[22058] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4280 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Dec 18 09:10:41 2002
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 06:10:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 18 Dec 2002 Volume: 10 Number: 4280
Today's topics:
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: tadmc@augustmail.com
Re: RESIZE IMAGES PERL MODULES? <jim@jimmelanson.ca>
Re: scripting advice? perl + sh <bart.lateur@pandora.be>
Why do beginners read files into an array? <me@privacy.net>
Re: Why do beginners read files into an array? <koos_pol@NO.nl.JUNK.compuware.MAIL.com>
Re: Why do beginners read files into an array? <ian@WINDOZEdigiserv.net>
Re: Why do beginners read files into an array? <BROWNHIK@Syntegra.Bt.Co.Uk>
Re: Why do beginners read files into an array? <jim@jimmelanson.ca>
Re: Why do beginners read files into an array? (Tad McClellan)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 06:50:30 -0600
From: tadmc@augustmail.com
Subject: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.2 $)
Message-Id: <Z22dnSWAupGL8p2jXTWc2Q@august.net>
Outline
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
- Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
Really Really Should
- Lurk for a while before posting
- Search a Usenet archive
If You Like
- Check Other Resources
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Is there a better place to ask your question?
- Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
- Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
- Use an effective followup style
- Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
- Ask perl to help you
- Do not re-type Perl code
- Provide enough information
- Do not provide too much information
- Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
Social faux pas to avoid
- Asking a Frequently Asked Question
- Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
- Asking for emailed answers
- Beware of saying "doesn't work"
- Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
Be extra cautious when you get upset
- Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
- Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.2 $)
This newsgroup, commonly called clpmisc, is a technical newsgroup
intended to be used for discussion of Perl related issues (except job
postings), whether it be comments or questions.
As you would expect, clpmisc discussions are usually very technical in
nature and there are conventions for conduct in technical newsgroups
going somewhat beyond those in non-technical newsgroups.
This article describes things that you should, and should not, do to
increase your chances of getting an answer to your Perl question. It is
available in POD, HTML and plain text formats at:
http://mail.augustmail.com/~tadmc/clpmisc.shtml
For more information about netiquette in general, see the "Netiquette
Guidelines" at:
http://andrew2.andrew.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc1855.html
A note to newsgroup "regulars":
Please do not use the existence of these guidelines as a
"license to flame" or other meanness. It is possible that
a poster is not aware of the things discussed here. Let's
give them the benefit of the doubt, and just help them learn
how to post, rather than assume that they do know and are
being the "bad kind" of Lazy.
A note about technical terms used here:
In this document, we use words like "must" and "should" in the
very precise sense that they're used in technical conversation
(such as you're likely to encounter in this newsgroup). When
we say that you *must* do something, we mean that if you don't
do that something, then it's very unlikely that you're going to
get much benefit from using this group. We're not trying to boss
you around; we're just trying to convey the point without using
a lot of words.
Do *NOT* send email to the maintainer of these guidelines. It will be
discarded unread. The guidelines belong to the newsgroup so all
discussion should appear in the newsgroup. I am just the secretary that
writes down the consensus of the group.
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
This section describes things that you *must* do before posting to
clpmisc, in order to maximize your chances of getting meaningful replies
to your inquiry and to avoid getting flamed for being lazy and trying to
have others do your work.
The perl distribution includes documentation that is copied to your hard
drive when you install perl. Also installed is a program for looking
things up in that (and other) documentation named 'perldoc'.
You should either find out where the docs got installed on your system,
or use perldoc to find them for you. Type "perldoc perldoc" to learn how
to use perldoc itself. Type "perldoc perl" to start reading Perl's
standard documentation.
Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Checking the FAQ before posting is required in Big 8 newsgroups in
general, there is nothing clpmisc-specific about this requirement.
You are expected to do this in nearly all newsgroups.
You can use the "-q" switch with perldoc to do a word search of the
questions in the Perl FAQs.
Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
The perl distribution comes with much more documentation than is
available for most other newsgroups, so in clpmisc you should also
see if you can find an answer in the other (non-FAQ) standard docs
before posting.
It is *not* required, or even expected, that you actually *read* all of
Perl's standard docs, only that you spend a few minutes searching them
before posting.
Try doing a word-search in the standard docs for some words/phrases
taken from your problem statement or from your very carefully worded
"Subject:" header.
Really Really Should
This section describes things that you *really should* do before posting
to clpmisc.
Lurk for a while before posting
This is very important and is expected regardless of what newsgroup
you are visiting. Lurking means to simply monitor a newsgroup for a
period of time until you become very familiar with local customs.
Think of a newsgroup as foreign culture. Each newsgroup has its own
specific customs and rituals. Get to know those customs and rituals
well before you participate. This will help you to avoid
embarrassing social situations. Consider yourself to be a foreigner
at first!
Search a Usenet archive
There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers. It is very likely
that your question has already been asked (and answered). See if you
can find where it has already been answered.
One such searchable archive is:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search
If You Like
This section describes things that you *can* do before posting to
clpmisc.
Check Other Resources
You may want to check in books or on web sites to see if you can
find the answer to your question.
But you need to consider the source of such information: there are a
lot of very poor Perl books and web sites, and several good ones
too, of course.
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
There can be 200 messages in clpmisc in a single day. Nobody is going to
read every article. They must decide somehow which articles they are
going to read, and which they will skip.
Your post is in competition with 199 other posts. You need to "win"
before a person who can help you will even read your question.
These sections describe how you can help keep your article from being
one of the "skipped" ones.
Is there a better place to ask your question?
Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
It can be difficult to separate out where your problem really is,
but you should make a conscious effort to post to the most
applicable newsgroup. That is, after all, where you are the most
likely to find the people who know how to answer your question.
Being able to "partition" a problem is an essential skill for
effectively troubleshooting programming problems. If you don't get
that right, you end up looking for answers in the wrong places.
It should be understood that you may not know that the root of your
problem is not Perl-related (the two most frequent ones are CGI and
Operating System related), so off-topic postings will happen from
time to time. Be gracious when someone helps you find a better place
to ask your question by pointing you to a more applicable newsgroup.
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
You have 40 precious characters of Subject to win out and be one of
the posts that gets read. Don't waste them. Take care while
composing them, they are the key that opens the door to getting an
answer.
Spend them indicating what aspect of Perl others will find if they
should decide to read your article.
Do not spend them indicating "experience level" (guru, newbie...).
Do not spend them pleading (please read, urgent, help!...).
Do not spend them on non-Subjects (Perl question, one-word
Subject...)
For more information on choosing a Subject see "Choosing Good
Subject Lines":
http://www.perl.com/CPAN-local/authors/Dean_Roehrich/subjects.post
Part of the beauty of newsgroup dynamics, is that you can contribute
to the community with your very first post! If your choice of
Subject leads a fellow Perler to find the thread you are starting,
then even asking a question helps us all.
Use an effective followup style
When composing a followup, quote only enough text to establish the
context for the comments that you will add. Always indicate who
wrote the quoted material. Never quote an entire article. Never
quote a .signature (unless that is what you are commenting on).
Intersperse your comments *following* the sections of quoted text
that your comments apply to. Failure to do this is called "Jeopardy"
posting because the answer comes before the question.
Reversing the chronology of the dialog makes it much harder to
understand (some folks won't even read it if written in that style).
For more information on quoting style, see:
http://www.geocities.com/nnqweb/nquote.html
Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
Perl is much more precise than natural language. Saying it in Perl
instead will avoid misunderstanding your question or problem.
Do not say: I have variable with "foo\tbar" in it.
Instead say: I have $var = "foo\tbar", or I have $var = 'foo\tbar',
or I have $var = <DATA> (and show the data line).
Ask perl to help you
You can ask perl itself to help you find common programming mistakes
by doing two things: enable warnings (perldoc warnings) and enable
"strict"ures (perldoc strict).
You should not bother the hundreds/thousands of readers of the
newsgroup without first seeing if a machine can help you find your
problem. It is demeaning to be asked to do the work of a machine. It
will annoy the readers of your article.
You can look up any of the messages that perl might issue to find
out what the message means and how to resolve the potential mistake
(perldoc perldiag). If you would like perl to look them up for you,
you can put "use diagnostics;" near the top of your program.
Do not re-type Perl code
Use copy/paste or your editor's "import" function rather than
attempting to type in your code. If you make a typo you will get
followups about your typos instead of about the question you are
trying to get answered.
Provide enough information
If you do the things in this item, you will have an Extremely Good
chance of getting people to try and help you with your problem!
These features are a really big bonus toward your question winning
out over all of the other posts that you are competing with.
First make a short (less than 20-30 lines) and *complete* program
that illustrates the problem you are having. People should be able
to run your program by copy/pasting the code from your article. (You
will find that doing this step very often reveals your problem
directly. Leading to an answer much more quickly and reliably than
posting to Usenet.)
Describe *precisely* the input to your program. Also provide example
input data for your program. If you need to show file input, use the
__DATA__ token (perldata.pod) to provide the file contents inside of
your Perl program.
Show the output (including the verbatim text of any messages) of
your program.
Describe how you want the output to be different from what you are
getting.
If you have no idea at all of how to code up your situation, be sure
to at least describe the 2 things that you *do* know: input and
desired output.
Do not provide too much information
Do not just post your entire program for debugging. Most especially
do not post someone *else's* entire program.
Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
clpmisc is a text only newsgroup. If you have images or binaries
that explain your question, put them in a publically accessible
place (like a Web server) and provide a pointer to that location. If
you include code, cut and paste it directly in the message body.
Don't attach anything to the message. Don't post vcards or HTML.
Many people (and even some Usenet servers) will automatically filter
out such messages. Many people will not be able to easily read your
post. Plain text is something everyone can read.
Social faux pas to avoid
The first two below are symptoms of lots of FAQ asking here in clpmisc.
It happens so often that folks will assume that it is happening yet
again. If you have looked but not found, or found but didn't understand
the docs, say so in your article.
Asking a Frequently Asked Question
It should be understood that you may have missed the applicable FAQ
when you checked, which is not a big deal. But if the Frequently
Asked Question is worded similar to your question, folks will assume
that you did not look at all. Don't become indignant at pointers to
the FAQ, particularly if it solves your problem.
Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
If folks think you have not even tried the obvious step of reading
the docs applicable to your problem, they are likely to become
annoyed.
If you are flamed for not checking when you *did* check, then just
shrug it off (and take the answer that you got).
Asking for emailed answers
Emailed answers benefit one person. Posted answers benefit the
entire community. If folks can take the time to answer your
question, then you can take the time to go get the answer in the
same place where you asked the question.
It is OK to ask for a *copy* of the answer to be emailed, but many
will ignore such requests anyway. If you munge your address, you
should never expect (or ask) to get email in response to a Usenet
post.
Ask the question here, get the answer here (maybe).
Beware of saying "doesn't work"
This is a "red flag" phrase. If you find yourself writing that,
pause and see if you can't describe what is not working without
saying "doesn't work". That is, describe how it is not what you
want.
Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
A "stealth Cc" is when you both email and post a reply without
indicating *in the body* that you are doing so.
Be extra cautious when you get upset
Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
This is recommended in all Usenet newsgroups. Here in clpmisc, most
flaming sub-threads are not about any feature of Perl at all! They
are most often for what was seen as a breach of netiquette. If you
have lurked for a bit, then you will know what is expected and won't
make such posts in the first place.
But if you get upset, wait a while before writing your followup. I
recommend waiting at least 30 minutes.
Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
After you have written your followup, wait *another* 30 minutes
before committing yourself by posting it. You cannot take it back
once it has been said.
AUTHOR
Tad McClellan <tadmc@augustmail.com> and many others on the
comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:30:57 -0500
From: "Jim Melanson" <jim@jimmelanson.ca>
Subject: Re: RESIZE IMAGES PERL MODULES?
Message-Id: <%M_L9.11717$i%.2235577@localhost>
ImageMagick can be found at www.imagemagick.org
--
President & Founder
Perl Services
www.perlservices.net
Director of Programming,
Robinson Internet Solutions
www.robinsoninternet.com
Founder of Charity Ware, 1997
www.charityware.ws
Owner and Developer
IconLink - Desktop to Website Integration
www.iconlink.ca
International Who's Who
of Information Technology
Member since 2000
jim@perlservices.net
jim@robinsoninternet.com
jim@charityware.ws
jim@iconlink.ca
ICQ# 116084898
1-877-751-5900 North America
1-760-249-3676 International
1-208-694-1613 FAX
"Do or do not. There is no try."
--- Yoda
===========================
"To do is to be" - Descartes
"To be is to do" - Voltaire
"Do be do be do" - Sinatra
"Federico Bari" <fede72bari@tiscali.it> wrote in message
news:atk098$q53$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it...
> Hi All,
>
> do somebody know if perl modules for resizing images exist??? Thank
you
> very much,
>
>
> Federico.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:06:26 GMT
From: Bart Lateur <bart.lateur@pandora.be>
Subject: Re: scripting advice? perl + sh
Message-Id: <1el00v8ldisvsia99dmdlqts3lpbsofkse@4ax.com>
Alan wrote:
>In the perl we'll use something like
>
>@script_lines =
> "appdir=\"/lib/modules/$osrel/kernel/drivers/net/appsys\"",
> "if [ -f $dnedir/dneinit.conf ]; then",
> " . $dnedir/dneinit.conf",
> "else",
> ;
><snip>
Ue a here-doc.
$script_lines = <<"PART-1";
appdir="/lib/modules/$osrel/kernel/drivers/net/appsys"
if [ -f $dnedir/dneinit.conf ]; then
. $dnedir/dneinit.conf
else
PART-1
The end delimiter should *exactly* match what's between the quotes after
the "<<". Thus it must be aligned to the far left of the line, and no
trailing spaces; or, in general, use the exact same amount of spaces on
the left and on the right of the delimiter in both places. No extra
spaces, likely is easier.
--
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 22:55:12 +1100
From: "Tintin" <me@privacy.net>
Subject: Why do beginners read files into an array?
Message-Id: <atpnn4$1cv63$2@ID-172104.news.dfncis.de>
Can anyone come up with a plausible reason why so many beginners write code
like:
open FILE, "data.txt";
@var=<FILE>;
close FILE;
foreach $line (@var) {
print $line;
}
Where does this logic come from?
The only reason I can come up with is that the newbies are learning from bad
examples.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:08:13 +0100
From: Koos Pol <koos_pol@NO.nl.JUNK.compuware.MAIL.com>
Subject: Re: Why do beginners read files into an array?
Message-Id: <newscache$rpdb7h$2nl$1@news.emea.compuware.com>
Tintin wrote:
> Can anyone come up with a plausible reason why so many beginners write
> code like:
>
> open FILE, "data.txt";
> @var=<FILE>;
> close FILE;
>
> foreach $line (@var) {
> print $line;
> }
>
> Where does this logic come from?
>
> The only reason I can come up with is that the newbies are learning from
> bad examples.
Keeping open links to system files as minimal or as short as possible
(NFS!), does not seem silly to me.
--
KP
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:26:25 GMT
From: "Ian.H [dS]" <ian@WINDOZEdigiserv.net>
Subject: Re: Why do beginners read files into an array?
Message-Id: <dbq00v033b6pic4tginr4p0svv1odq0q5j@4ax.com>
Keywords: Remove WINDOZE to reply
-----BEGIN xxx SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
In a fit of excitement on Wed, 18 Dec 2002 22:55:12 +1100, "Tintin"
<me@privacy.net> managed to scribble:
> Can anyone come up with a plausible reason why so many beginners
> write code like:
>
> open FILE, "data.txt";
> @var=<FILE>;
> close FILE;
>
> foreach $line (@var) {
> print $line;
> }
>
> Where does this logic come from?
>
> The only reason I can come up with is that the newbies are learning
> from bad examples.
When I started reading about Perl, IIRC, that was the most used type of
example in just about everything I read for reading a file. This was
about 3-4 years ago now, so it would seem like it's still being used
heavily.
I personally believe it depends on what you wish to do with the data.
Regards,
Ian
-----BEGIN xxx SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.5.3
iQA/AwUBPgBp32fqtj251CDhEQKDgwCeJONcnqSQXGCgpYmdsyFm3dyZ29MAoPyi
nDsD9UKZU8i/34GlgkB8Bner
=2Otv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Ian.H [Design & Development]
digiServ Network - Web solutions
www.digiserv.net | irc.digiserv.net | forum.digiserv.net
Scripting, Web design, development & hosting.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:36:53 -0000
From: "Kevin Brownhill" <BROWNHIK@Syntegra.Bt.Co.Uk>
Subject: Re: Why do beginners read files into an array?
Message-Id: <atpqh6$jek$1@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>
"Tintin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:atpnn4$1cv63$2@ID-172104.news.dfncis.de...
> Can anyone come up with a plausible reason why so many beginners write
code
> like:
>
> open FILE, "data.txt";
> @var=<FILE>;
> close FILE;
>
> foreach $line (@var) {
> print $line;
> }
>
> Where does this logic come from?
>
> The only reason I can come up with is that the newbies are learning from
bad
> examples.
>
>
>
The only one I can think of is if the program needs to read the same file
several times.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:34:49 -0500
From: "Jim Melanson" <jim@jimmelanson.ca>
Subject: Re: Why do beginners read files into an array?
Message-Id: <DQ_L9.11718$i%.2235983@localhost>
The "newbies" are learning from the experienced web application developers.
Dump the file into an array and close the dang file as quickly as you can.
When you are on a busy site with thousands of hits per hour, you want that
file open as little as possible. Dumping the contents to an array will allow
you to extract the data and manipulate the content.
When I was a "newbie" i had too many experiences of a file being wiped out
becuase there was too much reading and writing going on at the same time.
--
President & Founder
Perl Services
www.perlservices.net
Director of Programming,
Robinson Internet Solutions
www.robinsoninternet.com
Founder of Charity Ware, 1997
www.charityware.ws
Owner and Developer
IconLink - Desktop to Website Integration
www.iconlink.ca
International Who's Who
of Information Technology
Member since 2000
jim@perlservices.net
jim@robinsoninternet.com
jim@charityware.ws
jim@iconlink.ca
ICQ# 116084898
1-877-751-5900 North America
1-760-249-3676 International
1-208-694-1613 FAX
"Do or do not. There is no try."
--- Yoda
===========================
"To do is to be" - Descartes
"To be is to do" - Voltaire
"Do be do be do" - Sinatra
"Tintin" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:atpnn4$1cv63$2@ID-172104.news.dfncis.de...
> Can anyone come up with a plausible reason why so many beginners write
code
> like:
>
> open FILE, "data.txt";
> @var=<FILE>;
> close FILE;
>
> foreach $line (@var) {
> print $line;
> }
>
> Where does this logic come from?
>
> The only reason I can come up with is that the newbies are learning from
bad
> examples.
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 06:58:44 -0600
From: tadmc@augustmail.com (Tad McClellan)
Subject: Re: Why do beginners read files into an array?
Message-Id: <slrnb00s84.24h.tadmc@magna.augustmail.com>
Koos Pol <koos_pol@NO.nl.JUNK.compuware.MAIL.com> wrote:
> Tintin wrote:
>> @var=<FILE>;
>> foreach $line (@var) {
>> Where does this logic come from?
> Keeping open links to system files as minimal or as short as possible
> (NFS!), does not seem silly to me.
Reading the entire file into memory when only 1 line at a time
is needed does seem silly to me.
Everything is a trade-off. :-)
--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
tadmc@augustmail.com Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
The Perl-Users Digest is a retransmission of the USENET newsgroup
comp.lang.perl.misc. For subscription or unsubscription requests, send
the single line:
subscribe perl-users
or:
unsubscribe perl-users
to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu.
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
clpa@perl.com.
To request back copies (available for a week or so), send your request
to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu with the command "send perl-users x.y",
where x is the volume number and y is the issue number.
For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
answer them even if I did know the answer.
------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 4280
***************************************
