[18358] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 526 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Mar 19 06:10:31 2001
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:10:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Message-Id: <985000212-v10-i526@ruby.oce.orst.edu>
Content-Type: text
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 19 Mar 2001 Volume: 10 Number: 526
Today's topics:
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Andrew Johnson)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <uri@sysarch.com>
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Andrew Johnson)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <nospam@nospam.net>
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <nospam@nospam.net>
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <uri@sysarch.com>
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Andrew Johnson)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Abigail)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Abigail)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <bart.lateur@skynet.be>
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <bart.lateur@skynet.be>
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <bart.lateur@skynet.be>
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine (Abigail)
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <bart.lateur@skynet.be>
Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine <nospam@nospam.net>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 16 Sep 99) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:50:24 GMT
From: andrew-johnson@home.com (Andrew Johnson)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <Q_ht6.11343$rB2.925700@news1.rdc1.mb.home.com>
In article <3AB54A97.94F65988@home.com>,
Michael Carman <mjcarman@home.com> wrote:
[snip]
> the rest of the book, I wouldn't consider it a good text. The general
> consensus here for Perl books is don't buy anything that doesn't say
> O'Reilly on it.
As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, other publishers also have
good offerings. I don't think there is the general consensus that you
say there is.
[snip]
> No -w or strict. Bad book!
The problem with this kind of blanket statement is that it will often
be plain wrong. Flipping through 'Learning Perl 2nd ed' (O'Reilly),
'Programming Perl 2nd ed' (O'Reilly), 'Perl Cookbook' (O'Reilly), and
'Advanced Perl Programming' (O'Reilly) -- I can find example
programs (not syntax snippets, but complete programs) that do not
have -w and/or do not 'use strict'. Don't you find that a little hard
to reconcile with your earlier statement?
regards,
andrew
--
Andrew L. Johnson http://members.home.net/andrew-johnson/
In theory, there's no difference between
theory and practice, but in practice there is!
------------------------------
Date: 18 Mar 2001 23:02:12 -0800
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <m1n1aimebv.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com>
>>>>> "Tad" == Tad McClellan <tadmc@augustmail.com> writes:
Tad> So then you must have missed the articles mentioning:
Tad> "Object Oriented Perl" Damian Conway (Manning)
Tad> "Elements of Programming with Perl" Andrew Johnson (Manning)
Tad> "Effective Perl Programming" Joseph Hall (Addison-Wesley)
Tad> "Perl: The Programmer's Companion" Nigel Chapman (John Wiley and Sons)
And "Network Programming with Perl", by Dr. Lincoln Stein, PhD, MD
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
------------------------------
Date: 18 Mar 2001 23:04:33 -0800
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <m1g0game7y.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com>
>>>>> "David" == David Ehrens <nospam@nospam.net> writes:
David> I generally share your high regard for O'Reilly's books, but
David> even the first edition of the Perl book by Larry Wall and
David> Randal Schwartz was bad. In an effort to put the reader at
David> ease, the discussion of splice, pop, push, etc. is so
David> convoluted that the author has to keep going back over
David> things. At one point, after a particularly poor job of
David> explaining Perl array functions, the author says, "Now that
David> you've waded through this lengthy explanation of splice(), we
David> should tell you that you'll almost never use it." But a few
David> pages later, he says, "Just so you don't think the splice()
David> function is totally useless, here's an actual...". Aaargh!
David> Then, the book finishes up with a lot of unexplained examples
David> of Perl programs. Filler.
The first edition of the Learning Perl book doesn't mention splice()
even in the slightest. I'd know. Perhaps you're confusing my book
with another.
That makes your entire comment suspect. Reader beware.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:07:16 GMT
From: Uri Guttman <uri@sysarch.com>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <x7r8zu44pm.fsf@home.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "RLS" == Randal L Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> writes:
>>>>> "Tad" == Tad McClellan <tadmc@augustmail.com> writes:
Tad> So then you must have missed the articles mentioning:
Tad> "Object Oriented Perl" Damian Conway (Manning)
Tad> "Elements of Programming with Perl" Andrew Johnson (Manning)
Tad> "Effective Perl Programming" Joseph Hall (Addison-Wesley)
Tad> "Perl: The Programmer's Companion" Nigel Chapman (John Wiley and Sons)
RLS> And "Network Programming with Perl", by Dr. Lincoln Stein, PhD, MD
and "Data Munging with Perl", by David Cross (another Manning book).
manning has 3 perl books out (OOP, elements, and munging) and all are
winners. better percentage than o'reilly which has a few dog perl books.
only time will tell if manning can keep up that batting average.
uri
--
Uri Guttman --------- uri@sysarch.com ---------- http://www.sysarch.com
SYStems ARCHitecture, Software Engineering, Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
The Perl Books Page ----------- http://www.sysarch.com/cgi-bin/perl_books
The Best Search Engine on the Net ---------- http://www.northernlight.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:16:27 GMT
From: andrew-johnson@home.com (Andrew Johnson)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <fnit6.11347$rB2.927362@news1.rdc1.mb.home.com>
In article <m1g0game7y.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com>,
Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
> >>>>> "David" == David Ehrens <nospam@nospam.net> writes:
>
> David> I generally share your high regard for O'Reilly's books, but
> David> even the first edition of the Perl book by Larry Wall and
> David> Randal Schwartz was bad. In an effort to put the reader at
[snip]
> The first edition of the Learning Perl book doesn't mention splice()
> even in the slightest. I'd know. Perhaps you're confusing my book
> with another.
>
> That makes your entire comment suspect. Reader beware.
I think he is referring to the pink camel, not the llama.
> David> Then, the book finishes up with a lot of unexplained examples
> David> of Perl programs. Filler.
Hmm, calling chapter 6 of the pink camel 'filler' makes his entire
comment suspect anyway :-)
andrew
--
Andrew L. Johnson http://members.home.net/andrew-johnson/
They're not soaking, they're rusting!
-- my wife on my dishwashing habits
------------------------------
Date: 18 Mar 2001 23:37:08 -0800
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <m1u24qky57.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com>
>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Johnson <andrew-johnson@home.com> writes:
>>>>> "David" == David Ehrens <nospam@nospam.net> writes:
Andrew> I think he is referring to the pink camel, not the llama.
David> Then, the book finishes up with a lot of unexplained examples
David> of Perl programs. Filler.
Andrew> Hmm, calling chapter 6 of the pink camel 'filler' makes his entire
Andrew> comment suspect anyway :-)
Ahh, the cookbook section that was so important that when I decided to
leave it out of Camel 2, Tom Christiansen ran off and made a ton of
money on it being an independent book without giving me credit for
either dropping it from Camel 2 so that he could do that or credit for
inventing the section in the first Camel borrowing from time-tested
ideas that I had used in successful technical manuals for 15 years
prior, which I promised my therapist I would not display my anger in
public about. That section. Yeah.
:-)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:47:43 GMT
From: "David Ehrens" <nospam@nospam.net>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <zQit6.314$587.24872@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
"Randal L. Schwartz" <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote in message
news:m1g0game7y.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com...
...
> The first edition of the Learning Perl book doesn't mention splice()
> even in the slightest. I'd know. Perhaps you're confusing my book
> with another.
>
> That makes your entire comment suspect. Reader beware.
Well, sorry I hurt your feelings, but the section I mention was in the
"camel" book with the pink spine, ISBN 0-937175-64-1 (March 1992), pages
13-20. I don't think readers need to worry about MY honesty.
I believe the new edition is better, but I don't think you co-authored
that one. My point was that not all O'Reilly books are good.
David Ehrens
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:53:00 GMT
From: "David Ehrens" <nospam@nospam.net>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <wVit6.331$587.25617@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
"Andrew Johnson" <andrew-johnson@home.com> wrote in message
news:fnit6.11347$rB2.927362@news1.rdc1.mb.home.com...
...
> Hmm, calling chapter 6 of the pink camel 'filler' makes his entire
> comment suspect anyway :-)
Hmmm. The section of that book, "Real Perl Programs," contains almost
100 pages of Perl programs with virtually no discussion of what they do.
I'd call that filler. If the author had bothered to add some annotation,
it would have been useful.
David Ehrens
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:07:35 GMT
From: Uri Guttman <uri@sysarch.com>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <x7k85m41x2.fsf@home.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "DE" == David Ehrens <nospam@nospam.net> writes:
DE> "Randal L. Schwartz" <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote in message
DE> news:m1g0game7y.fsf@halfdome.holdit.com... ...
>> The first edition of the Learning Perl book doesn't mention
>> splice() even in the slightest. I'd know. Perhaps you're
>> confusing my book with another.
>>
>> That makes your entire comment suspect. Reader beware.
DE> Well, sorry I hurt your feelings, but the section I mention was in
DE> the "camel" book with the pink spine, ISBN 0-937175-64-1 (March
DE> 1992), pages 13-20. I don't think readers need to worry about MY
DE> honesty.
DE> I believe the new edition is better, but I don't think you
DE> co-authored that one. My point was that not all O'Reilly books are
DE> good.
few of us supprt that claim. but your comments and such make it easy to
claim that your opinions on perl books are not worth much, even if they
are on target.
uri
--
Uri Guttman --------- uri@sysarch.com ---------- http://www.sysarch.com
SYStems ARCHitecture, Software Engineering, Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
The Perl Books Page ----------- http://www.sysarch.com/cgi-bin/perl_books
The Best Search Engine on the Net ---------- http://www.northernlight.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:21:14 GMT
From: andrew-johnson@home.com (Andrew Johnson)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <_jjt6.11349$rB2.929933@news1.rdc1.mb.home.com>
In article <wVit6.331$587.25617@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
David Ehrens <nospam@nospam.net> wrote:
> "Andrew Johnson" <andrew-johnson@home.com> wrote in message
> news:fnit6.11347$rB2.927362@news1.rdc1.mb.home.com...
> ...
> > Hmm, calling chapter 6 of the pink camel 'filler' makes his entire
> > comment suspect anyway :-)
>
> Hmmm. The section of that book, "Real Perl Programs," contains almost
> 100 pages of Perl programs with virtually no discussion of what they do.
> I'd call that filler. If the author had bothered to add some annotation,
> it would have been useful.
Difference of perception I guess -- my perception: It was not a
tutorial chapter, it was a collection of real world programs that
each had a task description and most were adequately commented as
well. They weren't there for the authors to walk you through, they
were there to give *you* something to walk through, and a jumping off
point for related tasks.
andrew
--
Andrew L. Johnson http://members.home.net/andrew-johnson/
Doing linear scans over an associative array is like
trying to club someone to death with a loaded Uzi.
-- Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: 19 Mar 2001 09:21:21 GMT
From: abigail@foad.org (Abigail)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <slrn9bbjsh.m93.abigail@tsathoggua.rlyeh.net>
Tad McClellan (tadmc@augustmail.com) wrote on MMDCCLVII September
MCMXCIII in <URL:news:slrn9bara9.2ju.tadmc@tadmc26.august.net>:
:) Michael Carman <mjcarman@home.com> wrote:
:) >Abigail wrote:
:) >>
:) >> Michael Carman (mjcarman@home.com) wrote:
:) >> || The general consensus here for Perl books is don't buy
:) >> || anything that doesn't say O'Reilly on it.
:) >>
:) >> That's not the general consensus at all.
:) >
:) >Well, my observations of this newgroup have been that Learning Perl et
:) >al. published by O'Reilly are well-respected. Every other book I've seen
:) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:) >mentioned here has been chastised (with good reason).
:)
:)
:) So then you must have missed the articles mentioning:
:)
:) "Object Oriented Perl" Damian Conway (Manning)
:) "Elements of Programming with Perl" Andrew Johnson (Manning)
:) "Effective Perl Programming" Joseph Hall (Addison-Wesley)
:) "Perl: The Programmer's Companion" Nigel Chapman (John Wiley and Sons)
Don't forget: "Learn Perl in 24 Hours" by Clinton Pierce (SAMS)
Abigail
--
$_ = "\112\165\163\1648\141\156\157\164\150\145\1628\120\145"
. "\162\1548\110\141\143\153\145\162\0128\177" and &japh;
sub japh {print "@_" and return if pop; split /\d/ and &japh}
------------------------------
Date: 19 Mar 2001 09:22:26 GMT
From: abigail@foad.org (Abigail)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <slrn9bbjui.m93.abigail@tsathoggua.rlyeh.net>
Tad McClellan (tadmc@augustmail.com) wrote on MMDCCLVII September
MCMXCIII in <URL:news:slrn9bb0u8.3dt.tadmc@tadmc26.august.net>:
%% Michael Carman <mjcarman@home.com> wrote:
%% >Tad McClellan wrote:
%% >>
%% >> Michael Carman <mjcarman@home.com> wrote:
%% >>>
%% >>> [M]y observations of this newgroup have been that Learning Perl
%% >>> et al. published by O'Reilly are well-respected. Every other
%% >>> book I've seen mentioned here has been chastised (with good
%% >>> reason).
%% >>
%% >> So then you must have missed the articles mentioning:
%% >>
%% >> "Object Oriented Perl" Damian Conway (Manning)
%% >> "Elements of Programming with Perl" Andrew Johnson (Manning)
%% >> "Effective Perl Programming" Joseph Hall (Addison-Wesley)
%% >> "Perl: The Programmer's Companion" Nigel Chapman (John Wiley
%% >> and Sons)
%% >>
%% >> all also highly regarded.
%% >
%% >*sigh* I've got to start paying more attention to publishers. :/
%% >Better yet, I'll give up my budding career as a literary critic.
%% >
%% >Thanks for the tip; all have been added to my list of things to check
%% >out the next time I'm at the bookstore.
%%
%%
%% The astute reader will note how short the list of acceptable
%% non-O'Reilly Perl books is (I'm sure I've missed a few).
Still, it's longer than my list of acceptable ORA Perl books.
Abigail
--
package Just_another_Perl_Hacker; sub print {($_=$_[0])=~ s/_/ /g;
print } sub __PACKAGE__ { &
print ( __PACKAGE__)} &
__PACKAGE__
( )
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:03:50 GMT
From: Bart Lateur <bart.lateur@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <pcmbbt8047pkejb4ju8o5adm3a9h3kjika@4ax.com>
Tad McClellan wrote:
>The astute reader will note how short the list of acceptable
>non-O'Reilly Perl books is (I'm sure I've missed a few).
And how large is the list of acceptable O'Reilly Perl books? OK, maybe
longer than this list. A bit.
--
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:04:31 GMT
From: Bart Lateur <bart.lateur@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <1fmbbtcam2kkt4umrhq0bcol1ah7gs14ev@4ax.com>
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>Tad> So then you must have missed the articles mentioning:
>
>Tad> "Object Oriented Perl" Damian Conway (Manning)
>Tad> "Elements of Programming with Perl" Andrew Johnson (Manning)
>Tad> "Effective Perl Programming" Joseph Hall (Addison-Wesley)
>Tad> "Perl: The Programmer's Companion" Nigel Chapman (John Wiley and Sons)
>
>And "Network Programming with Perl", by Dr. Lincoln Stein, PhD, MD
"Ph D, MD"? I don't know that publisher.
--
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:06:50 GMT
From: Bart Lateur <bart.lateur@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <khmbbt4c8qgn72shsktn7e16lcidv6gmi4@4ax.com>
Kira wrote:
[a raving critique on:]
>Effective Perl Programming
>Hall, Joseph N. with Randal L. Schwartz
>1998
>Addison Wesley Longman, Inc. Mass.
>ISBN 0-201-41975-0
>Only reservation I have is I wish Hall would write more books.
One might expect that possibly he couldn't keep up his, apparently, very
high level, if he did so.
--
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: 19 Mar 2001 10:13:27 GMT
From: abigail@foad.org (Abigail)
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <slrn9bbmu7.n0a.abigail@tsathoggua.rlyeh.net>
Alan J. Flavell (flavell@mail.cern.ch) wrote on MMDCCLVII September
MCMXCIII in <URL:news:Pine.LNX.4.30.0103190157590.13884-100000@lxplus003.cern.ch>:
~~ On 19 Mar 2001, Abigail wrote:
~~
~~ > There are better Perl books out there than most of the ORA books
~~ > on Perl.
~~
~~ But how is the innocent newbie to recognise them amongst all the chaff
~~ and pot-boilers? You aren't helping. Maybe you're just so far ahead
~~ of the game that you can't identify with the problem.
Either read the usenet archives, or the rest of the thread.
Abigail
--
my $qr = /^.+?(;).+?\1|;Just another Perl Hacker;|;.+$/;
$qr =~ s/$qr//g;
print $qr, "\n";
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:14:27 GMT
From: Bart Lateur <bart.lateur@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <urmbbt82drtm0pkql2pu8kfg7kppncgaho@4ax.com>
Uri Guttman wrote:
>well, that was never made clear. you were writing as if = was a
>comparison operator.
Not really... I've read somewhere before that people with a mathematical
inclination learning to program, can have a difficult time understanding
the difference between a mathematical equation, and variable assignment
in programming. For example, they'd expect that by typing in
16 = 3*x + 4*y
25 = 2*x + 3*y
the computer would magically find the values for x and y.
I recognized the pattern.
--
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:36:24 GMT
From: "David Ehrens" <nospam@nospam.net>
Subject: Re: Why do "Learning Perl" Books Do This? A Subroutine Question.
Message-Id: <cyjt6.405$587.33501@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
Maybe it's time to retire this thread? I mean, we're discussing a
10-year old book here...
------------------------------
Date: 16 Sep 99 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 526
**************************************
