[13834] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1244 Volume: 9
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Nov 1 15:05:46 1999
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:05:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Message-Id: <941486720-v9-i1244@ruby.oce.orst.edu>
Content-Type: text
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 1 Nov 1999 Volume: 9 Number: 1244
Today's topics:
Re: -w <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Re: Basic Question <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Re: Basic Question <stampes@xilinx.com>
Book suggestions <joel_berger@manulife.com>
Browsing, and Capturing.. <samay1NOsaSPAM@hotmail.com.invalid>
Re: Can this be made faster? <aqumsieh@matrox.com>
Re: Can this be made faster? <22pb22@excite.com>
Re: cgi on netscape <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Re: close() is expensive <sakalauk@ssc.usm.edu>
Re: DB advice <jeff@vpservices.com>
Re: Deleting line in a file. (Michael Budash)
Re: Deleting line in a file. <aqumsieh@matrox.com>
Re: Do you now an affordable Perl editor for Windows NT <AgitatorsBand@yahoo.com>
Re: FAQ 2.14: What mailing lists are there for perl? (John Stanley)
Re: FAQ 8.8: How do I get the screen size? (John Stanley)
Re: GuestBook thing in CGI <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Re: HELP: Perl 5.005_03 wont build on Win32 w/ Cygwin 2 <jfrisby@NOSPAM.megapathdsl.net>
Re: It is always like this here? <bivey@teamdev.com>
Re: It is always like this here? <jon@midnightbeach.com>
Re: It is always like this here? <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Re: It is always like this here? <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Re: It is always like this here? <AgitatorsBand@yahoo.com>
Re: It is always like this here? <upsetter@shore.net>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 16 Sep 99) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:51:31 -0800
From: David Cassell <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
To: japhy@pobox.com
Subject: Re: -w
Message-Id: <381DEF43.2C07FD11@mail.cor.epa.gov>
[emailed also]
Jeff Pinyan wrote:
[snip]
> On a totally unrelated note, November 9th shall be my undoing. For I
> shall be 18 years of age. Look out.
Mazel tov. We eagerly await your posts after Nov 9. Probably
lots of drunken posts after midnight, and then lots of really
surly hangover-laden posts on the subsequent mornings. Should
liven things up considerably. :-)
David
--
David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior computing specialist
mathematical statistician
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:45:24 -0800
From: David Cassell <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: Basic Question
Message-Id: <381DEDD4.9462E76A@mail.cor.epa.gov>
fbrito@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I have already read the perlfunc but could not find this:
> I need to discover a way to do the 'whoami' Unix command in Perl.
> Where can I find the argument ( file or variable ) of getpwuid()
> function to get this ?
Hmmm. The info on getpwuid() is right there in perlfunc.
You could also get it just by typing:
perldoc -f getpwuid
So I guess I don't understand what you're asking. Was there
a part of the documentation which you didn't understand?
Could you post some code to show your problem?
David
--
David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior computing specialist
mathematical statistician
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 1999 18:43:35 GMT
From: Jeff Stampes <stampes@xilinx.com>
Subject: Re: Basic Question
Message-Id: <7vkn0o$k31@courier.xilinx.com>
fbrito@my-deja.com wrote:
: I have already read the perlfunc but could not find this:
: I need to discover a way to do the 'whoami' Unix command in Perl.
: Where can I find the argument ( file or variable ) of getpwuid()
: function to get this ?
: Thanks,
from perldoc perlvar:
$> The effective uid of this process. Example:
$< = $>; # set real to effective uid
($<,$>) = ($>,$<); # swap real and effective uid
(Mnemonic: it's the uid you went TO, if you're
running setuid.) Note: "$<" and "$>" can be swapped
only on machines supporting setreuid().
stampes@huckin [36] perl -e 'print scalar getpwuid($>)'
stampes
--
Jeff Stampes -- Xilinx, Inc. -- Boulder, CO -- jeff.stampes@xilinx.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:54:54 GMT
From: "Joel Berger" <joel_berger@manulife.com>
Subject: Book suggestions
Message-Id: <2mlT3.386$Ao3.125@198.235.216.4>
Suggestions for a good book for a newbie?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:21:06 -0800
From: Samay <samay1NOsaSPAM@hotmail.com.invalid>
Subject: Browsing, and Capturing..
Message-Id: <0a0133f8.a181b00f@usw-ex0101-006.remarq.com>
Hi, I am writing a simple application which should take current address
from the address bar..of the browser.. while in the process of
browsing..
use Win32::OLE
my $ie = Win32::OLE->new('InternetExplorer.Application');
$ie->{Visible} = 1;
Win32::OLE->WithEvents($ie, \&Event, 'DWebBrowserEvents2');
etc..
Any good pointers will be useful to get browser as object..
Thanks
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:08:29 -0500
From: Ala Qumsieh <aqumsieh@matrox.com>
Subject: Re: Can this be made faster?
Message-Id: <x3yg0yqt78j.fsf@tigre.matrox.com>
kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) writes:
> In article <381CD0D5.7B879432@sympatico.ca>,
> Ala Qumsieh <qumsieh@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >PB wrote:
> >> foreach $line (@line){
> >> if ($line =~ /\s$string\s/oi) {$count++;}
> >> }
> >
> >Your main problem is that you read the every file completely into
> >memory (the array @line), and then you iterate through the elements
> >of @line. This makes two iterations; one of which is unnecessary.
> >
> >I believe the following should be faster, but I didn't benchmark:
> >
> >my $count = 0;
> >for my $file (@files) {
> > open F, $file or die $!;
> > while (<F>) {
> > $count += () = /(\s$string\s)/goi;
> > }
> > close F or die $!;
> >}
>
> FWIW, your program will give different results than his -- if
> \s$string\s happens more than once per line -- and it may actually be
> slower because of the ().
I hadn't paid close attention. For some reason I thought his line:
if ($line =~ /\s$string\s/oi) {$count++;}
was really
while ($line =~ /\s$string\s/goi) {$count++}
which *might* be faster than my:
$count += () = /\s$string\s/goi;
(I also noticed that the brackets aren't needed inside the regexp, and
they probably slow things down).
> One solution to making it faster might be this:
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl -w
> use strict; my $string = 'you'; my @files = @ARGV;
> my $count = 0;
> for my $file (@files) {
> open F, "<$file" or die "Opening $file: $!\n";
> $_ = do {local $/; <F>};
I really doubt this would make things faster. Reading the whole file
into memory can have undesirable effects. It all depends on the
application, and I should benchmark if I want to backup any claims I
am making :-)
(Maybe later today)
> $count += () = /^.*\s$string\s.*$/goim;
Why do you bother with all of that? Why not simply:
$count++ if /\s$string\s/goi;
since you are trying to match only once per line.
> }
> print "count: $count\n";
>
> The first couple of lines and the last line are just there to help me
> test it. This will read in the whole file, just as before, but will
> pattern-match on the whole file all at once instead of on each line.
> The pattern will match a whole line, so you'll only get one match per
> line, just as in your original script (but unlike Ala's.) If that's
> not what you want, of course you can take the ^.* and .*$ out.
or change the if() to a while() ;-)
--Ala
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:12:41 -0800
From: "PB" <22pb22@excite.com>
Subject: Re: Can this be made faster?
Message-Id: <7vkomr$iau$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Interesting ....
I put a
$start = (times)[0];
and a
$end = (times)[0];
$total_time = $end - $start;
before and after the while{...} in order to record the execution in CPU
seconds for all the different approaches mentioned in this threat, on about
100MB of text files, and these are the results:
INITIAL WAY (PB):
my $count = 0;
while (@line = <FILE>) {
foreach $line (@line){
if ($line =~ /\s$string\s/oi) {$count++;}
}
$count: 5423 (hits on $string)
Execution time: 0.782 seconds
Ala Qumsieh <qumsieh@sympatico.ca> proposal:
my $count = 0;
for my $file (@files) {
open F, $file or die $!;
while (<F>) {
$count += () = /(\s$string\s)/goi;
}
close F or die $!;
}
$count: 8
Execution time: 0.016 seconds
Kragen Sitaker <kragen@dnaco.net> proposal:
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
use strict; my $string = 'you'; my @files = @ARGV;
my $count = 0;
for my $file (@files) {
open F, "<$file" or die "Opening $file: $!\n";
$_ = do {local $/; <F>};
$count += () = /^.*\s$string\s.*$/goim;
}
print "count: $count\n";
$count: 5423
Execution time: 2.172 seconds
==============
Kragen's and my approach returned the same number of "hits", even though the
originally proposed approach took considerably less time than Kragen's
paragraph mode approach. Ala's way didn't even return the real number of
hits.
I'm not sure if I did this correctly or not since my 'perlish' ways leaves
some to be desired. If you would like to test this yourselves you can get
the full script from http://www.perl-ntadmins.com. It's called LOGSTAT.PL
Thanks for your input and if you have any suggestions or comments I would
love to hear them.
cheers,
pb
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:38:41 -0800
From: David Cassell <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: cgi on netscape
Message-Id: <381DEC41.5243FA67@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Kashyap, Shalini [SKY:BA12:EXCH] wrote:
>
> Hi, I have developed a webpage using perl that creates a
> form with table rows. The problem is each row has about 6 select boxes
> and when there are more than 7 rows in the table, my netscape
> window freezes.
>
> Does anyone know why this may happen? It seems my hard disk
> cache is fine, and adjusting the memory cache doesn't make oh so
> much difference. When I lower the resolution of my monitor it works.
>
> Does anyone know how I can fix this problem from within the program?
> The program itself is only about 500 lines.
First, this is not a Perl problem. Yes, I know your CGI
uses Perl. But the problem is either your HTML or else
one of the many annoying bugs in Nyetscape. You'll probably
get the most help if you ask this question in the group
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi or
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
And tell them how you're setting up the rows in your table.
That may be the problem.
David
--
David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior computing specialist
mathematical statistician
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:18:21 -0600
From: Peter Sakalaukus <sakalauk@ssc.usm.edu>
Subject: Re: close() is expensive
Message-Id: <381DCB5D.859A28F7@ssc.usm.edu>
Ok. I recieved an answer which I tested and was correct. Thanks Uri.
The parser was not recieving input unless the close() was executed
before the system call. The close() flushed the buffer thus giving the
parser something to read.
I was unable to look at the parser database previously, thus was unable
to test if it actually recieved data.
Again, thanks.
...Pete
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 1999 18:49:25 GMT
From: Jeff Zucker <jeff@vpservices.com>
Subject: Re: DB advice
Message-Id: <381DE079.C4192219@vpservices.com>
whos_john_galt@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I use several scripts to manage a fair sized database. Currently I use
> text files with comma separated values. I haven't any problems with the
> text files, but the database may soon be growing exponentially and I am
> thinking it may be wise to grow up use real database files.
>
> I am a virgin when it comes to modules...but am gaining confidence with
> the recent article on DBI at www.perl.com.
>
> I would greatly appreciate any advice one could offer on my
> introduction to databases.
It sounds like you are already on the right track. DBI is the way to go
when it comes to Perl and databases. You should get the driver for
comma separated values files (DBD::CSV) and try it out on your existing
databases. That will give you a feel for how DBI is used. Later you
can investigate more robust database back ends like postgres,mysql,msql
(free) or oracle, sybase, etc. (not free). Once you have the other
database back end set up, you can use DBD::CSV to populate the new back
end with your current data. The scripts you create for DBD::CSV will be
useable pretty much as-is on the new databases and you'll also be able
to use other features missing from DBD::CSV (like multi-table SELECT
statements).
--
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:55:35 -0800
From: mbudash@wcws.com (Michael Budash)
Subject: Re: Deleting line in a file.
Message-Id: <mbudash-0111990955350001@adsl-216-103-91-123.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net>
In article <941457909.11512.0.pluto.c30bf8a6@news.demon.nl>, Steven
<steven@*REMOVE*filipowicz.com> wrote:
> Hi All!
>
> I have a file that contains some line's like this :
>
> ----------------- Mailalias file ---------------------
> steven@filipowicz.com steven@domain.com
> steven3@filipowicz.com steven3@domain.com
> steven4@filipowicz.com steven4@domain.com
> steven6@filipowicz.com steven6@domain.com
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now I want to delete, let's say the line : steven4@filipowicz.com
> steven4@domain.com
>
> Here is a part of the code, I've got it so far that the program can find
> the line
> that I want to delete. But how do I go futher, so that the line is
> delete and
> the file is rewriten.??
>
[code snipped]
>
> Any help is welcome!
>
> Thanks!
>
> O, How would Use flock on the file?
there's more than one way to do this... for one way (2?), see the faq titled ""
here's another way, based loosely on one of Randal Schwartz's
WebTechniques columns (http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/WebTechniques/):
# establish filename to help eliminate typos in die message
$file = '';
# open the file, plz
open (F, "+>>$file") || die ("Can't open $file: $!");
# it's ours!
flock (F, 2);
# rewind...
seek (F, 0, 0);
# ...slurp it in...
@f = <F>;
# ...rewind again...
seek (F, 0, 0);
# ...clear the file...
truncate (F, 0);
# ...and rewrite it one line at a time
foreach (@f) {
# do whatever processing necessary; you may or may not write the line
# back to the file ...
}
# we're outa here! (note that perl's close also unlocks the file,
# as does the ending of the program, so an explicit flock is n/n
close (F);
--
Michael Budash ~~~~~~~~~~ mbudash@wcws.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:51:56 -0500
From: Ala Qumsieh <aqumsieh@matrox.com>
Subject: Re: Deleting line in a file.
Message-Id: <x3yemeat583.fsf@tigre.matrox.com>
Steven <steven@*REMOVE*filipowicz.com> writes:
[snip]
> Here is a part of the code, I've got it so far that the program can find
> the line
> that I want to delete. But how do I go futher, so that the line is
> delete and
> the file is rewriten.??
[more snip]
Perhaps the FAQs would help you. Perlfaq5:
How do I change one line in a file/delete a line in a
file/insert a line in the middle of a file/append to the
beginning of a file?
HTH,
--Ala
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:11:34 GMT
From: Scratchie <AgitatorsBand@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Do you now an affordable Perl editor for Windows NT
Message-Id: <aRjT3.361$Yr1.76580@news.shore.net>
TextPad does the trick for me. I find the "clip library" and macro
functions especially useful.
--Art
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Ska & Reggae Calendar
http://www.agitators.com/calendar/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 1999 17:25:51 GMT
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: FAQ 2.14: What mailing lists are there for perl?
Message-Id: <7vkiev$dbo$1@news.NERO.NET>
In article <x7puxubt7g.fsf@home.sysarch.com>,
Uri Guttman <uri@sysarch.com> wrote:
>
>mail that fix to the perlfaq address. tom and gnat don't frequent this
>group much these days.
I remember when people got flamed for posting to a group that
they don't read. "Please respond by email, I don't read this group" was
not the sign of a seasoned USENET veteran, it was the sure sign of a
newbie.
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 1999 17:23:11 GMT
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: FAQ 8.8: How do I get the screen size?
Message-Id: <7vki9v$dba$1@news.NERO.NET>
In article <2auS3.8734$23.494891@typ11.nn.bcandid.com>,
Kragen Sitaker <kragen@dnaco.net> wrote:
>You haven't begun to see the extent of ancient-stuff terminology in
>Unix. Have you ever gotten a "Not a typewriter" error?
Yes, Kragen, I have begun to see the extent of "anciant-stuff" in
Unix. I began to see it a long time ago. Not every person who posts
here is new to computers.
>(iow, a window is called a screen. this is the least of your worries.)
If you wish to redefine the terms, please make sure you say so at the
beginning. For most of the world, the screen is a physical entity, a
window a logical one. That includes modern windowing systems. Notice
that nobody every says "modern screening systems".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:48:52 -0800
From: David Cassell <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: GuestBook thing in CGI
Message-Id: <381DEEA4.7AB5104A@mail.cor.epa.gov>
FS wrote:
>
> I need CGI help. I want to make a page, have it refreshed each 10 minutes.
> That's easy.
Great. Then I won't need to point you toward that fount of CGI
info, comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi .
> But i also need a form, where the user types in something in
> some boxes. Almost a guestbook really. Then i need the refreshing page to
> show the stuff in the form, only 15 of them at the same time. U get it? This
Maybe you want the form-handling capabilities of the CGI.pm
module. It comes with lots of docs and examples, too.
> would probably be a bad example, but it was frome here i got the idea:
> http://www.worldremote.net/ftc/liveftp.html
> it is a warez ftp site, with a risk of porn-banners. don't go there without
> needing to.
Oh. And how do *you* know about it? And don't you think they
will be ticked at you when they get shut down because you posted
their URL to a bunch of sysadmins?
> This is kinda urgent, so I would really appreciate it if you can answer
> soon!
I hate to break it to you, but this is a lousy place to go if you need
instant feedback. Usenet can take days to get you to a good answer.
David
--
David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior computing specialist
mathematical statistician
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:43:22 -0800
From: "Jon Frisby" <jfrisby@NOSPAM.megapathdsl.net>
Subject: Re: HELP: Perl 5.005_03 wont build on Win32 w/ Cygwin 20.1!
Message-Id: <s1rla5bcqof60@corp.supernews.com>
> I believe in a recent issue of the Perl Journal there was an
> article on building perl with the cygwin tools - you may want to
I'll check it out...
> check that. However, at least in the mod_perl README files,
> it's recommended to use VC++ 5 (or greater) for building
> mod_perl - I know that works (with a VC++ native perl build),
> but I'm not sure if anyone has managed to use another
> Win32 compiler for mod_perl.
:(
I don't have VC++... And the money it would cost to get it could go to a
cheap Linux box instead... A far better idea as all the problems I'm having
would go away, things would "just work", and I wouldn't have to use my
desktop PC as a web server... (blech!)
-JF
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 1999 17:12:18 GMT
From: "William" <bivey@teamdev.com>
Subject: Re: It is always like this here?
Message-Id: <01bf248c$7a4ab140$3527e1ce@bill.jump.net>
Tad McClellan <tadmc@metronet.com> wrote in article
<e4iev7.8f2.ln@magna.metronet.com>...
> There is confusion about it because nobody qualifies what they
> mean when they say "newbie".
[...]
Yes, I should have been more explicit when I used the term
"newbie" a while back. "Clueless" seemed a bit too strong,
and I lazily reached for a common term.
After all, I'm a Perl newbie, myself (first experience was
last June), but not a usenet newbie, and certainly not a
programming newbie (punched my first 80-col card in '73 -
ah, those where the days!).-Wm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 10:50:50 -0800
From: Jon Shemitz <jon@midnightbeach.com>
Subject: Re: It is always like this here?
Message-Id: <381DE10A.292FD25C@midnightbeach.com>
Martien Verbruggen wrote:
> > To be quite honest, and I know you'll probably disagree with this,
> > enough regulars here *enjoy* the situation as it stands so much
> > that it will never change.
>
> And this is what I disagree with most. The fact that the most
> knowledgeable of people keep dropping off this newsgroup should show you
> that they are not happy at all with the situation. The fact that these
> discussions keep appearing should show you that as well. Nobody is happy
> with the situation as it is. And nobody knows how to fix it, if it's
> fixable at all.
Perhaps this suggestion comes up a lot, too: Split the group.
It's not just cluelessness that makes CGI people post here: it can be
genuinely hard for a novice to know whether their particular problem is
with the environment their script is running under or with their
understanding of the language. Maybe there should be a
comp.lang.perl.cgi.
Some people seem bitterly disappointed that they're not having a c.l.p
experience like the Good Old Days when Larry Wall posted. They want some
sort of Of The Wizards, By The Wizards club, where everyone else is much
better than *them*, but accepts them as one of The Gang, anyhow. They
feel deeply annoyed that so many of the questions are so ... trivial.
(This strikes me as a cluelessness of an even deeper sort than that of
the "Usenet newbies" so often deprecated here: Usenet has grown, hugely.
Those of us who (like me) have been using it for six or seven years
vastly outnumber those who have been using it for ten or twenty, and are
in turn even more vastly outnumbered by those who have been using it for
months or weeks. You just have to live with that, and evolve new
mechanisms to deal with it, not keep on insisting on what worked five or
fifteen years ago.)
Perl has become enormously popular. Seems to me that all you Old Perl
Hackers should be very pleased: "See, I was right all along" and all
that. But, with that popularity, has come a change in the demographic. I
was willing - pleased, even - to study the camel book and figure out
what the examples meant. But many people aren't. I don't think they're
all wrong; I think that by and large they're just different. (Please
note that I'm not claiming sainthood, here: While I try to be tolerant,
some people's cluelessness and/or laziness really pisses me off.) Seems
to me that the Perl nation should be more accepting of these immigrants.
Maybe what is needed is a comp.lang.perl.arcana, or c.l.p.details, or
even c.l.p.way-geeky. People always cite the Unix wizards group as an
example of why this won't work. But if you name it in a way that will
really only appeal to those who belong there - and you find a moderator
- this shouldn't be a problem. A moderator, I think, is key. I think
that if the moderator filters out little more than the sort of questions
that get answered here as "FAQ" or "RTFM", the arcana group will be a
very pleasant place to be, and it will leave misc as a pleasant place,
too. Who would have time to moderate the new group? Why, I would think
that anyone who has the time to respond "FAQ" to FAQ's has more than
enough time to say Yeah or Nay to each thread.
--
http://www.midnightbeach.com - Me, my work, my writing, and
http://www.midnightbeach.com/hs - my homeschool resource pages
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:12:48 -0800
From: David Cassell <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: It is always like this here?
Message-Id: <381DE630.CC8E712A@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Jon Shemitz wrote:
> David Cassell wrote:
[snip]
> > In TomC's words, "patches are welcome".
>
> Well, my post was an implicit offer to bell the cat, but (a) I don't
> know how to submit any changes for inclusion in the official
> distribution and (b) I figured I'd put the notion out for discussion,
> first.
It gets beaten up around here like any other dead horse.
If you can see a better way of dividing up the sections,
email your suggestion(s) to:
perlfaq-suggestions@perl.com
BTW, that address is in the FAQ too.
> > I think that there needs to be either:
> > [1] more features to perldoc [TomC will clobber me for this];
>
> This might be as good a place as any to ask: Why does perldoc behave so
> badly under Win32? [....]
[snip]
Because win95/98 has such broken pipes. As I understand
the problem, ActiveState has put a fixed perldoc up on their
site and it should work with the latest stable build of Perl.
I read this in the Win32-Perl-Users mailing list a few weeks
ago, so my memory may be rusty.
> > [2] more keywords to search on for each question with -q ; or
>
> Yes, that would be great. I've done several searches that don't turn up
> the info I later find looking through the questions. And I think looking
> through a long list of questions is a lousy way of finding info.
Agreed. Maybe you would be willing to build a FAQ index and
matching indexing tool? [Should I put a smiley here?]
David
--
David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior computing specialist
mathematical statistician
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:27:53 -0800
From: David Cassell <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: It is always like this here?
Message-Id: <381DE9B9.217BF38D@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Jon Shemitz wrote:
[snip]
> Perhaps this suggestion comes up a lot, too: Split the group.
This suggestion does come up a lot. Perhaps monthly. And
the group *has* been split. And analysis has concluded
that it just doesn't help when too many people don't know
what the Usenet rules are, and/or don't follow them.
> It's not just cluelessness that makes CGI people post here: it can be
> genuinely hard for a novice to know whether their particular problem is
> with the environment their script is running under or with their
> understanding of the language. Maybe there should be a
> comp.lang.perl.cgi.
But when they don't know whether their problem is HTTP, HTML,
CGI, webserver config, Perl, or Javascript, they do *not* go
to the right group.
> Some people seem bitterly disappointed that they're not having a c.l.p
> experience like the Good Old Days when Larry Wall posted. They want some
> sort of Of The Wizards, By The Wizards club, where everyone else is much
> better than *them*, but accepts them as one of The Gang, anyhow. They
> feel deeply annoyed that so many of the questions are so ... trivial.
I'll disagree on this. Many of the current responders just
are grumpy when they have to answer the same question for the
umpteenth time.. and the question should never have been asked
here in the first place.
[snip]
> months or weeks. You just have to live with that, and evolve new
> mechanisms to deal with it, not keep on insisting on what worked five or
> fifteen years ago.)
What would you suggest? The way that many groups with this
problem have gone is to totally fall apart so that the group
is no longer useful for its original purpose [e.g., go see
comp.unix.wizards ]. This group has taken a position that
Perl programming problems are legit, even when the problem
is CGI programming.. but that asking for pre-written code
or asking a non-Perl question is not legit. Different posters
interpret that in different ways.
> Perl has become enormously popular. Seems to me that all you Old Perl
> Hackers should be very pleased: "See, I was right all along" and all
> that. But, with that popularity, has come a change in the demographic. I
> was willing - pleased, even - to study the camel book and figure out
> what the examples meant. But many people aren't. I don't think they're
> all wrong; I think that by and large they're just different. (Please
Well, I think that in many cases, people just do not have the
resources. They write some code for their website on an ISP's
server and never learn what a private copy of Perl has to offer.
Or they download from ActiveState and do not know that they
now have a copy of the docs and the FAQ. These people can
best be helped by telling them where to find the documentation
they want. While saying "RTFM" doesn't help these posters,
explaining about the FAQ and perldoc *should* help.
If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; if you
teach him how to fish, you can get invited over in a month
for a smoked salmon buffet. - me
> note that I'm not claiming sainthood, here: While I try to be tolerant,
> some people's cluelessness and/or laziness really pisses me off.) Seems
> to me that the Perl nation should be more accepting of these immigrants.
Some of try harder than others.
> Maybe what is needed is a comp.lang.perl.arcana, or c.l.p.details, or
> even c.l.p.way-geeky. People always cite the Unix wizards group as an
> example of why this won't work. But if you name it in a way that will
> really only appeal to those who belong there - and you find a moderator
> - this shouldn't be a problem. A moderator, I think, is key. I think
> that if the moderator filters out little more than the sort of questions
> that get answered here as "FAQ" or "RTFM", the arcana group will be a
> very pleasant place to be, and it will leave misc as a pleasant place,
> too. Who would have time to moderate the new group? Why, I would think
> that anyone who has the time to respond "FAQ" to FAQ's has more than
> enough time to say Yeah or Nay to each thread.
Well, there's a bit of a difference between using a scoring
newsreader and looking at 20 posts a day, vs. being moderator
here and having to handle *two*hundred* posts a day. And the
moderator for c.i.w.a.g. seems to be broken a lot over the
past eight months [or maybe it's my newsfeed].
There already is a comp.lang.perl.moderated, which serves
a number of these purposes. It is a low-traffic, high S/N
newsgroup.
David
--
David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior computing specialist
mathematical statistician
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:00:04 GMT
From: Scratchie <AgitatorsBand@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: It is always like this here?
Message-Id: <8jmT3.377$Yr1.80207@news.shore.net>
Abigail <abigail@delanet.com> wrote:
: The fact people keep asking
: off-topic CGI posting in this group isn't a reason to allow them; it's
: a reason to kick them even harder.
I sincerely hope that you do not own a pet.
--Art
--
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:02:39 GMT
From: Art Cohen <upsetter@shore.net>
Subject: Re: It is always like this here?
Message-Id: <zlmT3.378$Yr1.80207@news.shore.net>
Abigail <abigail@delanet.com> wrote:
: We know that, and if you think "flamers" think it will keep that off-topic
: poster away, you're wrong. But it will keep *others* away.
Utter nonsense. The off-topic posters don't bother to read the newsgroup
before posting, so what on earth makes you think they'll see all your
witty flames?
--Art
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------------------------------
Date: 16 Sep 99 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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