suppose the Camel can be seen as a crutch--I'm not as
proficient with perldoc as I would be if I didn't own a Camel.)
- --keith
- --
kkeller-mmmspam@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
alt.os.linux.slackware FAQ: http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/cgi-bin/fom
-----BEGIN xxx SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iEYEARECAAYFAj8vzg8ACgkQhVcNCxZ5ID8BDACfZay8XaOzISqc+gGRDIn2L8Rv
YbEAoIQ43Q3/KDZuFwwgORFa0OtnjwJa
=uJx4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:53:02 +0200
From: "Janek Schleicher" <bigj@kamelfreund.de>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <pan.2003.08.05.09.56.11.749728@kamelfreund.de>
David Oswald wrote at Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:00:58 -0700:
> Honestly, though the perldoc pages are extensive, comprehensive, up-to-date,
> and generally great for reference and learning, I still feel that you're not
> going to get very far on your quest to effectively learn Perl without the
> following $150 investment in books from O'REILLY:
> The Llama book, "Learning Perl".
> The Camel book, "Programming Perl."
> The Owls book, "Mastering Regular Expressions."
> ...and for CGI, the Mouse book, "CGI Programming on the WWW."
>
> There are others which you'll want to add to your collection as time goes
> by: Advanced Perl Programming, the Perl Cookbook, and maybe Perl in a
> Nutshell, as well as others that delve into more specialized categories such
> as database programming or network interfacing, but to begin with, you just
> can't avoid getting the basics down with some good, well written books.
> [...]
> You should be looking at www.cpan.org, search.cpan.org, www.perlfaq.com,
> www.perl.com, and take it from there. Once you have access to a Perl
> installation, all the perldoc pages are already at your fingertips. The
> included perldocs, perlfaqs, and perltutorials are great, and will teach you
> a lot. But as I said before, I think it takes going through a few good
> books to get the true flavor and feel. In the Mastering Regular Expressions
> book the author states the following insightful comment: "You can talk all
> you want about how paints adhere to canvas, and the science of how colors
> blend, but this won't make you a great painter. With painting as with any
> art, you must touch on the human aspect to really make a statement" He was
> speaking of regular expressions and why his book was helpful, but his
> statement, I feel, speaks for Perl as well.
>
> Also, comp.lang.perl, the Usenet group, is dead, gone, obliterated, disused,
> depricated, and otherwise not suitable for human consumption. Stick to
> comp.lang.perl.misc. Using the discontinued group indicates a failure to
> read the FAQ's, and won't win friends or influence people.
Let's give the OP also the hint how he would have found the answer to his
question for itself on the shortest way:
Just type
perldoc -q book
Greetings,
Janek
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:47:17 GMT
From: Bart Lateur <bart.lateur@pandora.be>
Subject: Re: Brand New to Perl
Message-Id: <c4rviv0v8ba272jkc2383nlpuofffumht0@4ax.com>
noone wrote:
> am kind of short on money, being a college student and all, and I have
>looked at several bookstores for books about perl and:
>1. I don't know what topics I should be looking for to learn the basics
>of the perl language.
>2. Most of the books are too much for me to shell out right now
>(especially with my lack of understanding of what I should be looking for).
OK, cheap ways to get started with perl:
* Check out what they recommend on <http://learn.perl.org>
* Subscribe to one or more of the mailinglists of your interest.
* Get a user account on <http://perlmonks.org> (free).
>So far, I understand enough that I have downloaded free scripts and used
>them on my locally hosted site, but obviously that puts me at the mercy of
>the availibilty of free scripts and also of the scripts' authors code.
You mean the Matt's Script Archive stuff? You're right in being very
wary of them. Matt wrote them more than 6 years ago when he was still
going to school, and they never really got any serious update. They kind
of work, but they chouldn't be used as an example on how to write
scripts for the Web.
--
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
The Perl-Users Digest is a retransmission of the USENET newsgroup
comp.lang.perl.misc. For subscription or unsubscription requests, send
the single line:
subscribe perl-users
or:
unsubscribe perl-users
to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu.
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
clpa@perl.com.
To request back copies (available for a week or so), send your request
to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu with the command "send perl-users x.y",
where x is the volume number and y is the issue number.
For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
answer them even if I did know the answer.
------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 5313
***************************************
