[16739] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4151 Volume: 9
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Aug 28 09:18:59 2000
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 06:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Message-Id: <967468219-v9-i4151@ruby.oce.orst.edu>
Content-Type: text
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 28 Aug 2000 Volume: 9 Number: 4151
Today's topics:
New posters to comp.lang.perl.misc <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>
perlcc - Compiler errors <leebas@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Print location in <IMG> on NT <Peter.Dintelmann@dresdner-bank.com>
Regular Expression Query <greg2@surfaid.org>
Re: Regular Expression Query <stephenk@cc.gatech.edu>
Re: removing a line from a file <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
Re: selling perl to management (Martien Verbruggen)
Re: selling perl to management (Martien Verbruggen)
Re: sorting a hash by key value (I've looked at the TIE <Peter.Dintelmann@dresdner-bank.com>
spaces at the end of a string <serbr@libero.it>
Re: spaces at the end of a string <dietmar.staab@t-online.de>
Re: spaces at the end of a string <i_hate_spam@do-not-mail.org>
Re: spaces at the end of a string <i_hate_spam@do-not-mail.org>
Statistics for comp.lang.perl.misc <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>
Re: trying to pull each string from file to evaluate... <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
Re: would you recommend buying a book (Tim Hammerquist)
Re: Wrong @INC in Apache <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 16 Sep 99) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:41:50 GMT
From: Greg Bacon <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>
Subject: New posters to comp.lang.perl.misc
Message-Id: <sqkjvuqdt91123@corp.supernews.com>
Following is a summary of articles from new posters spanning a 7 day
period, beginning at 21 Aug 2000 12:39:23 GMT and ending at
28 Aug 2000 12:01:50 GMT.
Notes
=====
- A line in the body of a post is considered to be original if it
does *not* match the regular expression /^\s{0,3}(?:>|:|\S+>|\+\+)/.
- All text after the last cut line (/^-- $/) in the body is
considered to be the author's signature.
- The scanner prefers the Reply-To: header over the From: header
in determining the "real" email address and name.
- Original Content Rating (OCR) is the ratio of the original content
volume to the total body volume.
- Find the News-Scan distribution on the CPAN!
<URL:http://www.perl.com/CPAN/modules/by-module/News/>
- Please send all comments to Greg Bacon <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>.
- Copyright (c) 2000 Greg Bacon.
Verbatim copying and redistribution is permitted without royalty;
alteration is not permitted. Redistribution and/or use for any
commercial purpose is prohibited.
Totals
======
Posters: 198 (40.9% of all posters)
Articles: 361 (20.9% of all articles)
Volume generated: 633.2 kb (20.3% of total volume)
- headers: 283.4 kb (5,703 lines)
- bodies: 343.6 kb (11,547 lines)
- original: 221.4 kb (7,991 lines)
- signatures: 5.8 kb (129 lines)
Original Content Rating: 0.644
Averages
========
Posts per poster: 1.8
median: 1.0 post
mode: 1 post - 129 posters
s: 4.5 posts
Message size: 1796.2 bytes
- header: 803.9 bytes (15.8 lines)
- body: 974.7 bytes (32.0 lines)
- original: 627.9 bytes (22.1 lines)
- signature: 16.5 bytes (0.4 lines)
Top 10 Posters by Number of Posts
=================================
(kb) (kb) (kb) (kb)
Posts Volume ( hdr/ body/ orig) Address
----- -------------------------- -------
16 34.7 ( 15.7/ 18.9/ 8.0) Policy Man <reljr_2@yahoo.com>
8 20.0 ( 8.5/ 11.5/ 6.3) "Blair Heuer" <blair@geo-NOSPAM-soft.org>
8 33.7 ( 7.8/ 25.9/ 17.0) hasant@trabas.com
7 14.4 ( 5.7/ 8.7/ 3.6) filosmith@my-deja.com
6 11.2 ( 5.2/ 5.5/ 4.4) Steve Mading <madings@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu>
6 7.7 ( 4.1/ 3.5/ 1.7) jonnydeja@my-deja.com
5 7.0 ( 4.1/ 2.9/ 1.2) "Thierry" <info@ezboo.com.xx>
5 15.2 ( 3.8/ 11.4/ 4.1) flanagab@hqamc.scott.af.mil
5 7.8 ( 3.6/ 4.2/ 1.3) cghawthorne@yahoo.com
5 6.1 ( 3.8/ 2.3/ 1.2) Jonathan Palley <jpalley@jps.net>
These posters accounted for 4.1% of all articles.
Top 10 Posters by Volume
========================
(kb) (kb) (kb) (kb)
Volume ( hdr/ body/ orig) Posts Address
-------------------------- ----- -------
34.7 ( 15.7/ 18.9/ 8.0) 16 Policy Man <reljr_2@yahoo.com>
33.7 ( 7.8/ 25.9/ 17.0) 8 hasant@trabas.com
20.0 ( 8.5/ 11.5/ 6.3) 8 "Blair Heuer" <blair@geo-NOSPAM-soft.org>
15.2 ( 3.8/ 11.4/ 4.1) 5 flanagab@hqamc.scott.af.mil
14.9 ( 3.6/ 11.3/ 6.2) 5 "Chris Stith" <mischief@motion.thispartfake.net>
14.4 ( 5.7/ 8.7/ 3.6) 7 filosmith@my-deja.com
13.0 ( 2.9/ 10.0/ 5.7) 4 Brock <brock_johnson@my-deja.com>
11.2 ( 5.2/ 5.5/ 4.4) 6 Steve Mading <madings@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu>
10.8 ( 3.9/ 6.9/ 4.6) 4 daniel@chetlin.com
10.7 ( 3.7/ 7.0/ 3.5) 5 perlnewbie@my-deja.com
These posters accounted for 5.7% of the total volume.
Top 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of three posts)
==============================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Address
----- -------------- ----- -------
1.000 ( 1.4 / 1.4) 3 af778@iname.com
1.000 ( 0.7 / 0.7) 3 Manuel Ho <mslho@my-deja.com>
0.971 ( 4.4 / 4.5) 3 REMOVEMEmelonmisc@iname.com
0.908 ( 1.9 / 2.1) 3 "LecturaX Porodum" <haak12@remove.ie.hva.nl>
0.875 ( 2.7 / 3.1) 4 Richie <rsmith@sympatico.ca>
0.791 ( 4.4 / 5.5) 6 Steve Mading <madings@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu>
0.737 ( 2.5 / 3.4) 3 Ilmari Karonen <usenet11197@itz.pp.sci.fi>
0.737 ( 1.0 / 1.3) 3 "Paulino" <paulino@jccm.es>
0.692 ( 2.6 / 3.7) 3 Sarah Officer <OfficerS@aries.tucson.saic.com>
0.691 ( 3.0 / 4.3) 3 "Mark Dressel" <mark@artwarren.com>
Bottom 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of three posts)
=================================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Address
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.426 ( 1.2 / 2.8) 4 "Michael Cook" <mikecook@cigarpool.com>
0.426 ( 1.2 / 2.9) 5 "Thierry" <info@ezboo.com.xx>
0.421 ( 8.0 / 18.9) 16 Policy Man <reljr_2@yahoo.com>
0.413 ( 1.1 / 2.6) 3 "Wang FeiYun" <feiyun-arthur.wang@nokia.com>
0.412 ( 3.6 / 8.7) 7 filosmith@my-deja.com
0.410 ( 1.5 / 3.6) 3 sibban@my-deja.com
0.360 ( 4.1 / 11.4) 5 flanagab@hqamc.scott.af.mil
0.323 ( 1.3 / 4.2) 5 cghawthorne@yahoo.com
0.298 ( 0.8 / 2.6) 3 Perrin Kliot <perrin@lacis.com>
0.296 ( 2.0 / 6.8) 4 "Eric" <eric.kort@vai.org>
37 posters (18%) had at least three posts.
Top 10 Targets for Crossposts
=============================
Articles Newsgroup
-------- ---------
34 alt.perl
33 comp.lang.perl.modules
18 comp.lang.perl
7 alt.ascii-art.animation
6 comp.mail.misc
5 rec.crafts.textiles.machine-knit
3 comp.lang.awk
2 comp.lang.perl.moderated
2 comp.mail.sendmail
1 de.comp.lang.perl.misc
Top 10 Crossposters
===================
Articles Address
-------- -------
7 hasant@trabas.com
4 flanagab@hqamc.scott.af.mil
3 "Chris Stith" <mischief@motion.thispartfake.net>
3 "LecturaX Porodum" <haak12@remove.ie.hva.nl>
3 "Edvin Eshagh" <eeshagh@earthlink.net>
2 Ilmari Karonen <usenet11193@itz.pp.sci.fi>
2 "Tracy Terrell" <tracyterrell@entersysgroup.com>
2 "Tim" <no@return.com>
2 "Giovanni Loc" <newsgroup@pmail.net>
2 Vorname Nachname <Vorname.Nachname@kst.siemens.de>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:02:04 GMT
From: "Annadani Patil" <leebas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: perlcc - Compiler errors
Message-Id: <0xsq5.8054$Q36.612711@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Hi All,
I have been trying to compile some perl programs. However I had no
luck with perlcc of Perl 5.005 release. I found out from CPAN that perlcc
of perl 5.6 works. After downloading it I tried to use perlcc which gives
the
following errors. (I am attaching a sample) We have installed Redhat Linux
6.2.
Can somebody please tell me if there is a problem with my perl install or
perlcc
is still not 100%?
Compiling viewz.pl:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Making C(viewz.pl.c) for viewz.pl!
perl -I/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/i686-linux -I/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0 -I/usr/lib/per
l5/site_perl/5.6.0/i686-linux -I/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.6.0 -I/usr/lib/pe
rl5/site_perl/5.005 -I/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl -I. -MB::Stash -c viewz.pl
perl -I/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/i686-linux -I/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0 -I/usr/lib/per
l5/site_perl/5.6.0/i686-linux -I/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.6.0 -I/usr/lib/pe
rl5/site_perl/5.005 -I/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl -I. -MO=C,-umain,-uTie,-uTie:
:Hash,-uTie::StdHash,-uExporter,-uExporter::Heavy,-ustrict,-uAutoLoader,-uwa
rnings,-uwarnings::register,-uvars,-uCarp,-uCarp::Heavy,-uTime,-uTime::Local
,-uattributes,-uDB_File,-uDB_File::BTREEINFO,-uDB_File::RECNOINFO,-uDB_File:
:HASHINFO,-uDB,-uFcntl viewz.pl
Starting compile
Walking tree
No definition for sub Fcntl::O_RDONLY
No definition for sub Fcntl::O_RDONLY (unable to autoload)
Exporter saved (it is in Time::Local's @ISA)
Tie::Hash saved (it is in Tie::StdHash's @ISA)
Prescan
Saving methods
No definition for sub Fcntl::F_ALLOCSP64
No definition for sub Fcntl::F_ALLOCSP64 (unable to autoload)
No definition for sub DB_File::DB_LOCK
No definition for sub DB_File::DB_LOCK (unable to autoload)
.
.
.
.
Writing output
Loaded B
Loaded IO
Loaded Fcntl
bootstrapping Fcntl added to xs_init
Loaded DB_File
bootstrapping DB_File added to xs_init
viewz.pl syntax OK
Compiling C(viewz) for viewz.pl!
perl -I/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/i686-linux -I/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0 -I/usr/lib/per
l5/site_perl/5.6.0/i686-linux -I/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.6.0 -I/usr/lib/pe
rl5/site_perl/5.005 -I/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl -I. /tmp/viewz.pl.tst
cc -fno-strict-aliasing -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -I/usr/l
ib/perl5/5.6.0/i686-linux/CORE -o viewz
viewz.pl.c -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/i686-linux/CORE -lperl
-lnsl -lndbm -ldb -ldl -lm -lc -lposix -lcrypt
/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/i686-linux/auto/IO/IO.so
/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/i686-linux/auto/DB_File/DB_File.so
/usr/lib/perl5/5.6.0/i686-linux/auto/Fcntl/Fcntl.so
/tmp/ccuWYZpi.o: In function `xs_init':
/tmp/ccuWYZpi.o(.text+0x9b10d): undefined reference to `boot_DynaLoader'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
ERROR: In compiling code for viewz.pl.c !
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:15:24 +0200
From: "Dr. Peter Dintelmann" <Peter.Dintelmann@dresdner-bank.com>
Subject: Re: Print location in <IMG> on NT
Message-Id: <8odhkj$jps1@intranews.bank.dresdner.net>
Hi,
patrick schrieb in Nachricht <39A935B1.69AF3D9C@hongkong.com>...
>Would anybody please tell me why i can't get the image load in the html
>file (Windows 2000 server/IIS 5.0)
>
>my html statement are as follow
>==========================
><img src=http://xxx.com/cgi-bin/image.cgi>
>==========================
>
>my "image.cgi" are as follow
>==========================
>#d:\perl\bin
>
>print "Pragma: no-cache\n";
>print "Location: http://xxx.com/abc.jpg\n\n;
it works ok on my w2k+iis5 [which does not help
you anyway].
Since your problem is not a typical perl question I
would like you to send me more detailed information
by email.
Best regards,
Peter Dintelmann
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:27:53 +0100
From: Greg Griffiths <greg2@surfaid.org>
Subject: Regular Expression Query
Message-Id: <39AA4CB9.652217D3@surfaid.org>
Dear All,
I am using this code form the PERL Cookbook to remove all leading
whitespace from each line that I build into this string :
($Text=<<”EOQ”)=~s/^\s+//gm;
<html>
<body>
<script language=”javascript”>
document.location=”$BaseURL/login.html”;
</script>
</body>
</html>
EOQ
print $Text;
Is it possible to simply remove X space characters as my scripts and
HTML become very hard to read when there is no indentation at all in
them ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:03:05 -0400
From: Stephen Kloder <stephenk@cc.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Regular Expression Query
Message-Id: <39AA54F9.68A37026@cc.gatech.edu>
Greg Griffiths wrote:
> Dear All,
> I am using this code form the PERL Cookbook to remove all leading
> whitespace from each line that I build into this string :
>
> ($Text=<<”EOQ”)=~s/^\s+//gm;
> <html>
> <body>
> <script language=”javascript”>
> document.location=”$BaseURL/login.html”;
> </script>
> </body>
> </html>
> EOQ
> print $Text;
>
> Is it possible to simply remove X space characters as my scripts and
> HTML become very hard to read when there is no indentation at all in
> them ?
($Text=<<”EOQ”)=~s/^\s{8}//gm;
Replace "8" with however many spaces you wish to remove.
perldoc perlre
--
Stephen Kloder | "I say what it occurs to me to say.
stephenk@cc.gatech.edu | More I cannot say."
Phone 404-874-6584 | -- The Man in the Shack
ICQ #65153895 | be :- think.
------------------------------
Date: 28 Aug 2000 09:52:42 +0100
From: Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
Subject: Re: removing a line from a file
Message-Id: <8od98q$d86$1@orpheus.gellyfish.com>
On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:49:27 +0200 Javier Hijas wrote:
> I am looking for a good short way to remove a password entry from the
> passwd file
There is a good entry in perlfaq5 on this subject. Of course there are
other considerations in deleting entries from /etc/passwd including
applying the appropriate locking scheme that your system might use for
altering the password file and ensuring the consistency between the
password file and any other files that the authentication system on
your system uses (/etc/shadow, master.passwd or whatever). On the whole
I would recommend using 'userdel' or whatever utility your system provides
for this purpose unless you are familiar with the issues.
/J\
--
yapc::Europe in assocation with the Institute Of Contemporary Arts
<http://www.yapc.org/Europe/> <http://www.ica.org.uk>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:50:53 +1100
From: mgjv@tradingpost.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: selling perl to management
Message-Id: <slrn8qkh0d.3fr.mgjv@martien.heliotrope.home>
On 27 Aug 2000 21:52:46 GMT,
Ilya Zakharevich <ilya@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> [A complimentary Cc of this posting was NOT sent to Martien Verbruggen
> <mgjv@tradingpost.com.au>],
> who wrote in article <slrn8qhskl.3fr.mgjv@martien.heliotrope.home>:
> > > Having discussions does not guarantie anything. Since Perl has no
> > > documentation on the "this is guarantied to work" level of strictness,
> > > any discussion like this degenerates into "subjective" estimates like
> >
> > Nope. It doesn't,
>
> [Note that it is not clear what is "Nope"ated, and what is "It".
> Relevant for your other argument. ;-]
I was referring to the first statement; that having discussion doesn't
guarantee anything. And indeed I wasn't very clear :)
> > But I can turn the argument around again. No standard out there
> > guarantees anything either.
>
> Yes it does. As a minimum, it guarantees a level ground for
> discussions of backward compatibility.
Maybe, but it does not guarantee that backward compatibility is
maintained when the language changes, i.e. a new standard is going to be
written. It doesn't even guarantee that a standard will always exist
(vide Java), or that vendors won't force the issue and come up with
their own specific versions of the standard (as in HTML). I don't even
believe that, in the case of perl, a standard would be a better
guarantee than the discussions that p5p goes through now. pretty
conservative crowd over there :) I do not believe a standard give you a
future-proof language. It just gives you an implementation guide for the
here and now.
> > > Existence of a couple of examples where backward compatibility was
> > > preserved does not preclude hundreds of examples when changes broke
> > > (intentionally or not) previously working scripts.
> >
> > Yes, obscure things broke. Abigail had one or two things break in her
> > one-liners againts 5.6.0. Most things will keep working. Hardly any
> > production code that has been written for maintainability breaks.
>
> If in a 2000-line-long script/module only 0.1% of lines broke (and you
> do not know which), your argument does not quiet the worries. And
But, Perl is very good at pointing out where things break. Of course, if
the syntax is still acceptable, but the runtime effects are severely
different, that would be bad. However, has that ever happened? Without a
warning? And perldelta does tell us about things. Yes, Perl upgrades
change some things, but no more than anything else (upgrades of other
languages, compilers, interpreters), and not in a dangerous way, and
always with as much care as reasonable for the backward compatibility.
> keep in mind that documentation does not say which features are
> "obscure", which are basic. There *should* be a subset defined which is
> guarantied to stay put.
Yes. I do agree with you on this point. Although it will be hard to
define that subset. Operators, precedence, keywords, syntax. That would
probably limit it for Perl.. Even variables have changed over the
versions. However, if a standard could be written that would be broken
in two parts: An immutable core, and the rest, maybe some
future-proofness can be found.
But don't forget that C and C++ have had changes to core features in the
languages.[1]
> If we break this guarantee, we will be obliged to support the users by
> providing tools to find the dangerous pieces of the code (say, a
> special category of warnings).
*nod*
> > > > The problem is not as much with you stating that Perl changes, but with
> > > > the implication that _only_ Perl changes, and that it is because of it
> > > > not being a standardised language.
> > >
> > > The problems with this is that you imply that Perl is a standardised
> > > language. It is not. Very little [my estimates are 60%] of essential
> >
> > I do not imply that, never have, and never will, until it _is_
> > standardised. Please do not put words in my mouth. In fact, if you read
> > that paragraph again, you will note that I _explicitly_ state that Perl
> > is not standardised.
>
> I tried again, and I still cannot see this. I read what you wrote as
> "'The statement suggesting that Perl is not standardised' is problematic".
That is not the way I meant it. Rephrase:
"I think you implied that Perl is the only language that changes,
because it lacks a standard. I have trouble with that statement."
In other words, I have trouble with the statement that a
non-standardised language automatically makes it a changing (as in
backward-incompatible) language.
> In my experience the sentences which may be interpreted as having
> a double negation *will* be misread - at least on Usenet.
You are right.
> > And again, as before in the past, we agree on this. Perl needs better
> > and more formal documentation. But that is a point that is beside the
> > discussion at hand. perl is in no more or less danger of breaking things
> > between versions than other pieces of software are. Even standardised
> > pieces of software.
>
> [Again, I addressed this several times in the past. ;-]
>
> Your experience with software looks severely limited. Reading your
> statement I think about toy systems like *nix and Win*. As people
> working on mainframes will tell you, given enough incentive, it *is*
> possible to preserve backward compatibility even when doing quite
> radical changes. Even some toy systems like OS/2 show *hundreds*
> times better backward compatibility than Perl.
No, I don't have experience with mainframes from a maintenance point,
and I am not even unhappy about that :) (yet another double negative).
But, the point was that even things with standards ---and Unix _is_ a
standard, as are POSIX, SVr4, Unix98 and various other compliance
specifications--- do break backward compatibility. Maybe mainframe OS
vendors have more to lose by not being backward compatible, maybe they
have more money to spend. Maybe the OS/2 developers care more. That's
all beside the point. Standards are being broken, or changed to
accomodate the 'new times'. A standard will not protect Perl from
change. It might formalise the change process, and maybe slow change
down a bit more, but it won't stop change. It probably won't even
guarantee any better backward compatibility than we have right now.
Just think of all the stuff we're still carrying around in the language,
that no one really uses anymore, but that's solely there so Perl 4
scripts, and in some cases Perl 3 and older scripts, still run, or can
run with minimal changes. You must have personally spent quite a bit of
work in making sure that certain things didn't break when new features
came in.
> It costs. It requires dedication. But it is possible.
Yes. It costs, it requires dedication, and lots of red tape. The problem
is of course partly that the Perl development team does not have the
same sort of funding, staffing and resources as a mainframe vendor does.
I might not have mainframe experience, but I do know what's needed for
this sort of thing. :) The same things that works for a language or an
OS also go for applications with complex interfaces, internal or
external. Sometimes you make a compromise that guarantees that your
interface stays the same. It may make your software slightly more
bloated, or slower, or (more often) inelegant, but everything else will
keep working with it. Sometimes however, you need to make a leap, and
leave the old things behind.
If Perl had the same age as for example C, I would probably agree with
you that it was time for a standard that nailed it down, to the same
degree that the ISO C99 standard defines C. However, Perl is only 13
years old, and it has only been 9 years since perl 4, which I regard as
the first really stable perl. The user base of Perl has grown enormously
in the last few years. The release of perl 5, which made references, and
with it complex data structures and (a more or less useable) OO syntax,
possible has forced the language out of the niche it was in, and wedged
it firmly into another. Perl was a glue language. it is now a full
programming language.
While the previous sentence can be attacked from a formal point of view,
anyone who has used perl over the last 8 years probably will recognise
what I mean. Perl (quite suddenly) grew from a language that made really
good tools in really little amounts of time into a language that allows
you to make better tools in the same amount of time, or write large
projects with a hundred source files, and 500,000 lines of code. That
really started in 1995 (slightly earlier). So, seen in a certain light,
Perl is only really 5 years old.
Furthermore, some other reasons that I do not think that Perl is ready
for a standard: The core features of perl are still very much focused on
Unix operating systems, and some things in the language (mainly builtin
functions) still express this. It needs to get rid of these things.
Maybe one of the goals of the Perl 6 (is it still called Topaz?) project
could be to provide a language that is truly standardiseable for all
platforms that it is supposed to run on.
Understand me right, though: I do not want another Java, where you can't
_do_ anything with the system. But I also don't think that a standard
for Perl should be unix centered as the language is at this moment. And
I only work on Unices.
> Thanks for a thoughtful discussion,
I'm enjoying it :)
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Interactive Media Division | If at first you don't succeed, try
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | again. Then quit; there's no use
NSW, Australia | being a damn fool about it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:36:24 +1100
From: mgjv@tradingpost.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: selling perl to management
Message-Id: <slrn8qkjlo.3fr.mgjv@martien.heliotrope.home>
On 28 Aug 2000 06:49:00 GMT,
Abigail <abigail@foad.org> wrote:
> Martien Verbruggen (mgjv@tradingpost.com.au) wrote on MMDLIII September
> MCMXCIII in <URL:news:slrn8qhskl.3fr.mgjv@martien.heliotrope.home>:
> ,,
> ,, But I can turn the argument around again. No standard out there
> ,, guarantees anything either. And again I can point to the java language
> ,, as well as the C language standards, and the various Unices. They change
> ,, too when necessary. No standard will stop that. What a standard does is
> ,, formalise what a given application should behave like during the
> ,, lifetime of that standard. It does hardly ever guarantee anything about
> ,, how long that lifetime is.
>
> C and Unix don't change in the same way as Perl does. You can't compare
> that. And standardization does chance things. I've noticed a certain
I happen to think they can be compared. Especially C and Perl can be
compared. They have differences, but also many things in common. The
main difference is that C has standard, and Perl doesn't. However, the
C standard, or rather, the various C standards, have never guaranteed
any backward compatibility. In reality, of course, it is a major
concern, but it is also a mjor concern for a new release of Perl.
> behaviour change between 5.005 and 5.6.0. When I submitted a bugreport
> for that, the only reply I got was "I don't know whether that's a bug or
> a bugfix". With a standard, you could at least determine whether the old,
> or the new behaviour is "correct". Now, a patch could have an unintended
> side effect that changes some behaviour, and without a standard, it's
> not always possible to say that the side effect is a bug or a feature.
I concede that. A standard would give one a reference. But that wasn't
exactly the point at hand. If the standard for Perl would have changed
between 5.005 and 5.6.0[1], and it would have specified the new
behaviour, you would also have no leg to stand on. Or if the standard
leaves things open, or optional (undefined or inspecified in the C
standards), you can also not rely on it. If Perl _had_ a standard, at
least you would _know_ whether or not something was meant to be as it
is, or is a fluke.
But, I do agree that a standard is wanted. I agree that a standard would
be good. I just don't think that a standard would protect you from
changes in an absolute way. (In a parallell post to this one, I also
state that I don't believe Perl is ready for a standard anyway, unless
you want the standard to change a few times over the next few years).
> ,, Yes, obscure things broke. Abigail had one or two things break in her
> ,, one-liners againts 5.6.0. Most things will keep working. Hardly any
> ,, production code that has been written for maintainability breaks.
>
> Really? I had everything that used dbmfiles break. I wouldn't want to
I didn't know about that. I hardly ever use dbm files myself, and hadn't
actually seen anything about this (been away for a while from clpm).
Was this a deliberate change, or a bug?
> claim that use of dbmfiles is rare in production code. I had things
> break in one liners that up till 5.6.0 I would not have hesitated to
> use in production code. (map {$_ .= "a"} "b" broke). A chance that,
> as far as I can tell, had no other justification than making Perl more
> "orthogonal" - quite a non-Perl thing to do.
>
> Every new version of Perl has broken code of me. The fact something that
> break is a one-liner is irrelevant. One persons one-liner is another
> persons production code.
I personally haven't had anything major break on me yet. I apologise for
the statement that might have sounded as a marginalisation of the
breakage of your code. It wasn't intended to mean that.
> But even if a new version of Perl doesn't break anything, there's still
> "damage". Due to Perl having broken things repeatedly in the past with new
> versions, people will have to spend a lot of time performing regression
> tests before installing a new version.
But... I would do the same regression tests with major upgrades of C
compilers. For example, optimisation levels are something that always
should be checked. Java code that runs against a new jvm (other vendor,
version or feature set), gets regression tests. Perl isn't that special
in this case.
Your experience and my experience with the amount of changes in Perl are
obviously different. Maybe I have stayed away from language features
that I can't clearly find documentation for (not entirely, but I think
it's probably mostly true). Maybe I just haven't needed any of the
things that are most likely to break.
> ,, And again, as before in the past, we agree on this. Perl needs better
> ,, and more formal documentation. But that is a point that is beside the
> ,, discussion at hand. perl is in no more or less danger of breaking things
> ,, between versions than other pieces of software are. Even standardised
> ,, pieces of software.
>
> Most "other pieces" of software are stand alone programs. I would not want
> to compare a language with any other piece of software.
API's to libraries, Os's, Compilers, Interpreters of other languages,
shells.
> But I strongly disagree with the opinion that breakage doesn't occur,
> or only occurs in "obscure" code (obscure by whose opinion?) or that it
> doesn't hamper spreading of usuage of Perl. Denial of a problem is the
> wrong way of fixing it.
You're right. Obscure from my point of view, in that I personally
wouldn't use it and haven't used it in production code. Obviously not
obscure from your point of view, since you do use it in production code.
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Interactive Media Division | Never hire a poor lawyer. Never buy
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | from a rich salesperson.
NSW, Australia |
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:00:14 +0200
From: "Dr. Peter Dintelmann" <Peter.Dintelmann@dresdner-bank.com>
Subject: Re: sorting a hash by key value (I've looked at the TIE functions and I'm still confused...)
Message-Id: <8odgo7$jqv1@intranews.bank.dresdner.net>
Hi Eric,
Eric White schrieb in Nachricht <8obb68$et8$1@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
>I'm using CGI.pm and one thing I'm trying to do is use a hash for my values
>and labels in a checkbox_group form. Everything works, but now I'd like to
>have the labels displayed in the value order, not the default order of the
>hash. I'm not sure how to do this.
so you are facing a sorting problem, right?
Have a look at Tom's excellent tutorial
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/doc/FMTEYEWTK/sort.html
Best regards,
Peter Dintelmann
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:48:12 GMT
From: Sergio Brandano <serbr@libero.it>
Subject: spaces at the end of a string
Message-Id: <39AA51CE.5DBE85DD@libero.it>
Hi,
I am looking for the perl equivalent of the SQL
command "trim", that removes all the spaces at
the end of a string.
trim: 'foo ' -> 'foo'
Thanks for help,
Sergio
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:56:09 +0100
From: "Dietmar Staab" <dietmar.staab@t-online.de>
Subject: Re: spaces at the end of a string
Message-Id: <8odgka$fe5$13$1@news.t-online.com>
In article <39AA51CE.5DBE85DD@libero.it>, Sergio Brandano
<serbr@libero.it> wrote:
> I am looking for the perl equivalent of the SQL command "trim", that
> removes all the spaces at the end of a string.
>
> trim: 'foo ' -> 'foo'
s/\s*$//
Example:
text = "foo ";
$text=~s/\s*$//;
print $text."no spaces left";
D.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:08:52 +0530
From: "Debjit" <i_hate_spam@do-not-mail.org>
Subject: Re: spaces at the end of a string
Message-Id: <8oeo03$3bk$1@news.vsnl.net.in>
my $foo = 'foo ' ;
$foo =~s/\s+$//;
>trim: 'foo ' -> 'foo'
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:08:52 +0530
From: "Debjit" <i_hate_spam@do-not-mail.org>
Subject: Re: spaces at the end of a string
Message-Id: <8oerun$4mm$1@news.vsnl.net.in>
my $foo = 'foo ' ;
$foo =~s/\s+$//;
>trim: 'foo ' -> 'foo'
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:41:43 GMT
From: Greg Bacon <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>
Subject: Statistics for comp.lang.perl.misc
Message-Id: <sqkjvnu0t919@corp.supernews.com>
Following is a summary of articles spanning a 7 day period,
beginning at 21 Aug 2000 12:39:23 GMT and ending at
28 Aug 2000 12:01:50 GMT.
Notes
=====
- A line in the body of a post is considered to be original if it
does *not* match the regular expression /^\s{0,3}(?:>|:|\S+>|\+\+)/.
- All text after the last cut line (/^-- $/) in the body is
considered to be the author's signature.
- The scanner prefers the Reply-To: header over the From: header
in determining the "real" email address and name.
- Original Content Rating (OCR) is the ratio of the original content
volume to the total body volume.
- Find the News-Scan distribution on the CPAN!
<URL:http://www.perl.com/CPAN/modules/by-module/News/>
- Please send all comments to Greg Bacon <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>.
- Copyright (c) 2000 Greg Bacon.
Verbatim copying and redistribution is permitted without royalty;
alteration is not permitted. Redistribution and/or use for any
commercial purpose is prohibited.
Excluded Posters
================
perlfaq-suggestions\@(?:.*\.)?perl\.com
Totals
======
Posters: 484
Articles: 1730 (774 with cutlined signatures)
Threads: 422
Volume generated: 3119.7 kb
- headers: 1357.4 kb (27,168 lines)
- bodies: 1657.6 kb (53,758 lines)
- original: 1031.8 kb (36,485 lines)
- signatures: 103.0 kb (2,328 lines)
Original Content Rating: 0.622
Averages
========
Posts per poster: 3.6
median: 1.0 post
mode: 1 post - 269 posters
s: 7.5 posts
Posts per thread: 4.1
median: 3.0 posts
mode: 2 posts - 112 threads
s: 9.3 posts
Message size: 1846.6 bytes
- header: 803.5 bytes (15.7 lines)
- body: 981.1 bytes (31.1 lines)
- original: 610.7 bytes (21.1 lines)
- signature: 61.0 bytes (1.3 lines)
Top 10 Posters by Number of Posts
=================================
(kb) (kb) (kb) (kb)
Posts Volume ( hdr/ body/ orig) Address
----- -------------------------- -------
77 147.8 ( 57.8/ 75.8/ 69.5) abigail@foad.org
56 107.8 ( 36.8/ 64.6/ 35.7) Larry Rosler <lr@hpl.hp.com>
55 140.1 ( 46.8/ 82.5/ 53.9) mgjv@tradingpost.com.au
46 65.2 ( 33.0/ 30.0/ 17.1) Keith Calvert Ivey <kcivey@cpcug.org>
38 79.4 ( 35.0/ 42.9/ 18.4) jason <elephant@squirrelgroup.com>
36 56.0 ( 28.4/ 24.0/ 11.5) Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
30 53.5 ( 22.8/ 30.6/ 18.8) amonotod <amonotod@netscape.net>
28 46.0 ( 26.6/ 15.5/ 7.3) brian d foy <brian@smithrenaud.com>
26 47.4 ( 16.9/ 30.5/ 13.9) Anno Siegel <anno4000@lublin.zrz.tu-berlin.de>
26 40.3 ( 18.5/ 16.1/ 6.4) news@tinita.de
These posters accounted for 24.2% of all articles.
Top 10 Posters by Volume
========================
(kb) (kb) (kb) (kb)
Volume ( hdr/ body/ orig) Posts Address
-------------------------- ----- -------
147.8 ( 57.8/ 75.8/ 69.5) 77 abigail@foad.org
140.1 ( 46.8/ 82.5/ 53.9) 55 mgjv@tradingpost.com.au
107.8 ( 36.8/ 64.6/ 35.7) 56 Larry Rosler <lr@hpl.hp.com>
79.4 ( 35.0/ 42.9/ 18.4) 38 jason <elephant@squirrelgroup.com>
65.2 ( 33.0/ 30.0/ 17.1) 46 Keith Calvert Ivey <kcivey@cpcug.org>
56.0 ( 28.4/ 24.0/ 11.5) 36 Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
54.4 ( 13.8/ 40.5/ 25.3) 22 Albert Dewey <timewarp@shentel.net>
53.5 ( 22.8/ 30.6/ 18.8) 30 amonotod <amonotod@netscape.net>
47.8 ( 16.4/ 28.0/ 22.8) 26 Greg Bacon <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>
47.4 ( 16.9/ 30.5/ 13.9) 26 Anno Siegel <anno4000@lublin.zrz.tu-berlin.de>
These posters accounted for 25.6% of the total volume.
Top 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of five posts)
==============================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Address
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.917 ( 69.5 / 75.8) 77 abigail@foad.org
0.848 ( 4.7 / 5.5) 6 "Matt Kruse" <mkruse@netexpress.net>
0.848 ( 7.1 / 8.4) 12 "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@mail.cern.ch>
0.844 ( 1.7 / 2.0) 6 BUCK NAKED1 <dennis100@webtv.net>
0.834 ( 24.5 / 29.3) 12 Steven Merritt <smerr612@mailandnews.com>
0.826 ( 9.3 / 11.2) 8 Soren Andersen <soren@spmfoiler.removethat.wonderstorm.com>
0.816 ( 4.4 / 5.3) 7 matt@NOSPAMcipherdesign.com
0.813 ( 22.8 / 28.0) 26 Greg Bacon <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>
0.791 ( 4.4 / 5.5) 6 Steve Mading <madings@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu>
0.736 ( 15.7 / 21.3) 14 "Godzilla!" <godzilla@stomp.stomp.tokyo>
Bottom 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of five posts)
=================================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Address
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.401 ( 2.9 / 7.3) 15 Rafael Garcia-Suarez <rgarciasuarez@free.fr>
0.401 ( 6.4 / 16.1) 26 news@tinita.de
0.397 ( 5.9 / 14.9) 6 pape_98@my-deja.com
0.360 ( 4.1 / 11.4) 5 flanagab@hqamc.scott.af.mil
0.347 ( 2.5 / 7.2) 9 Teodor Zlatanov <tzz@iglou.com>
0.341 ( 1.8 / 5.3) 5 "Graham Wood" <graham.wood@iona.com>
0.334 ( 2.8 / 8.3) 10 Tony L. Svanstrom <tony@svanstrom.com>
0.334 ( 2.1 / 6.4) 10 Jim Mauldin <mauldin@netstorm.net>
0.323 ( 1.3 / 4.2) 5 cghawthorne@yahoo.com
0.235 ( 1.4 / 6.0) 6 Ulrich Ackermann <uackermann@orga.com>
78 posters (16%) had at least five posts.
Top 10 Threads by Number of Posts
=================================
Posts Subject
----- -------
61 Just another silly post.
27 selling perl to management
24 stupid question probably
23 help with simple regexp - does my head in
23 regexing html-like tags
22 newbie question - dont flame me
22 how to generate unreadable from readable perl code
22 Perl vs. other scripting languages
20 @_ as array
18 Variable vanishing?
These threads accounted for 15.1% of all articles.
Top 10 Threads by Volume
========================
(kb) (kb) (kb) (kb)
Volume ( hdr/ body/ orig) Posts Subject
-------------------------- ----- -------
119.9 ( 54.8/ 58.9/ 32.7) 61 Just another silly post.
78.7 ( 22.3/ 54.5/ 34.3) 27 selling perl to management
60.8 ( 24.7/ 35.4/ 23.1) 23 regexing html-like tags
46.7 ( 21.2/ 22.3/ 12.4) 23 help with simple regexp - does my head in
43.5 ( 18.2/ 22.9/ 13.7) 22 how to generate unreadable from readable perl code
42.5 ( 17.5/ 24.1/ 10.9) 22 newbie question - dont flame me
41.0 ( 20.1/ 19.3/ 12.5) 24 stupid question probably
40.3 ( 16.4/ 22.5/ 10.9) 18 newbie question about "uninitialized variables"
37.1 ( 17.9/ 17.4/ 11.0) 22 Perl vs. other scripting languages
36.1 ( 10.2/ 25.3/ 10.5) 12 Sorting by a subfield (WAS: Re: This is my last question, I swear!!!!!!!!!!)
These threads accounted for 17.5% of the total volume.
Top 10 Threads by OCR (minimum of five posts)
==============================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Subject
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.837 ( 9.2/ 11.0) 9 Best General HTTP Proxy?
0.820 ( 5.0/ 6.1) 6 How to sort time?
0.814 ( 6.9/ 8.4) 6 Searching an Array of Hashes
0.793 ( 3.9/ 4.9) 5 negative lookahead assertions in Perl Regex
0.769 ( 5.2/ 6.8) 6 Lotsa difiiculties - need help with my Perl !!
0.758 ( 5.4/ 7.1) 11 Parsing a variable
0.754 ( 5.8/ 7.7) 12 lwp post method
0.748 ( 11.2/ 15.0) 7 Modifying @INC: my problem and solution (any comment?)
0.747 ( 8.6/ 11.5) 7 File handling and manipulation from function, help please?
0.742 ( 13.7/ 18.5) 17 Kill Me!
Bottom 10 Threads by OCR (minimum of five posts)
=================================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Subject
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.446 ( 1.3 / 2.9) 6 How do I insert a carriage return?
0.433 ( 7.5 / 17.2) 10 Counting across multiple lines?
0.414 ( 10.5 / 25.3) 12 Sorting by a subfield (WAS: Re: This is my last question, I swear!!!!!!!!!!)
0.409 ( 3.7 / 9.1) 6 TextAreas and Security
0.408 ( 1.9 / 4.8) 5 RegEx problem
0.396 ( 3.5 / 8.9) 8 system() output screwing up redirection.
0.394 ( 1.4 / 3.6) 6 Template In/File Out
0.392 ( 1.4 / 3.6) 5 Development Tools
0.362 ( 8.3 / 23.0) 13 newline and carriage return problems
0.326 ( 1.5 / 4.6) 5 Procmail vs Perl.
116 threads (27%) had at least five posts.
Top 10 Targets for Crossposts
=============================
Articles Newsgroup
-------- ---------
34 alt.perl
33 comp.lang.perl.modules
18 comp.lang.perl
7 alt.ascii-art.animation
6 comp.mail.misc
5 rec.crafts.textiles.machine-knit
3 comp.lang.awk
2 comp.lang.perl.moderated
2 comp.mail.sendmail
1 de.comp.lang.perl.misc
Top 10 Crossposters
===================
Articles Address
-------- -------
7 hasant@trabas.com
4 abigail@foad.org
4 Malcolm Dew-Jones <yf110@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca>
4 "Konstantin Stupnik" <skv@iis.nsk.su>
4 "Christopher Thorjussen" <kernel@start.no>
4 brian d foy <brian@smithrenaud.com>
4 Eric Bohlman <ebohlman@netcom.com>
4 flanagab@hqamc.scott.af.mil
4 mgjv@tradingpost.com.au
3 Albert Dewey <timewarp@shentel.net>
------------------------------
Date: 28 Aug 2000 12:34:59 +0100
From: Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
Subject: Re: trying to pull each string from file to evaluate...
Message-Id: <8odip3$dsv$1@orpheus.gellyfish.com>
[ rewrapped the long lines ]
On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:37:19 -0400 Keith Gasper wrote:
> TEC <travis.cox@itron.com> wrote
>> I'm not real clear on if you just want to keep evaluating the last
>> line of a file (as it gets written to) or if you want to remove the
>> last line and evaluate it....
>
> Well, I'm not trying to just read the last line of the file. I would
> like to read the last line, remove it, then read the last line... (this
> should read the formerly-known-as second to last line since the former
> last line is now gone) This way, I keep reading from the bottom up until
> I find what I'm looking for. I think I can play with your code and get
> something to work, though. How would you delete a line? Or better yet,
> is there a way to move up just one line? Thanks for your help! Keith
I think you might be looking for the module File::ReadBackwards available
from CPAN ...
/J\
--
yapc::Europe in assocation with the Institute Of Contemporary Arts
<http://www.yapc.org/Europe/> <http://www.ica.org.uk>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:17:39 GMT
From: tim@degree.ath.cx (Tim Hammerquist)
Subject: Re: would you recommend buying a book
Message-Id: <slrn8qkj8a.ig.tim@degree.ath.cx>
Daniel Chetlin <daniel@chetlin.com> wrote:
> >The fact is, O'Reilly is an excellent publisher with excellent books.
> >The fact that it's trendy (Cargo cult, in your language) may just be (in
> >this case) an indicator of it's effectiveness.
>
> Hmm. You snipped several paragraphs of Abigail's explaining the specific books
> she _does_ like of O'Reilly's. Clearly she's not making the blanket statement
> that O'Reilly books are valueless. She's simply objecting to your blanket
> statement that all O'Reilly Perl books are good.
I know she's not attacking O'Reilly books at large, and with my addendum
I was hoping to get across the idea that I'm not entirely comfortable
with my blanket endorsement of them.
I agree that Perl in a Nutshell was not really worth the cash, although it's
summary of the modules was helpful when I didn't have access to perldocs
for a while.
While I'm fully aware of Uri's feelings on Advanced Perl Prog., I
appreciate that it tackles subjects that some other "babysitting" books
gloss over. It's not a book that says "Hey, this is a really good idea
to do on a regular basis for many scripts that will be run on many
different platforms, perl versions, and builds," but it does say, "You
can do this, and it could be a useful way, but we leave it to the reader
to determine practicality." I respect that.
Also, my apologies to Abigail for my comment; it was inappropriate.
--
-Tim Hammerquist <timmy@cpan.org>
Democracy encourages the majority to decide
things about which the majority is ignorant.
-- John Simon
------------------------------
Date: 28 Aug 2000 12:24:04 +0100
From: Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
Subject: Re: Wrong @INC in Apache
Message-Id: <8odi4k$drf$1@orpheus.gellyfish.com>
On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:07:54 -0700 Gabe wrote:
> "Marcel Grunauer" <marcel@codewerk.com> wrote in message
> news:slrn8qcjl9.27o.marcel@gandalf.local...
>> Recompile mod_perl when having perl 5.6 in your $PATH. Recompiling
>> mod_perl is pretty painless, see perl.apache.org, especially the
>> mod_perl guide.
>
> I recompiled mod_perl using CPAN.pm, but it prompted me for my Apache source
> files. RH 6.2 installed and configured Apache for me, and I don't believe
> the source files were copied to my system. So, I downloaded 1.3.12 and
> unzipped and untared it, and then pointed the CPAN mod_perl installation to
> that source directory. Everything then proceeded and Apache was installed
> and loaded fine (although I somehow doubt that mod_perl was loaded, how can
> I check?). I could get to the Apache page indicating everything was
> configured properly. However, upon reboot I got the same error with the @INC
> from the previous Perl distribution that was installed. So, I imagine
> something in the bootup procedure is loading the Apache RH installed and not
> the one I had just downloaded and installed. I'm new to Linux so I don't
> know how to point the bootup script to the right Apache. So, what's the
> linux equivalent to autoexec.bat?
>
You should remove the Apache and Perl packages that Red Hat installed using
RPM and then recompile everything from scratch (Apache, Perl and mod_perl)
you will almost certainly get a different configuration than the one
Red Hat made so you will need to alter the configuration files - you will
probably want to ask in comp.infosystems.www.servers.unix about this though.
/J\
--
yapc::Europe in assocation with the Institute Of Contemporary Arts
<http://www.yapc.org/Europe/> <http://www.ica.org.uk>
------------------------------
Date: 16 Sep 99 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 16 Sep 99)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
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To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
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To request back copies (available for a week or so), send your request
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V9 Issue 4151
**************************************
