[12955] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 365 Volume: 9
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Aug 4 13:07:20 1999
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:05:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 4 Aug 1999 Volume: 9 Number: 365
Today's topics:
Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm (llornkcor@earthlink.net)
Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm (Larry Rosler)
Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm (Jon Bell)
Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm (Malcolm Ray)
CGI and LOBs <georgy@gtek.co.il>
Re: checking for a filename in a directory (Jon Bell)
Re: help running Perl Scripts in win95 <rhrh@hotmail.com>
Re: Help with form input to ouput in another frame? <chris@inta.net.uk>
Re: How can I know what modules are installed on server (Malcolm Ray)
How can I use ODBC and LOBs with Perl? <georgy@gtek.co.il>
Re: Newbie Q: How to check if invoked as CGI program (Bart Lateur)
Newbie question on Expect <dannn@somewhere.in.time>
Re: password protected site (Fulko van Westrenen)
Re: Question for Perl gurus <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: Repetition in RE substitutions <Allan@due.net>
Re: Repetition in RE substitutions <uri@sysarch.com>
Re: revert gmtime() (Larry Rosler)
socket.ph <stevenej@uwec.edu>
Re: Strange STDOUT on script, any ideas? <tom.kralidis@ccrs.nrcanDOTgc.ca>
Re: truncating decimals <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
which module? <ngupta@netscape.net>
Re: which module? (Malcolm Ray)
Re: Why is it.... <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: Why is it.... (Bart Lateur)
Re: working with = sign in a directory name - please he <sariq@texas.net>
Re: working with = sign in a directory name - please he (Anno Siegel)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 1 Jul 99) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 04 Aug 1999 09:59:39 -0600
From: llornkcor@earthlink.net (llornkcor@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm
Message-Id: <wk3dxzwn84.fsf@earthlink.net>
M.Ray@ulcc.ac.uk (Malcolm Ray) writes:
>Quoting from perlfaq:
>
> How to contribute to this document
>
> You may mail corrections, additions, and suggestions to
> perlfaq-suggestions@perl.com . This alias should not be
> used to ask FAQs. It's for fixing the current FAQ. Send
> questions to the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
>
>Have you done this?
No. I think I am on his killfile now. :o) I do have a suggestion
tho. A short paragraph on how to access the documents. Like where is
anything said about this-
perldoc -t Net::FTP
not just perldoc perlre ?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:05:36 -0700
From: lr@hpl.hp.com (Larry Rosler)
Subject: Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm
Message-Id: <MPG.121204acfc7446f3989dbb@nntp.hpl.hp.com>
In article <7o9l6j$gdh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> on Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:11:26
GMT, @l@ <aqumsieh@matrox.com> <@l@ <aqumsieh@matrox.com>> says...
<SNIP most of a very fine post>
> Maybe you don't know how to use 'perldoc'. Or perhaps you work on a
> winblows machine that doesn't offer little useful utilities such as
> 'grep'.
Every Windows system has a Find utility (that is easy to find itself --
right off the Start menu), which has the 'advanced' capability of
finding strings within files. Because this is hidden under 'Advanced'
use, most people think than Find is useful only for the equivalent of
'ls'. They need to be enlightened.
--
(Just Another Larry) Rosler
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Larry_Rosler/
lr@hpl.hp.com
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 10:16:32 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm
Message-Id: <37a86760@cs.colorado.edu>
In comp.lang.perl.misc,
llornkcor@earthlink.net (llornkcor@earthlink.net) writes:
: I happen to _prefer_ where the comment is before the quoted text, that
:way I dont have to scroll through it all. Personal choose.
Trim, interpolate, and summarize. It's wrong to place so huge
a quotation at the front that scrolling is needed.
And get a real newsreader while you're at it, so such things
aren't even needed.
--tom
--
If you want to program in C, program in C. It's a nice language. I
use it occasionally... :-)
--Larry Wall in <7577@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:26:54 GMT
From: jtbell@presby.edu (Jon Bell)
Subject: Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm
Message-Id: <FFy8Cu.2o3@presby.edu>
llornkcor@earthlink.net <llornkcor@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I happen to _prefer_ where the comment is before the quoted text, that
>way I dont have to scroll through it all. Personal choose.
Indeed, if someone *insists* on quoting the *entire* message that he is
responding to, and it's more than a screenful, I prefer to have the new
stuff at the top so I don't have to scroll forever to get to it.
But if all that stuff is just scrollbar practice fodder, then it isn't
really necessary to include it, is it? I'd *really* prefer that he
*delete* most of the quoted text and leave just enough of it behind to set
the context. *Then* I prefer to have the quoted text before the reply.
--
Jon Bell <jtbell@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
[ Information about newsgroups for beginners: ]
[ http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6882/ ]
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 16:46:48 GMT
From: M.Ray@ulcc.ac.uk (Malcolm Ray)
Subject: Re: [offtopic]RE:Quot St and the Jeop Gm
Message-Id: <slrn7qgrjo.46k.M.Ray@carlova.ulcc.ac.uk>
On 04 Aug 1999 09:59:39 -0600, llornkcor@earthlink.net
<llornkcor@earthlink.net> wrote:
>M.Ray@ulcc.ac.uk (Malcolm Ray) writes:
>
>>Quoting from perlfaq:
>>
>> How to contribute to this document
>>
>> You may mail corrections, additions, and suggestions to
>> perlfaq-suggestions@perl.com . This alias should not be
>> used to ask FAQs. It's for fixing the current FAQ. Send
>> questions to the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
>>
>>Have you done this?
>
> No. I think I am on his killfile now. :o)
perlfaq-suggestions filters mail based on sender address? Do you know
this?
> I do have a suggestion
> tho. A short paragraph on how to access the documents. Like where is
> anything said about this-
>
>perldoc -t Net::FTP
>not just perldoc perlre ?
I'm not sure what you're saying there. Do you mean that 'perldoc perldoc'
provides an inadequate explanation of how to use perldoc?
--
Malcolm Ray University of London Computer Centre
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:50:47 +0300
From: "gosha" <georgy@gtek.co.il>
Subject: CGI and LOBs
Message-Id: <7o9n61$44o$1@news.netvision.net.il>
How can I use ODBC and LOBs with Perl?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:12:11 GMT
From: jtbell@presby.edu (Jon Bell)
Subject: Re: checking for a filename in a directory
Message-Id: <FFy7oB.1nB@presby.edu>
Andy Collado <acollado@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>How would I check to see that a filename inputted from a form is a
>valid filename within a directory that is also specified from the same
>form?
Use an appropriate file test function, e.g.
if (-e $Filename) {
print "It exists!\n";
} else {
print "It doesn't exist!\n";
}
There are many different file test functions, and -e may not be the one
you really want. To find out about them all, do a
perldoc perlfunc
and search for the string "file test". Your favorite Perl book should
have a page or two about them, also.
--
Jon Bell <jtbell@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
[ Information about newsgroups for beginners: ]
[ http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6882/ ]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:42:36 +0100
From: Richard H <rhrh@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: help running Perl Scripts in win95
Message-Id: <37A85F6C.7172932F@hotmail.com>
Tom Christiansen wrote:
>
> .work take would it but, harder tried you if annoying more be
> probably could you, know uoY.
>
Having just seen star wars last night the above sounds like Yoda, :-)
Jedi yet you are not.
Richard H
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:28:05 +0100
From: "Chris Denman" <chris@inta.net.uk>
Subject: Re: Help with form input to ouput in another frame?
Message-Id: <7o9pkv$94f$1@news2.vas-net.net>
In the form tag, specify a target for the results.
<form action=/cgi-bin/myprog.cgi method=post target=otherwindow>
You cannot specify a target in the script itself.
HTH
Chris Denman
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 16:35:43 GMT
From: M.Ray@ulcc.ac.uk (Malcolm Ray)
Subject: Re: How can I know what modules are installed on server?
Message-Id: <slrn7qgquv.46k.M.Ray@carlova.ulcc.ac.uk>
On 3 Aug 1999 20:50:16 -0500, 99% Energy <Spam@IsBadForTheInternet.com> wrote:
>In your striving for perfect internet etiquette you forget the main point of
>the internet in the first place: comunication. It is much more effective to
>comunicate putting what you are writing on top of the message because that
>is what your reader wants to see first, specially if it the thread has been
>all read before.
Nonsense. A careful quoting style *aids* communication. Because of
where I have placed this paragraph, it is clear what part of your
artcle I am replying to at this point. If I quoted the whole damn
thing, and appended or prepended my response, someone trying to
follow the discussion would be forced to scan backwards and forwards.
This is particular relevant to a group like clpmisc, where you're often
writing commentary on pieces of code. If you want to draw attention
to the behaviour of certain lines of a large chunk of code, it is far
clearer to do so with an interspersed quoting style - particularly if
the bug you're identifying relates to program flow (e.g. "you close
the file here ... but here you try reading from it again!").
I sometimes get the feeling that people who use your style of quoting
don't want a dialogue at all: they just want to say their piece.
>Also you tend to generalize too much, dismissing people as lusers, morons,
>or newbies.
Good. If I can annoy one luser a day, my time hasn't been wasted.
--
Malcolm Ray University of London Computer Centre
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:56:14 +0300
From: "gosha" <georgy@gtek.co.il>
Subject: How can I use ODBC and LOBs with Perl?
Message-Id: <7o9ng7$4fq$1@news.netvision.net.il>
How can I use ODBC and LOBs with Perl?
Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:38:38 GMT
From: bart.lateur@skynet.be (Bart Lateur)
Subject: Re: Newbie Q: How to check if invoked as CGI program
Message-Id: <37a86c64.276767@news.skynet.be>
Larry Rosler wrote:
>A few days ago, someone suggested $ENV{REQUEST_METHOD}, which makes
>eminent sense, I think.
Thank you. Now, if only you could remember who that someone was...
:-)
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 12:05:47 -0400
From: dannn <dannn@somewhere.in.time>
Subject: Newbie question on Expect
Message-Id: <37A864DB.AE487D85@somewhere.in.time>
Hi, all
I recently downloaded the Expect.pm module (as well as IO::Tty and
IO::Stty) in order to have a script communicate with the Unix passwd
program. Does anyone know of examples of use for this module? I would
greatly appreciate any help.
dan
P.S. I'd post the code I've tried, but it would only serve to have the
experienced Perl people laugh at me =)
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 16:53:26 GMT
From: fulko@dizzy.ipo.tue.nl (Fulko van Westrenen)
Subject: Re: password protected site
Message-Id: <slrn7qgs06.ev5.fulko@dizzy.ipo.tue.nl>
On 3 Aug 1999 21:41:43 -0500, Abigail <abigail@delanet.com> wrote:
>Fulko van Westrenen (fulko@trane.wtm.tudelft.nl) wrote on MMCLXIII
>September MCMXCIII in <URL:news:slrn7qef09.d1.fulko@trane.wtm.tudelft.nl>:
>||
>|| I would like to make a password protected page with perl:
>|| after you enter a user/password you can update a database.
>|| I have some ideas about how this should be done but is
>|| the some documentation on this subject?
>
>
>I'd say, that part of the transaction *shouldn't* be done with Perl.
Found that out:
http://www.apacheweek.com/features/userauth
Thanks,
Fulko
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 10:26:37 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: Question for Perl gurus
Message-Id: <37a869bd@cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting mailed to cited author]
In comp.lang.perl.misc,
"Mr Amigo21" <amigo21@pacific.net.sg> writes:
: I'm new to the language perl and have tried writing a few CGI
:scripts in perl but I would like to know how we can open an external program
:via the Perl-CGI script to run on the server?
One learns about Perl functions by reading the perlfunc manpage.
You'll find that there's a function named open(), which coincidentally
enough, opens things.
And your subject line super-sucks, amiguito. I'm adding "guru" to
my killfile.
--tom
--
"Is consciousness just a special form of hallucaintaion?"
- Frank Herbert
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:31:59 -0400
From: "Allan M. Due" <Allan@due.net>
Subject: Re: Repetition in RE substitutions
Message-Id: <7o9q75$71v$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>
Uri Guttman wrote in message ...
:>>>>> "DB" == Don Blaheta <dpb@cs.brown.edu> writes:
:
: DB> Here's an example. Say I have a lot of text, in which occur
serial
: DB> numbers of the form \d+(-\d+)* . I need to go through and remove
the
: DB> hyphens from these numbers, without removing the hyphens from the
rest
: DB> of the text. Conceptually, what I want is something like
[snip]
:my first solution to my problem was to grab the insides of () and run a
:tr/:/%/ on them with the /e modifier. it worked but i didn't like it.
:
:the trick you missed is that $1 is also read only so you have to assign
:it to a temp var to modify it.
:so to fix that code you would do this:
:
: s/(\d+(-\d+)*)/ ($tmp = $1) =~ tr{-}{} /eg
:
:but that is as ugly as mine was.
[snip of final solution]
Is it me or is something missing in the above. Perhaps a d and a $tmp?
<g>
One (still ugly) way:
s/(\d+(-\d+)*)/($tmp = $1) =~ tr{-}{}d=>$tmp/eg;
AmD
--
$email{'Allan M. Due'} = ' All@n.Due.net ';
--random quote --
A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose
both, and deserve neither.
- Thomas Jefferson
------------------------------
Date: 04 Aug 1999 13:04:38 -0400
From: Uri Guttman <uri@sysarch.com>
Subject: Re: Repetition in RE substitutions
Message-Id: <x7wvvbiijd.fsf@home.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "AMD" == Allan M Due <Allan@due.net> writes:
AMD> Uri Guttman wrote in message ...
AMD> :
AMD> : s/(\d+(-\d+)*)/ ($tmp = $1) =~ tr{-}{} /eg
AMD> Is it me or is something missing in the above. Perhaps a d and a $tmp?
AMD> <g>
AMD> One (still ugly) way:
AMD> s/(\d+(-\d+)*)/($tmp = $1) =~ tr{-}{}d=>$tmp/eg;
yes, i forgot to return $tmp and missed the /d. but i never used (or
tested) that method since i found the much better way with assertions. i
would have fixed it had i tried it. the concept of the temp var was
valid though.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ----------------- SYStems ARCHitecture and Software Engineering
uri@sysarch.com --------------------------- Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
Have Perl, Will Travel ----------------------------- http://www.sysarch.com
The Best Search Engine on the Net ------------- http://www.northernlight.com
"F**king Windows 98", said the general in South Park before shooting Bill.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:27:18 -0700
From: lr@hpl.hp.com (Larry Rosler)
Subject: Re: revert gmtime()
Message-Id: <MPG.121209c2c3930e4e989dbc@nntp.hpl.hp.com>
In article <slrn7qgfpj.1uq.fl_aggie@thepentagon.com> on 4 Aug 1999
13:22:53 GMT, I R A Darth Aggie <fl_aggie@thepentagon.com> says...
> On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 06:36:00 -0400, James A Culp III <admin@futuristic.net>, in
> <7o95ff$fc1$1@ffx2nh3.news.uu.net> wrote:
> + Lüder Sachse <sachse@aeb.de> wrote in message
> + news:37A8030C.82DFE115@aeb.de...
> + > Is there an easy way (or a function) to calculate the seconds since
> + > epoch out of a gmtime-formatted date string like 'Tue Aug 3 17:35:27
> + > 1999'?
...
> NAME
> Time::Local - efficiently compute time from local and GMT
> time
>
> SYNOPSIS
> $time = timelocal($sec,$min,$hours,$mday,$mon,$year);
> $time = timegm($sec,$min,$hours,$mday,$mon,$year);
Don't forget this 'deep' piece of code:
my $year = substr($date, 20, 4) - 1900;
my $mon = index('JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec',
substr $date, 4, 3) / 3;
More likely, the pieces will have been extracted using a regex, not
substr.
--
(Just Another Larry) Rosler
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Larry_Rosler/
lr@hpl.hp.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:43:44 -0500
From: "Eric Stevens" <stevenej@uwec.edu>
Subject: socket.ph
Message-Id: <7o9ptu$e70@wiscnews.wiscnet.net>
Could somebody please email me the socket.ph file? I need it to write a ftp
script.
Thanks
Eric
--
Eric Stevens
UW-Eau Claire
CNS Technical Support
stevenej@uwec.edu
office: 715.836.6026 fax: 978.285.7921
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 12:46:30 -0400
From: Tom Kralidis <tom.kralidis@ccrs.nrcanDOTgc.ca>
Subject: Re: Strange STDOUT on script, any ideas?
Message-Id: <37A86E66.E82FEE5C@ccrs.nrcanDOTgc.ca>
Bob Walton wrote:
>
> > ...
>
> > The files do reach their correct destination, and dirs are made (the
> > script is functional), but STDOUT returns messages of "No such file or
> > directory. It looks like it is looking for files that have been already
> > moved.
> >
> > foreach $input (<*.txt>)
> > {
> > $north = $1 and $east = $2 if $input =~ /(N\d{2})d\d{2}m(W\d{3}).*/;
> > if ( -d "/user/home/img/$east/$north")
> > {
> > system("mv $north*$east* /user/home/$east/$north/");
> > }
> > else
> > {
> > mkpath(["/user/home/$east/$north"], 1, 0775);
> > system("mv $north*$east* /user/home/$east/$north/");
> > }
> > }
> >
> > Does anyone have any ideas as to why this is hapenning? Any advice
> > would be appreciated.
>
> ...
> Tom, my guess is that the files you are moving underneath the "foreach" loop
> are causing the trouble -- that is, the list of files generated by <*.txt>
> is being changed as the loop iterator goes through its processing. That's
> usually not a nice thing to do to an iterator. Maybe something like:
>
> foreach(<*.txt){push @array,$_}
> foreach $input (@array){
> ...rest of your program
>
> would work without the messages?
Bob,
Thanks for the advice. What I ended up doing was writing a foreach
within a foreach (two types of files), to get rid of the STDERR. That
seemed to do the trick.
..Tom
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 10:24:01 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: truncating decimals
Message-Id: <37a86921@cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting mailed to cited author]
In comp.lang.perl.misc,
Stone Cold <paulm@dirigo.com> writes:
:I have a perl script that's outputting dollar figures to the web. The
:script contains equations calculations. The problems I'm encountering
:is that the calculated dollar figures are coming out as follows:
:
: $4514.76578492
That's a big RTFM, good buddy.
% man perlfaq4
NAME
perlfaq4 - Data Manipulation ($Revision: 1.49 $, $Date:
1999/05/23 20:37:49 $)
DESCRIPTION
The section of the FAQ answers question related to the
manipulation of data as numbers, dates, strings, arrays, hashes,
and miscellaneous data issues.
Data: Numbers
Why am I getting long decimals (eg, 19.9499999999999)
instead of the numbers I should be getting (eg, 19.95)?
The infinite set that a mathematician thinks of as the real
numbers can only be approximate on a computer, since the
computer only has a finite number of bits to store an infinite
number of, um, numbers.
Internally, your computer represents floating-point numbers in
binary. Floating-point numbers read in from a file or appearing
as literals in your program are converted from their decimal
floating-point representation (eg, 19.95) to the internal binary
representation.
However, 19.95 can't be precisely represented as a binary
floating-point number, just like 1/3 can't be exactly
represented as a decimal floating-point number. The computer's
binary representation of 19.95, therefore, isn't exactly 19.95.
When a floating-point number gets printed, the binary floating-
point representation is converted back to decimal. These decimal
numbers are displayed in either the format you specify with
printf(), or the current output format for numbers (see the
section on "$#" in the perlvar manpage if you use print. `$#'
has a different default value in Perl5 than it did in Perl4.
Changing `$#' yourself is deprecated.
This affects all computer languages that represent decimal
floating-point numbers in binary, not just Perl. Perl provides
arbitrary-precision decimal numbers with the Math::BigFloat
module (part of the standard Perl distribution), but
mathematical operations are consequently slower.
To get rid of the superfluous digits, just use a format (eg,
`printf("%.2f", 19.95)') to get the required precision. See the
section on "Floating-point Arithmetic" in the perlop manpage.
[VERBA DELETA SUNT]
And read the rest, too.
--tom
--
Remember though that
THERE IS NO GENERAL RULE FOR CONVERTING A LIST INTO A SCALAR.
--Larry Wall in the perl man page
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:20:07 GMT
From: Nitin <ngupta@netscape.net>
Subject: which module?
Message-Id: <7o9p7a$jik$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
my script needs to access some web pages which are password protected,
is there a module which I can use to accomplish this? the password
challenge is the server generated challenge.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 16:48:49 GMT
From: M.Ray@ulcc.ac.uk (Malcolm Ray)
Subject: Re: which module?
Message-Id: <slrn7qgrnh.46k.M.Ray@carlova.ulcc.ac.uk>
On Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:20:07 GMT, Nitin <ngupta@netscape.net> wrote:
>my script needs to access some web pages which are password protected,
>is there a module which I can use to accomplish this? the password
>challenge is the server generated challenge.
LWP::UserAgent
--
Malcolm Ray University of London Computer Centre
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 10:07:00 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: Why is it....
Message-Id: <37a86524@cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting mailed to cited author]
In comp.lang.perl.misc, Chris Goodwin <archer7@mindspring.com> writes:
:why is it that I, who have only been hacking Perl for ~3 days, can read
:through the documentation and the previous newsgroup postings (7000+ of them
:on my server) and write up a 122-line program that does what I want it to do
:(which is turn my text into my HTML -- not *entirely* finished yet, but the
:rest is details -- I've gotten over my hurdles), all *without* having to ask
:anyone for help, while other people around here, who apparently have been
:hacking Perl for longer than I, have to come in and ask the same questions
:over and over?
Perhaps because you were born with at least a modicum of native
intelligence, resourcefulness, motivation, and perseverance?
Consider how frankly dim a bulb the "average" person is, all in all.
Now, consider that nearly 50% of the people out there are below this
already underwhelming state. This is the crux of the problem.
Ignorance can be cured, as you have so capably demonstrated through your
own researches. Stupidity, however, is a crippling disability which is
both congenital and incurable. Fortunately, we always seem to need people
to pick up trash or give out fries at the drive-in window. Unfortunately,
many of these people get the idea in their heads that they're going
to become "HTML programmers". And as yourself have doubtless noticed,
many of these come here in desperation with their hands outstretched,
begging for alms. One does what one can for such supplicants, but too
often one can in the long run do nothing.
There's this dirty little secret that nobody likes to talk about in
public today, for it is phenomenally politically incorrect to do so--as
I predict the ensuing followups to this posting shall presently prove.
That dirty little secret is that there exists a thing called "talent",
and that either you have it, or you don't.
Some people have a knack for programming, but most people don't.
Not everyone is born to do everything. As far as the case at hand is
concerned, not everyone has the raw mental horsepower combined with
that special problem-solving thinking style that it takes to be a good
programmer. Nobody wants to hear it said, but their unwillingness to
listen does not render any less true the observation that not everyone
is cut out for programming. That's just the way it is, and the sooner
people recognize and accept this, the sooner they'll be able to cease
frustrating themselves and others, and get on with their lives.
Talent cannot be instilled.
Talent cannot be learned.
Talent cannot be taught.
Talent cannot be bought.
Talent cannot be created.
Very few are born gifted, but that's the only way you get it--which
is why, after all, it's called a gift. Seldom does a brilliant
mathematician, physicist, composer, or computer programmer spontaneously
appear late in life, having just spent their previous three or four
decades flipping burgers. The gifted and the talented amongst us are
noticed early. They are a light that burns too brightly to ignore.
Their natural gifts cannot be hidden from the world, their talents
suppressed. They can be nurtured or they can be starved, yet genius
remains something born and not made.
Great programmers are artists, coding artisans if you would, whose
insights and inspirations are irreproducible and irreplaceable.
You can't just fire one great programmer in and then turn around and hire
yourself another. Even if you managed to find another great programmer,
it wouldn't be the same.
Genius is unique.
The traditional engineering techniques and orderly production schedules
that old-style managers try to apply to programming are not always
well-suited to that discipline, for it is often more one of inspiration
than it is of perspiration. This drives profit-minded businessmen with
concrete deadlines completely crazy with frustration, because they are
unable to predict those flashes of brilliance from gifted individuals
that may be critical to their venture.
The quality and quantity of work created by a great programmer are
immeasurably superior to that produced by any possible number of poor
programmers combined. No number of accountants and tax preparers can add
up to another Gauss or Einstein, nor can any quantity of house painters
be combined to create a Leonardo or Rembrandt. And no matter how many
script kiddies and "HTML programmers" you care to gather together, you
will never in that aggregate mass arrive at the equivalent of Donald
Knuth or Ken Thompson.
Fine, so not everyone is cut out to become a great programmer. So what?
Can't anyone be at least a regular programmer?
Well no, I'm afraid not. Not everyone is cut out to be any sort
of programmer whatsoever. They just don't have the gift it takes.
The explosion of the net and the disparagement of formal education have
combined to generate a popular but perilous myth that anyone can be
a programmer. They can't.
This doesn't mean that the merely average person cannot ever be
educated, nor that in them cannot be instilled an abiding sense of
hard work and an honest desire for achievement. Certainly these are
worthy goals for anyone; there is no dishonor in hard work, whether it
be in house-keeping or in chemistry. These people can still lead happy
and fulfilling and productive lives--just perhaps not in programming.
Sometimes you'll find that there are people who just don't "have it"
and never will; you can usually see this in a person pretty early on.
You should no more try to entice these people into a career in rocket
science or computer programming than should you attempt to teach a pig
to sing. The appropriate biological hardware just isn't there, and all
you'll end up with is a lot of frustrated and unhappy people. And pigs.
Returning to your original question, motivation is uncommon, perseverance
less common still--and intelligence a rare trait indeed. But rarer
by far than any of these is that most elusive and valued of gifts:
creativity, which is priceless. Be not surprised, then, how scarce
are the individuals who actually manifest all four of these attributes.
Be instead contented that in you at least some of these must truly reside
for you to have done what you have reported.
Good luck to you,
--tom
--
"The plural of anecdote is not data."
-- Roger Brinner
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:49:04 GMT
From: bart.lateur@skynet.be (Bart Lateur)
Subject: Re: Why is it....
Message-Id: <37aa6ea9.857489@news.skynet.be>
Chris Goodwin wrote:
>why is it that I, who have only been hacking Perl for ~3 days, can read
>through the documentation and the previous newsgroup postings ...
>while other people around here, who apparently have been
>hacking Perl for longer than I, have to come in and ask the same questions
>over and over?
Because it's not always the same people? Yes, *different* people come
here and ask those same questions.
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 11:12:08 -0500
From: Tom Briles <sariq@texas.net>
Subject: Re: working with = sign in a directory name - please help!
Message-Id: <37A86658.E651B494@texas.net>
Timothy J Flynn wrote:
>
> I'm sorry but I never saw where you addressed my problem. Does anyone know
> why perl can't work with the = sign at the beginning of the directory name?
> I posted examples like you asked with no response...
>
> Thanks,
> -Tim
1) Putting the response before the quotation will get you into alot of
killfiles. Especially those of the people here who can help you the
most.
2) There were two (very similar) responses to your examples. Did you
read them?
- Tom
------------------------------
Date: 4 Aug 1999 16:23:11 -0000
From: anno4000@lublin.zrz.tu-berlin.de (Anno Siegel)
Subject: Re: working with = sign in a directory name - please help!
Message-Id: <7o9pdf$cp4$1@lublin.zrz.tu-berlin.de>
Timothy J Flynn <tflynn@iastate.edu> wrote in comp.lang.perl.misc:
>I'm sorry but I never saw where you addressed my problem. Does anyone know
>why perl can't work with the = sign at the beginning of the directory name?
>I posted examples like you asked with no response...
I think I replied to that one before. The answer is, that Perl doesn't
care if there's a '=' in a directory name. What makes you think it does?
Anno
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 99 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 1 Jul 99)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V9 Issue 365
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