[12276] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 5875 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Jun 3 13:07:36 1999
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 99 10:00:24 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 3 Jun 1999 Volume: 8 Number: 5875
Today's topics:
Re: [?] Where do Mail Robot warnings go? (I R A Aggie)
Basic oraperl array question <jhecker@iago.nac.net>
Re: Basic oraperl array question (David Cantrell)
Cookies, CGI.pm and IE <eivind@solbors.no>
Re: Find all files regardless of extension <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Re: GD, PPM, XML: Parser <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Re: Help! Perl "typo" error <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
Re: Help! Perl "typo" error <shamu_78@hotmail.com>
Re: Help! Perl "typo" error <craig@mathworks.com>
Re: How to create a list-of-lists dynamically? <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: How to exec a program( system() ) in a limited time <hasant@trabas.co.id>
Re: Importing functions into current namespace? <sstarre@my-deja.com>
Re: Importing functions into current namespace? <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: location of socket.pm <hasant@trabas.co.id>
Re: location of socket.pm <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: Need help with sub routines <hasant@trabas.co.id>
Re: Perl "constructors" armchair@my-deja.com
Re: Perl "constructors" armchair@my-deja.com
Re: Perl "constructors" armchair@my-deja.com
Re: Perl "constructors" armchair@my-deja.com
Re: Perl "constructors" armchair@my-deja.com
Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Dec 98 (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 3 Jun 1999 15:52:10 GMT
From: fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: [?] Where do Mail Robot warnings go?
Message-Id: <slrn7ld9bl.77v.fl_aggie@thepentagon.com>
On Mon, 31 May 1999 14:31:02 GMT, Sergei Klimov
<sergei_klimov@sierra.auriga.ru>, in <7iu6f7$ftj$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
wrote:
+ Could you please teach me where to find warnings from e-mail robot?
+ I wrote a script for processing incoming mail, and put
+ "!/usr/bin/perl -w
+ in its first line. Now I would like to see those warnings but do not
+ know where to find them. Please help. I found answer neither in FAQ,
+ nor in Camel and Llama books.
They go to STDERR. Now, as to where *you'll* see them, that depends
on how you run your script. If it is from the command line, well, then
STDERR will go streaming on your screen. If you're running it from
a cron-type environment, it should show up in your mailbox, a service
of cron. In a WWW environment, STDERR ends up in the error log, and
where that is located is installation dependent -- talk to the web
admin.
James
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:16:42 GMT
From: Jared Hecker <jhecker@iago.nac.net>
Subject: Basic oraperl array question
Message-Id: <KTx53.667$m4.3117@nntp1>
I feel a little foolish asking this, but -
Given a statement that fetches multiple fields via &ora_fetch, is each
field accessed as an element of an array? IOW, if I am fetching x rows
with y fields, is each field referenced as $array[field position]?
Nothing in the Oraperl docs refers to this and I feel like I am writing
way too many cursors and fetches to do something like this.
If it is convenient, e-mail will reach me faster.
TIA -
Regards,
jh
--
Jared Hecker | HWA Inc. - Oracle architecture and Administration
jared@hwai.com | ** serving NYC and New Jersey **
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:55:06 GMT
From: NukeEmUp@ThePentagon.com (David Cantrell)
Subject: Re: Basic oraperl array question
Message-Id: <3756af58.3876894@news.insnet.net>
On Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:16:42 GMT, Jared Hecker <jhecker@iago.nac.net>
said:
>Given a statement that fetches multiple fields via &ora_fetch, is each
>field accessed as an element of an array? IOW, if I am fetching x rows
>with y fields, is each field referenced as $array[field position]?
Yes. ora_fetch returns a single row as a list where each element is a
field from your query.
eg ...
$chiliHabits=&ora_open($dbh,
"SELECT userid, email, chilis_for_breakfast, ".
" TO_CHAR(stamp,'DD-MON-YYYY HH24:MI:SS') ".
" FROM users");
while(($userid, $email, $chilis, $stamp)=&ora_fetch($chiliHabits)) {
print "User no $userid ($email) ate $chilis chilis for ";
print "breakfast at $stamp.\n";
}
>Nothing in the Oraperl docs refers to this and I feel like I am writing
>way too many cursors and fetches to do something like this.
Try 'perldoc Oraperl'.
You need to open a cursor for every query you issue. You then
ora_fetch each row one by one.
[Copying newsgroup posts to me by mail is considered rude]
--
David Cantrell, part-time Unix/perl/SQL/java techie
full-time chef/musician/homebrewer
http://www.ThePentagon.com/NukeEmUp
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:20:26 +0000
From: Eivind Trondsen <eivind@solbors.no>
Subject: Cookies, CGI.pm and IE
Message-Id: <3756AB4A.C7749D65@solbors.no>
Hi all
I run HTML::Embperl-scripts (using mod_perl-1.1.19) on apache 1.3.6. I
use CGI.pm to manage a cookie, but with IE additional characters are
inserted into the cookie making it break my app. The character in
question is always $, and one is added each time I reload the page.
The cookie content is a hash. Which is 'serialized' by CGI.pm.
Strange or what!? Anybody seen this happen before?
-
Eivind Trondsen - SOL Bxrs AS http://www.solbors.no
Tlf 22 11 35 14 Fax 22 11 35 13 Mob 924 14 969
Q: What's tiny and yellow and very, very, dangerous?
A: A canary with the super-user password.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:26:22 -0700
From: David Cassell <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: Find all files regardless of extension
Message-Id: <3756ACAE.BF6B4D96@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Jonathan Stowe wrote:
>
> Abigail <abigail@delanet.com> wrote:
> > Bart Lateur (bart.lateur@skynet.be) wrote on MMLXXVI September MCMXCIII
> > in <URL:news:373551e7.3001816@news.skynet.be>:
> > && Jonathan Stowe wrote:
> > &&
> > && >One usually would do something like:
> > && >
> > && > @files = grep !/^\.{1,2}$/,readdir(DIR);
> > &&
> > && That's a complex regex for such a simple test.
> > &&
> > && How about
> > &&
> > && /[^.]/
> >
> > ... is a normal file, but it doesn't match /[^.]/.
> >
> >
>
> Except on a PC woth Novell Client Software installed where 'cd ...' will
> take you up two directories - most strange.
Okay, now we're really OT, but this is not a Novell issue.
It's an MS-DOS issue. It should work in any command prompt
for any win* system. And not only does 'cd ...' take you up
2 dirs, but cd .... takes you up 3, and cd ..... takes you up
4 dirs, etc. [Assuming you have that many dirs to go up before
you hit C:\ or whatever.]
Don't know why, but occasionally it's handy to have.
David
--
David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior computing specialist
mathematical statistician
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:41:26 -0700
From: David Cassell <cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Subject: Re: GD, PPM, XML: Parser
Message-Id: <3756B036.36784EC5@mail.cor.epa.gov>
Matt Sergeant wrote:
>
> David Cassell wrote:
> >
> > Errm, maybe not. Before you re-install, you might go to the
> > ActiveState website and check under Packages/support. PPM uses the
> > XML::Parser module internally, so it's possible to hose this
> > [like trying to install a new XML::Parser module from PPM
> > itself]. I think ActiveState has a doc on fixing this problem.
>
> XML::Parser is what's returning the error - it's not hosed, some XML
> file that it's trying to parse is hosed. Either all the ppd's on AS's
> repository are hosed (doubtfull) or ppm.xml on this guy's machine is
> hosed.
Agreed. My thoughts exactly. But hasn't Murray Nesbitt uploaded
a fix for this on the ActiveState website? That ought to be
faster than re-installing. Hmm, given how fast ActiveState
installed on my system, maybe not...
David
--
David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior computing specialist
mathematical statistician
------------------------------
Date: 3 Jun 1999 16:54:52 +0100
From: Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@gellyfish.com>
Subject: Re: Help! Perl "typo" error
Message-Id: <3756a54c@newsread3.dircon.co.uk>
Kevin Howe <khowe@performance-net.com> wrote:
> I have been using a script I wrote successfully for quite some time, but for
> some reason on one of my servers I am now getting the following errors when
> I do a syntax check, despite the fact that there are no "typos" in the
> variable names. Can anyone tell me what is happenning?
>
> Greatly appreciated,
> Kevin
>
> Errors
> ----------------------
> Name "main::ITEM_AFTER_SHIPPING" used only once: possible typo at
> /virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 293.
>
> Name "main::options" used only once: possible typo at
> /virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 332.
>
> Name "main::tax1" used only once: possible typo at
> /virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 460.
>
They are not 'errors' they are warnings - you should check in the perldiag
manpage as to what it means.
/J\
--
Jonathan Stowe <jns@gellyfish.com>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:46:58 GMT
From: "micheal" <shamu_78@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Help! Perl "typo" error
Message-Id: <6ky53.2$4L5.244@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>
It looks like you have a var that is not being used I have seen this before
are you using the -w option with perl if so take it off and there should be
no output.
Kevin Howe wrote in message <72x53.6384$%65.13422@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>...
>I have been using a script I wrote successfully for quite some time, but
for
>some reason on one of my servers I am now getting the following errors when
>I do a syntax check, despite the fact that there are no "typos" in the
>variable names. Can anyone tell me what is happenning?
>
>Greatly appreciated,
>Kevin
>
>Errors
>----------------------
>Name "main::ITEM_AFTER_SHIPPING" used only once: possible typo at
>/virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 293.
>
>Name "main::options" used only once: possible typo at
>/virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 332.
>
>Name "main::tax1" used only once: possible typo at
>/virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 460.
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 12:51:43 -0400
From: Craig Ciquera <craig@mathworks.com>
Subject: Re: Help! Perl "typo" error
Message-Id: <3756B29E.8DFC1014@mathworks.com>
I would say you want to keep -w and actually fix the problem.
Try pre-defining these varaibles.
Craig
micheal wrote:
> It looks like you have a var that is not being used I have seen this before
> are you using the -w option with perl if so take it off and there should be
> no output.
> Kevin Howe wrote in message <72x53.6384$%65.13422@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>...
> >I have been using a script I wrote successfully for quite some time, but
> for
> >some reason on one of my servers I am now getting the following errors when
> >I do a syntax check, despite the fact that there are no "typos" in the
> >variable names. Can anyone tell me what is happenning?
> >
> >Greatly appreciated,
> >Kevin
> >
> >Errors
> >----------------------
> >Name "main::ITEM_AFTER_SHIPPING" used only once: possible typo at
> >/virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 293.
> >
> >Name "main::options" used only once: possible typo at
> >/virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 332.
> >
> >Name "main::tax1" used only once: possible typo at
> >/virtualhosts/triple-bypass.com//www/cgi-bin/carts/plans/shop.cgi line 460.
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------
Date: 3 Jun 1999 10:07:53 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: How to create a list-of-lists dynamically?
Message-Id: <3756a859@cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting mailed to cited author]
In comp.lang.perl.misc, friendly@hotspur.psych.yorku.ca (Michael Friendly) writes:
: $p->mymethod($text, {items => ($lineno, $step)});
^ ^
^ ^
^ ^
wrong brackets
--tom
--
Your best protection is always abstaining.
If this isn't always possible the next best is encrypting.
- Morrow
desuckification, di-suk'-i-fi-ka-shon, n. the act of removing that which
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:53:28 +0700 (JAVT)
From: Hasanuddin Tamir <hasant@trabas.co.id>
To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
Subject: Re: How to exec a program( system() ) in a limited time?
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990603105036.15478A-100000@borg.intern.trabas.co.id>
On 26 May 1999, Eric Yu wrote:
ericyu] Date: 26 May 1999 11:49:38 GMT
ericyu] From: Eric Yu <ericyu@infor.eu.org>
ericyu] To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
ericyu] Subject: How to exec a program( system() ) in a limited time?
ericyu] Reply-To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
ericyu] Organization: SEEDNet News Service
ericyu]
ericyu] I want to use system() call to exec a program, but I want it stop(be killed)
ericyu] after 1 hour, how can I do it? The second problem is that I made a menu for
ericyu] user and wait for their <STDIN>. How can I automatically exit the program if
ericyu] they didn't type anything after 10 minutes?
You can use alarm() to set timeout,
combine with eval()/die().
perldoc -f alarm
perldoc -f eval
perldoc -f die
-hasan-
+================================================================+
Hasanuddin Tamir <hasant@trabas.co.id>
TRABAS Technical Dept. PT Meitraco Bahana Sejahtera
IT Solution Provider http://www.trabas.co.id/
Surya Sumantri Blok B1 No. 35 Phone: +62-22-216660
Setrasari Mall Bandung 40146 Fax : +62-22-2007633
+================================================================+
SORRY: I ignore most of attachments but plain text type
+================================================================+
"Kubuat garis dari sebuah titik."
--bOkiR, 1998/12/05/ 16:23:29
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:15:35 GMT
From: S Starre <sstarre@my-deja.com>
Subject: Re: Importing functions into current namespace?
Message-Id: <7j5o4j$d0m$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Whats wrong wth prepending the package name? It makes debugging &
maintenence easier.
-S
In article <37561c4c.42375159@news.sprint.ca>,
wvenable_net@iname.com wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I'm sure I must be missing something obvious, but I'm writing
> a multi-module web application. I'm using object-oriented features
> but I also want a module which contains global functions. That is, I
> want to be able to access the functions by their name only without
> prepending the package name. Can I do it, and how?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
--
Code not Perl Before Wine..
-S Starre 1999
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
------------------------------
Date: 3 Jun 1999 10:58:53 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: Importing functions into current namespace?
Message-Id: <3756b44d@cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting mailed to cited author]
In comp.lang.perl.misc, S Starre <sstarre@my-deja.com> writes:
:Whats wrong wth prepending the package name? It makes debugging &
:maintenence easier.
I suspect that by using the fully-qualified name of a variable, function,
or other identifier, that you are somehow violating an interface
envelope somewhere. If it is a traditional module, then you should
probably use its import mechanism to pull in the short-named alias.
If it is an object class, then you should be using method calls to access
anything in the class.
--tom
--
There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.
--Larry Wall in <1992Aug19.041614.6963@netlabs.com>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:14:04 +0700 (JAVT)
From: Hasanuddin Tamir <hasant@trabas.co.id>
To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
Subject: Re: location of socket.pm
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990603111333.15667A-100000@borg.intern.trabas.co.id>
On Wed, 26 May 1999, Dan Burke wrote:
dbws] Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:02:47 -0400
dbws] From: Dan Burke <dbws@----nospam----hotmail.com>
dbws] To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
dbws] Subject: location of socket.pm
dbws] Reply-To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
dbws] Organization: Road Runner - NY Region Operations Center
dbws]
dbws] Where can I download the latest version of socket.pm ?
CPAN of course, where else...
-hasan-
+================================================================+
Hasanuddin Tamir <hasant@trabas.co.id>
TRABAS Technical Dept. PT Meitraco Bahana Sejahtera
IT Solution Provider http://www.trabas.co.id/
Surya Sumantri Blok B1 No. 35 Phone: +62-22-216660
Setrasari Mall Bandung 40146 Fax : +62-22-2007633
+================================================================+
SORRY: I ignore most of attachments but plain text type
+================================================================+
"...karena saya tidak percaya lagi pada lembaga bernama
sekolah yang bergedung, saya lebih percaya pada pendidikan
yang berproses dimana perjalanan hidup adalah sekolahnya."
--bOkiR (Kepada Ibunda Tercinta, Nov96)
------------------------------
Date: 3 Jun 1999 10:09:59 -0700
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: location of socket.pm
Message-Id: <3756a8d7@cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting mailed to cited author]
In comp.lang.perl.misc,
Hasanuddin Tamir <hasant@trabas.co.id> writes:
:dbws] Where can I download the latest version of socket.pm ?
:CPAN of course, where else...
That's wrong. Socket.pm is in the standard distribution, and is
not updated on CPAN. And socket.pm doesn't even exist.
--tom
--
This is Unix; if you can't get the sources, it isn't freeware.
--Peter Salus
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:14:31 +0700 (JAVT)
From: Hasanuddin Tamir <hasant@trabas.co.id>
To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
Subject: Re: Need help with sub routines
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990603131256.17030C-100000@borg.intern.trabas.co.id>
On Wed, 26 May 1999, Office mail wrote:
officemail] Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:26:46 -0500
officemail] From: Office mail <officemail@megsinet.net>
officemail] To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
officemail] Subject: Need help with sub routines
officemail] Reply-To: comp.lang.perl.misc@list.deja.com
officemail]
officemail] Im completely confused by this whole subroutine function but have a great
officemail] need for it right now. Could someone possibly send me a sample script with
officemail] subroutines in it. If anyone could it would be a great help,
officemail] knitemare@megsinet.net. If you can explain here how it works that would be
officemail] really cool too.
did you perldoc perlsub or man perlsub?
do you have perl installed?
are the docs complete?
-hasan-
+================================================================+
Hasanuddin Tamir <hasant@trabas.co.id>
TRABAS Technical Dept. PT Meitraco Bahana Sejahtera
IT Solution Provider http://www.trabas.co.id/
Surya Sumantri Blok B1 No. 35 Phone: +62-22-216660
Setrasari Mall Bandung 40146 Fax : +62-22-2007633
+================================================================+
SORRY: I ignore most of attachments but plain text type
+================================================================+
"Inti kehidupan adalah cinta."
--bOkiR, 1998/12/17 23:43:25
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:31:34 GMT
From: armchair@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Perl "constructors"
Message-Id: <7j5eh6$ahq$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
In article <927966025.384456@localhost>,
zenin@bawdycaste.org wrote:
> armchair@my-deja.com wrote:
> >snip<
> : Scalar variables in Perl (numbers, strings, references to
> : (numbers,strings,hashes,arrays,objects)) are all identified the
> : same.
> :
> : my $variable.
> >snip<
> : Only pointers declared as void can point to any variable,
> : and then you
> : can't dereference them unless you cast them to the
> : appropriate pointer -
> : you must ultimately know the type of what they point to.
>
> If it helps, think of my as void, and just as in C++
> you still have
> "cast them to the appropriate pointer" and "ultimately know they
> type of what they point to":
>
> @$myArray ala (Array)myArray
> %$myHash ala (Hash)myHash
> *$myGlob ala (fd)myIO
> $$myScalar ala (void)myScalar :-}
>
In C++ you ordinarily don't declare variables as void *. You declare
them with the type they are. Only certain generic situations (always
avoidable I would guess) would have void pointers. My programs don't
have any void pointers declared. My C++ programs that is. My Perl
programs have do have a lot of "void pointers" declared.
> >snip<
> : Overloading of operators in Perl? I guess I missed that in perlobj.
>
> perldoc overload
Thanks. I'll check it out after I get a little further along.
>
> >snip<
> :> The philosophy of OO says that types should be
> :> abstracted. Different
> :> systems abstract them to different levels, and perhaps the best we
> :> can say is that this is proper. In Perl, it was decided
> :> that -- most
> :> of the time -- numbers and strings should be dealt with
> :> via a common
> :> abstraction, i.e. a common superclass.
> :>
> > If I have a date/time object, the "philosophy of OO" may say
> > that I don't
> > need to know how it is represented, but they have nothing against me
> > knowing that it represents dates and times. But with my $a =
> > somefunction(); I don't know whether $a represents
> > date/times or is a
> > count of the number of times some functionality in
> > Perl is represented as
> > having arose from long and deep thought.
>
> ...And yet, somehow:
>
> int a;
> a = somefunction();
>
> Tells you so much more...?
int a
tells me more then
my $a
when I am trying to decipher someone else's code. Maybe not so much
more, but more. But compare
DateTime a
with
my $a
or
Window a
with
my $a
But actually, the real benefit in trying to understand foreign code
comes when you are looking at function parameters:
DoSomething(int param1, DateTime param2, Vector param3) {
code that begins using param1,param2,param3....
versus
sub DoSomething($$$) {
my $param1 = shift;
my $param2 = shift;
my $param3 = shift;
# or my (param1,param2,param3) = @_;
code that begins using param1,param2,param3.....
But, sure, variable naming can just about even it out:
sub DoSomething($$$)
my $days_deliquent = shift; # gotta be a number
my $due_date = shift; # probably a date/time object but
# certainly could be a string
# due_date_obj makes it clear
my $address_array = shift;
if the programmer chooses to.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:39:25 GMT
From: armchair@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Perl "constructors"
Message-Id: <7j5evs$akp$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
In article <927966616.318160@localhost>,
zenin@bawdycaste.org wrote:
> armchair@my-deja.com wrote:
> >snip<
> : Always remember the Perl motto: "There's more than one way to do it
-
> : TMTOWTDI". With a motto like that, you would think that there would
be
> : a great acceptance of all the diversity of code stylings. Every
color of
> : variable naming, all code structuring religions, and every crede of
> : oject definition.
>
> Simply because methods > 1, it does not follow that methods ==
> Infinity, or even that scalar grep /C/, @waysToDoIt won't == 0.
>
TMTOWTDI implies that what matters is not how, but only if it works. if
($wayWeDidIt) { style critiqing out of bounds; } Or ...
if ( $wayWeDidIt ~= /handlesAllPossibleEvents/ ) { though shalt hector
the style no more; }
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Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:07:06 GMT
From: armchair@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Perl "constructors"
Message-Id: <7j5gjm$b24$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
In article <slrn7ksm2r.fvf.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>,
sholden@cs.usyd.edu.au wrote:
> >Here's where I think you tripped up in your calculations. Linux was
> >written over a period of 8 years, but most of it was written by one
> >fellow. No need to include all his pizza buddies and hangers on.
> > And I
> >happen to know that he has been resting on his laurels for quite
> > a few
> >years now. Like most great talents, his output was far from constant.
> >The last few years has found him watching more Nick at Night than
> >coding. My estimates are that he wrote 70% of the 1.4 million
> >lines of
> >code in in first two years, and 50% in the first year.
>
> I'm sure the people that wrote over 80% of the linux kernel will be
> pleased to know you refer to them as hangers on. If you read the
> CREDITS file you'll see how large the non-Linus contribution is.
> Here's a sample from 1.0 :
>
> N: Theodore Ts'o
> E: tytso@mit.edu
> D: Random Linux hacker
> D: Maintainer of tsx-11.mit.edu ftp archive
> D: Maintainer of c.o.l.* Usenet<->mail gateway
> D: Author of serial driver
> D: Author of the new e2fsck
> D: Author of job control and system call restart code
> D: Author of ramdisk device driver
> D: Author of loopback device driver
> S: MIT Room E40-343
> S: 1 Amherst Street
> S: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139
> S: USA
Sure, I am well aware of that list. Relatives, ex-girlfriends, ski
buddies, childhood friends, neighbors, etc.. It just goes on and on.
Torvalds is an incredibly humble person and just finds it hard to take
as much credit as he deserves. But I can appreciate where it would mess
up your calculations.
>
> You say Linus hasn't coded much in the last few years. Since
> 66% of the kernel
> was written in the last 3 years why do you claim he wrote 70% in the
> first two years. Maybe because you have no idea what you are
> talking about
> and are just lieing to back up what you have said.
Let me correct you here. There is a difference between the time code is
written and the time code is released. You are measuring released code,
in trying to calculate code writing rates. You need to go on when
Torvalds actually wrote it, rather than when (after years of what I have
to reluctantly call "apple polishing") he distributes it to friends and
they in turn give it back to the main distribution bodies.
>
> These facts are easy to check, but you persist in just making
> stuff up that
> suits your arguments.
It is actually hard to check up on when Torvalds actually wrote the
code. I only know so much because I happened to be next table over at
Gordan Biersh one night during a Linux Conference. Eventually all
tables where joined, and after a liberal downing of suds, the truth
started to come out. I was even more amazed at the man's humility and
generosity than I was at his copious coding.
>
> When 2.0.0 was released in 1996 there were 563104 lines of code in the
> .c files of the linux kernel. And 190 names were listed in the CREDITS
> file.
>
> So in 5 years of development there were about half a million lines of
> code written. That works out as 100000 lines of code per year.
> That is wrong though, since linux development has been speeding up.
> So what
> about 1.0?
>
> 1.0 was released in 1994 and contained 176318 lines of code.
> Your claim of
> 70% being written in the first two years is obviously
> completely false.
> If you new anything about linux you would realise this. At
> that stage 80
> names were in the CREDITS file.
Again, we are talking apples and oranges here. I am talking about code
writing, and you are talking about code releasing. Don't forget the
apple polishing that Torvalds always does. Checking over every single
line, time after time, indenting, reformatting, commenting,
uncommenting, recommenting. That's really what has been going on the
last several years. Once he wrote it, it took him a while to come to
terms with it.
>
> The reason there is so much code is because of the relatively
> recent porting
> effort. This has not been done by Linus. The last I heard was
> that Linus
> claimed to have written about 20% of the kernel code. This
> was before a
> major port though, and will have only gone down over time. Alan
> Cox is the
> major contributor at the moment.
Yes Alan, probably Torvalds most dearest and best friend. And certainly
Torvalds has rewarded him the most with his humility and generosity.
>
> >That would be a
> >first year rate of 700K per year. But that is debugged and tested and
> >kept code, versus all code, whether used or usable or not. I am just
> >talking about any old Perl code I would write to learn a
> > concept, which
> >comes out a much faster rate. Were it to be fully usable
> > and marketable
> >Perl code, I would estimate my rate at 20,000 per 10 day period
> > which is
> >very close to what Torvalds was putting out back in that first year,
> >when he had the excitement of starting out.
>
> Why do you keep making things up when they are easy to check.
Again, it is hard to check what they don't want revealed. Try and get in
on the Linux circle, then you'll find out what I am talking about.
>
> linux kernel v0.96c was released in 1992. So it reflects approximately
> one year of linux development. You claim it should be 700000
> lines of code.
> Well a line count on *.c files gives :
>
> 26708 lines of code.
>
> So you could single handedly do one year of development in two weeks?
>
> Instead of making stuff up and claiming it is fact why don't
> you do some
> research? Or can you just not accept that you have no
> idea what you are
> talking about.
My research is unparalled and can certainly not accept that I have no
idea what I am talking about.
>
> I'm counting tested and debugged code. Non-tested code is not
> code. It is
> random crap that doesn't work. I can write a million lines of
> code a day
> if it doesn't have to work.
Wow, you're much faster than me, and yet you doubt my speed. Go figure!
>
> 20,000 lines per ten day period would have compressed three
> years of kernel
> development into under 3 months. Do you have any idea what
> you are talking
> about?
I see exactly what you are getting at. Linux would have had fully
integrated rock-solid graphical front-end by now, had I been on board.
>
> If you would think about your numbers before basing arguments on them
> you may have more success.
I'm afraid that you have just given numbers ( "I can write a millions
lines of code a day....") that completely validate the numbers I have
been giving. In fact they make my figures look conservative. So, I
actually think that you are in agreement with me.
>
> >As far as those other studies, apparently they are including various
> >testers, managers, staff relatives and HR types in the
> > coding headcount.
> >That really lowers the numbers.
>
> How do you know? Did you check, or are you just making
> stuff up because it
> doesn't agree with your argument?
I have spoken to programmers, such as yourself, and their quoted
programming rates are far above your studies. That leads me to believe
someone is lying, and since it can't be you (million lines a day) it has
to be the statisticians.
>
> I know at least two of the studies I got my data from only included
> programmers. Why are you lieing?
You just admitted you could write a million lines of code a day. Why are
you touting these bogus studies?
>
> --
> Sam
>
> It was the damndest thing, the croc had Holden by the leg, but Sam
> was so wrapped up in his Programming Perl book that he never even
> looked up. I shot the critter before they got to the river but I
> always had to wonder if he would have tried to keep on reading >
underwater. - Crocodile Dundee
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Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:25:33 GMT
From: armchair@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Perl "constructors"
Message-Id: <7j5hm8$bak$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
In article <slrn7ksm80.fvf.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>,
sholden@cs.usyd.edu.au wrote:
> On Fri, 28 May 1999 06:43:06 GMT, armchair@my-deja.com wrote:
> >In article <7ibtsd$5qk$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > John Porter <jdporter@min.net> wrote:
> >> In article <7i5e9d$76$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> >> armchair@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> > But since you are, give me the percentage breakdown
> >> > on how Perl is being used (CGI-BIN, database scripts, sysadmin
> >> > functions) and what percentage of their time Perl programmers are
> >> > maintaing the code of others? And what is a typical size for a
Perl
> >> > program? How many people are using objects
> >> > exstensively? inheritance?
> >> > Is
> >> > the stuff on CPAN getting good usage at each site?
> >>
> >> Sorry, I don't know what the real numbers are.
> >> But I do know that your guess about what "most Perl programmers"
> >> have done was really arrogant.
> >
> >Without real numbers how could you know? Are we to go on your last
> >project as evidence of what most Perl programmers are doing? And what
of
> >your CPAN code usage and that of the five programmer who preceded you
on
> >your last project?
>
> That's a bit hypocritical coming from Mr 'Linus Torvalds
> wrote 700000 lines
> of linux code in two years'.
Please Sam, I said he wrote 700,000 in one year. Get your facts and
figures straight before posting.
>
> You can't criticise others for making statements without
> knowing the exact real numbers. At least they admit that,
> as opposed to just making some
> convenient numbers up as you like to do.
I am surprised that you would be touting facts and figures after you had
to admit that the studies you presented were way off base. You yourself
can code many orders of magnitude faster (1,000,000 lines per day of
untested code) than any of those slackers and their clip board carrying
friends.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:27:58 GMT
From: armchair@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: Perl "constructors"
Message-Id: <7j5hqp$bba$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
In article <slrn7l15ui.7ub.abigail@alexandra.delanet.com>,
abigail@delanet.com wrote:
> armchair@my-dejanews.com (armchair@my-dejanews.com) wrote on MMLXXXIV
> September MCMXCIII in <URL:news:7hmjed$o45$1@nnrp1.deja.com>:
> ""
> "" I have no problem using atoi() or atof() to convert between types.
>
> If you want C, you know where to get it.
When Perl 4 was the current version and someone mentioned objects was
that you who said:
"If you want Smalltalk, you know where to get it"
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Date: 12 Dec 98 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Dec 98)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
Well, after 6 months, here's the answer to the quiz: what do we do about
comp.lang.perl.moderated. Answer: nothing.
]From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
]Date: 21 Sep 1998 19:53:43 -0700
]Subject: comp.lang.perl.moderated available via e-mail
]
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