[11128] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4728 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Sat Jan 23 00:06:51 1999
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 21:00:17 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Fri, 22 Jan 1999 Volume: 8 Number: 4728
Today's topics:
ActiveState syntax variations? <hugh@cheesegrits.com>
Re: help?!: how to change a date to seconds since EPOCH (Mike Stok)
Re: How long would the Unixes last without Perl? dennis_marti@yahoo.com
humor: site for cheap crappy perl books <uri@home.sysarch.com>
Re: MSQL ordering-- derranged?? (brian d foy)
Passing array references. <om@republica.freeserve.co.uk>
Re: Perl Criticism (Sam Holden)
Re: Perl Criticism (Sam Holden)
Re: Perl Criticism <mds-resource@mediaone.net>
Re: Perl Criticism <mds-resource@mediaone.net>
Re: Perl Criticism <uri@home.sysarch.com>
Re: Perl Criticism (Sam Holden)
Re: Perl Criticism <uri@home.sysarch.com>
Re: Perl Criticism (Sam Holden)
Re: Perl Criticism (Sam Holden)
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism (Sam Holden)
Re: Perl Criticism (Sam Holden)
Re: Perl For Dummys <donnywi@yahoo.com>
Re: PERL Security Issues (brian d foy)
Profiling problems <achoy@us.oracle.com>
Samba access w/ perl ()
Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Dec 98 (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:24:22 -0600
From: "Hugh Messenger" <hugh@cheesegrits.com>
Subject: ActiveState syntax variations?
Message-Id: <5R4KfqnR#GA.230@newstoo.hiwaay.net>
I just ported some code from one version of ActiveState's NT perl to another
(from 5.005_02 to an older 5.003_07), and found that the behaviour of
embedding a my() declaration inside an if() statement is different. I'm
wondering if this is something which changed in Perl itself, or just between
ActiveState versions.
In the original code (on the newer version) I used shorthand like this for
splitting out fields of an input line, triggering the if() if I get the
correct split:
if (my($field1,$field2,$field3) = split(/;/,$line,3)) {
[...]
}
When I ported the code to the older version, the if() no longer triggered,
even though it seemed to be correctly splitting out the fields. I had to
change it to read:
my($field1,$field2,$field3);
if (($field1,$field2,$field3) = split(/;/,$line,3)) {
[...]
}
Can anyone explain what I did wrong? It's not desperately important, as I
fixed all the occurences of this syntax in my code, but I'd like to know
what's going on. I prefer the first version, but if it is not backward
compatible, I need to get in the habit of using the longer form.
-- hugh
--
Hugh Messenger
Internet Product Manager
Intergraph Computer Systems
http://www.intergraph.com/ics
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:36:16 -0600
From: mike@stok.co.uk (Mike Stok)
Subject: Re: help?!: how to change a date to seconds since EPOCH
Message-Id: <ehjjJGoR#GA.263@news1.texas.rr.com>
In article <01be4658$29ccb320$4b4bd683@tbp.11519.Teletechintl.com>,
Julian Kuiters <j.kuiters@bigpond.com(nospam)> wrote:
>
>Does anyone know the easiest way to convert a date back to seconds past
>EPOCH?
There are several modules which manipulate dates and times on CPAN (check
out http://www.perl.com/CPAN/ for a "nearby" mirror).
One example is Date::Parse from the TimeDate thing, using the debugger:
DB<1> use Date::Parse
DB<2> $timeval = str2time('31 Jan 1999')
DB<3> X timeval
$timeval = 917762400
DB<4> print scalar localtime $timeval
Sun Jan 31 00:00:00 1999
Hope this helps,
Mike
--
mike@stok.co.uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.
http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | PGP fingerprint FE 56 4D 7D 42 1A 4A 9C
| 65 F3 3F 1D 27 22 B7 41
stok@colltech.com | Collective Technologies (work)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:24:42 GMT
From: dennis_marti@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: How long would the Unixes last without Perl?
Message-Id: <78biu2$6u3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <78959p$bb@chronicle.concentric.net>,
"Phlip" <address@web.page> wrote:
> So rephrase my question as "how long would Unixes maintain or increase
> market share without Perl?"...
In the message that started this thread Phlip wrote:
>> Ever since Linux got me (not the other way around),
Sounds like you helped increase Unix market share. Why? Since perl is
available just about everywhere, it alone probably isn't the reason.
But if there were no perl (shudder), I'd rather be working on the
system that provided much of the inspiration for it.
Dennis
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jan 1999 23:25:18 -0500
From: Uri Guttman <uri@home.sysarch.com>
Subject: humor: site for cheap crappy perl books
Message-Id: <x7vhhyty35.fsf@home.sysarch.com>
check out this link. the page has perl misspelled as pearl (next
to a correct spelling). it also groups perl books with cgi ones.
http://www.door2net.com/half-price/menu_u6.html
that link leads to a list of books which has only 8 books with perl in
the title, none published after 1996. some of the books are well known
stinkers and the list prices are astounding (the "special edition" books
list at $50!!). my favorite title is "TEACH YOURSELF CGI PROGRAMMING
WITH PERL 5 IN A WEEK" for only $20. (note: lincoln stein's CGI.pm book can be
had for $18 at bookpool.com).
if you want to complete your collection of out of print crappy perl
books, here is your chance!
uri
--
Uri Guttman ----------------- SYStems ARCHitecture and Software Engineering
Perl Hacker for Hire ---------------------- Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
uri@sysarch.com ------------------------------------ http://www.sysarch.com
The Best Search Engine on the Net ------------- http://www.northernlight.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:44:14 -0500
From: comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
Subject: Re: MSQL ordering-- derranged??
Message-Id: <comdog-ya02408000R2201992244140001@news.panix.com>
In article <78bbkt$16f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, saul@umdnj.edu posted:
> I am using MSQL to handle some relatively simple database tasks and am at a
> complete loss in trying to get my results tables properly sorted. For a text
> field the MSQL ORDER BY qualifier works fine but when sorting records by Date
> fields or by _SEQ number the results seem essentially random. I access all
> results tables through a hash refrence. Has anyone else experienced this sort
> of difficulty?
perhaps you should check the mSQL web site for help, and if you can't
find it there, ask about it on the mSQL mailing list. there isn't any
Perl in this.
--
brian d foy
CGI Meta FAQ <URL:http://www.smithrenaud.com/public/CGI_MetaFAQ.html>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:35:00 -0000
From: "OM" <om@republica.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Passing array references.
Message-Id: <78bk2q$2i3$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>
How would I write a general function that takes two arguements, an array
reference, say $array, and a list of numbers, say @numbers (should I be
passing an array or a refernce here?).
What I then want to do in the function is to only print elements of the
array, as specified in the list of numbers.
I've tried it a few times, but can't seem to get anywhere.
It doesn't seem to like it when I try to give the subscript number directly,
i.e print $array[$numbers[0]] etc. or some other variation.
Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jan 1999 03:14:05 GMT
From: sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn7aifjt.9ar.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:21:51 GMT, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>In article <36a5c1a2.6439582@news.highwayone.net>,
> richardc@tw2.com (Richard Clamp) wrote:
>> Self policing works fine. With my management hat on I take offense
>> that you suggest I don't know how to manage programmers and
>> programming projects.
>
>
>I am not talking about your little corner of the world.
>I have witnessed hit-and-run programming at at least
>5 very different companies (large, small, fast, slow,
>gov, commercial, etc.)
>
>I am talking about the forest, not your tree.
You have experience in 5 companies... Many people have said that their
experience has been completely different. Most of those people have
probably had experience in at least 2 companies.
So you can give 5 companies (you don't mention names though so some will
not believe you). Others could probably give 30 companies where management
does there job, or the programmers at least have a brain and do code-reviews.
So your experience is the exception, and not a valid basis for criticising
the language.
You have still not shown one snippet of production code that is unreadable to
backup your case. Have a look at the perl scripts that come with various
linux distributions, and bioinformatics products (the two I can think of
off the top of my head) for readable perl code written by multiple authors...
>>
>> Please don't hi-jack 'cryptologists' to mean bad programmers.
>> Cryptology is a science which I have a great deal of respect for and
>> is not related to the symptom you ascribe Perl to be a cause of.
>
>
>I will stop as soon as I think of a better insultive word :-)
How about 'topmindists'. ;)
--
Sam
testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up it is
perfect.
--Linus Torvalds
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jan 1999 03:23:10 GMT
From: sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn7aig4u.9ar.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:30:12 GMT, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>In article <s7pvhi2mg43.fsf@windrush.elsevier.co.uk>,
> Piers Cawley <pdcawley@bofh.org.uk> wrote:
>> topmind@technologist.com writes:
>>
>> > In article <m3vhi32m1s.fsf@moiraine.dimensional.com>,
>> > Daniel Grisinger <dgris@moiraine.dimensional.com> wrote:
>> > > [I wasn't going to reply to this thread anymore, but couldn't
>> > > help myself]
>> > >
>> > > topmind@technologist.com writes:
>> > >
>> > > > Come on now. I switch between dozens of languages.
>> > >
>> > > Dozens? Really? I think that you are lying, please list them.
>> > > Include code samples (ability to write `hello, world' does not
>> > > count as knowing a language).
>> > >
>> >
>> > I have used Pascal, Java, VB, DEC-Basic, C, Xbase, Perl,
>> > Fortran, Transact-SQL, DOS scripting, and a few modem languages.
>>
>> Still not even vaguely 'dozens' now is it?
>
>
>Allright, you cought me. I should have said "many" or "a dozen".
>I never stopped to count before I wrote that. It was
>a "hit and run" reply.
>
>I apologize.
Some would call it lieing to back up an argument. Some would call it
exageration to back up an argument. Some would call it dishonest.
Also which of those languages have you used in the last 6 months and expect
to use again in the next 6 months? That would be the number of languages
you 'switch between'.
>
>>
>> > > > Do you all use only one language and/or always keep them strait?
>> > >
>> > > I regularly program in C, Java, Python, Lisp, Perl, and C++. I
>> > > have no difficulty keeping everything straight.
>> >
>> > 1. You should not extroplate your grand abilities to all others.
>> > (Keeping them strait may be admirable, but there are other criteria
>> ^^^^^^
>> > to judge people on.)
>>
>> You use that word a lot. I do not think it means what you think it
>> does. And judging by your other posts in this thread I got the
>> impression that you were arguing that Perl should be made strait. Or
>> are you conceding the point?
>
>
>
>I am only pointing out it's flaws as a general-purpose language.
>I would rather see a new language than a fixed Perl.
>
>BTW, why is it so important to have "more than one way"
>to write an IF statement? Variety || die?
That has already been explained in a long and detailed post. Maybe you should
try reading what others write.
Different forms of writing a simple 'do A if B' allow the author to put
the emphasis on the 'do' or the 'A' or the 'B'. This makes the code more
readable since there is more information given to the reader.
--
Sam
Basically, avoid comments. If your code needs a comment to be
understood, it would be better to rewrite it so it's easier to
understand. --Rob Pike
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:23:48 -0600
From: "Michael D. Schleif" <mds-resource@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <36A940C4.6ACF038F@mediaone.net>
OK, I've had a few beers tonight -- the temptation is irresistible!
topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>
> The newness of my listed ideas is *not* the issue. It is the evaluation
> and collection of the alternatives that I am focusing on.
Forgive me, Larry, for I am about to sin ;)
You know, mr. topmind, there comes a time in a cynic's life when the
world is immutable and the only way to express oneself is to create a
new language in which you express that which you find inexpressible in
the current tongue. It hasn't escaped me that that is probably how
Larry felt when he took the ultimate plunge and coded the first lines of
Perl. Clearly, the status quo did *not* include any programming
language close enough to Larry's ideals that he could _enhance_ that
source to do what he wanted to do. Nobody clamored onto his bandwagon,
then, to participate in setting the programming world right. All alone,
probably criticized constantly for his gall, he coded those first
several lines that have contributed to history. His was no pedantic
language that existed, and continues to exist, only in classrooms;
existing only to establish fundamental programming principles in bright
young coeds' minds. Rather, a Practical Extraction and Reporting
Language was designed with intent to get as many jobs done in the
shortest time possible. Yes, its purpose and original intent were clear
and concise. Subsequently, over the course of years (yeah, history --
what a bummer, huh?) Perl has taken on a life of its own. What does
that mean? Larry continues to lead the effort; but, thousands of users
throughout the known universe contribute ideas, modules, and (god, save
me) patches -- all participating in this newborn thing that is growing
up quite nicely without topmind's approval.
Is this to say that Perl is perfect and topmind is totally wrong? Not
at all! Just as it is unlikely that you will affect any substantive
changes to the English language, so shall you find that the Perl
community is unlikely to follow your suggestion to rewrite that which we
find, at least, workable.
Hence, mr. topmind, you face that dilemma faced father Larry more than
ten years ago. What will *you* do about it?
> "Sophisticated" and "good" are not necessarily the same.
> (Example: NT is more sophistated than Unix, ie,
> has more parts/code.)
sophisticated adj
1 : not in a natural, pure or original state
2 : deprived of native or original simplicity: as
a : highly complicated or developed
b : worldly-wise, knowing
3 : devoid of grossness: as
a : finely experienced and aware
b : intellectually appealing
Please, mr. topmind, if you insist on carrying on discourse in your own
nomenclature, please, please, define your terms *prior* to running off
at the mouth }:-^
A very wise man once said, ``We encourage you to develop the three great
virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris.'' You have
these qualities, to an extreme, at the expense of participating in
reality.
Should you strike out on your own to write the perfect programming
language, when you have examples to illustrate the errors of our ways,
please, be so kind as to return to this venue and curry our favor.
In the meantime, go have a beer -- it's done wonders for my disposition
tonight . . .
--
Best Regards,
mds
mds resource
888.250.3987
"Dare to fix things before they break . . . "
"Our capacity for understanding is inversely proportional to how much we
think we know. The more I know, the more I know I don't know . . . "
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:32:11 -0600
From: "Michael D. Schleif" <mds-resource@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <36A942BB.769DC10F@mediaone.net>
I can do that }:-^
topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>
> In article <78a4cl$h97$2@newshost.oracle.co.uk>,
> dherriot@uk.oracle.com (Des Herriott) wrote:
>
> > It's possible to write unmaintainable code in any language.
>
> If I hear this flippen' MYTH stated one more time, I am going to
> have Norton classify Perl as a virus.
It's possible to write unmaintainable code in any language.
There, that felt immeasurably better. Hear ye, hear ye, Norton has a
new virus. Na-nah-na-nah-na-nah ...
One last note: unmaintainable code is being written as we waste time
discoursing -- and there's no blasted thing you nor anybody can do about
that!
--
Best Regards,
mds
mds resource
888.250.3987
"Dare to fix things before they break . . . "
"Our capacity for understanding is inversely proportional to how much we
think we know. The more I know, the more I know I don't know . . . "
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jan 1999 22:42:43 -0500
From: Uri Guttman <uri@home.sysarch.com>
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <x73e52vemk.fsf@home.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "t" == topmind <topmind@technologist.com> writes:
t> In article <x7u2xmv444.fsf@home.sysarch.com>,
t> Uri Guttman <uri@home.sysarch.com> wrote:
t> My claim is that most of the twistability in Perl can be eliminated
t> without a great loss of productivity. If I provide an example,
t> someone would eventually find a different way to do it and say
t> "but you did not have to do it that way."
well show us the code. just once, post some actual godfuckingdamn
code. you have not posted 1 single character of legal perl code. not 1!!
t> Are you saying that you cannot take the challenge I gave?
t> Regardless of my actions or alleged failings, you
t> have failed the test. Rather than fuss over the
t> source of the test, just take the darned test.
what challenge? to correct your misbegotten views. i am not here to do
that. we have no problem with your thinking perl can be saved. you are
the minister of programming and perl is a sinner of languages. let us
pray tpgether that all of perl's followers can be washed of their
sins. (i just saw the apostle on cable :-).
t> Seen your way, I am one person who failed. However,
t> yous are many people who failed.
yous? whose yous dos yous means? i don't consider myself or perl or the
perl community a failure. it is the language which holds the web and
much of the net together.
t> Where is it stated that only Perl lovers can come here?
t> (P.S. I am not a Perl hater, dispite the heat in here.)
nowhere. but you have to talk the language itself which you consistantly
refuse to do. you babble about your theories as if they came from god
(there goes that analogy again) and we must be converted. well, bub,
maybe you are wrong. your religion could be barking up the wrong
god. you cannot save anyone from themselves via religion, legislation or
programming restrictions. that has been proven many time by hundreds or
thousands of each. humankind will always find a way to screw up. live
with it.
t> I have refuted this "equal abusability" claim several
t> times in detail. You have not addressed
t> the details of my refutation.
equal mean nothing. at any given level of restriction, you screw up at
that level so stop the quest for the holy grail of languages. it is
futile and you will just die an unhappy idiot. oh, you are one now? so
won't you please die for us? or at least leave this group already.
t> Lump all things you hate together. Typical of humans.
and you are above being human? oh, i forgot, you are the emissary of
god's programming language. call it genesis, and bottomind said let ther
be no flexibilty, andonly one way of doing anything. no pointers,
references, structures, objects, etc. we will all cross the jordan
writing cobol and fortran for ever and ever, amen!!
boy that movie sure affected me and i am jewish!
say amen bottommind, say amen!!
uri
--
Uri Guttman ----------------- SYStems ARCHitecture and Software Engineering
Perl Hacker for Hire ---------------------- Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
uri@sysarch.com ------------------------------------ http://www.sysarch.com
The Best Search Engine on the Net ------------- http://www.northernlight.com
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jan 1999 03:45:22 GMT
From: sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn7aihei.9ar.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:46:45 GMT, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>In article <slrn7aaojq.sbd.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>,
> sholden@cs.usyd.edu.au wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> So far that is not even one dozen let alone 'dozens'...
>>
>
>I stand corrected, as described in another message.
>
>
>> [...]
>> I don't see much venture into the functional, logical, and concurrent
>> worlds in your list either...
>>
>
>I am not sure what you mean here.
Well knowing C, Pascal, basic, etc is all very well but they are all
procedural languages. I don't see much difference between C and Pascal,
C lets you do 'unsafe' things whereas in Pascal you have to resort to
add-ons to the language to do those things. This is because those
unsafe things are actually extremely useful, and often needed for certain
applications. But when it is all said and done C and Pascal are more alike
than different...
Lisp is a functional language. Completely different from C and Pascal.
Prolog is a logical language. Completely different from C and Lisp.
Alef is a concurrent language. Completely different from Lisp and C (though
the syntax is similar (as you would expect))...
Smalltalk is an OO language. Completely different from C and Lisp.
etc,etc,etc....
This is all irrelevant though. I only mentioned it earlier because you
called someone elses 'world' of languages small, when it seemed to have
as much exposure as yours, just not as many languages in each type...
As the sig says below (sortof), perl combines concepts from different types...
procedural, functional, OO, and I odn't know what else...
--
Sam
Perl was designed to be a mess (though in the nicest of possible ways).
--Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jan 1999 22:47:21 -0500
From: Uri Guttman <uri@home.sysarch.com>
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <x7zp7atzue.fsf@home.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "t" == topmind <topmind@technologist.com> writes:
t> You guys are kind of controdicting each other. Some
t> claim I am falsely taking credit for existing (implemented)
t> ideas, and others are chewing me out for not implimenting
t> them.
your just proving how smallminded (sic) you are. those are not
contradictory. stealing ideas about languages and espousing a hodgepodge
of them and the end all philosophy is one thing, and implementing that
pile of junk into an actual runnable system is another. you have done
the former and not (and never will) the latter.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ----------------- SYStems ARCHitecture and Software Engineering
Perl Hacker for Hire ---------------------- Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
uri@sysarch.com ------------------------------------ http://www.sysarch.com
The Best Search Engine on the Net ------------- http://www.northernlight.com
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jan 1999 03:55:24 GMT
From: sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn7aii1c.9ar.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>
[Posted and Mailed - since I think it's serious enough...]
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:51:11 GMT, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>In article <slrn7aa95v.mma.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>,
> sholden@cs.usyd.edu.au wrote:
>
>>> ... I mix a few things up when I swap from one language to another
>
>(especially from c++ to c - those // comments get me every time). However, I
>can honestly say I've never had a bug in some code that was caused by using a
>construct from a different language in code - compile errors yes, but not a
>bug. <<
>
>
>Ah, we are finally starting to get a little honesty now.
Please tell me when I have lied, or been dishonest in this 'duscussion'.
I really want to know or do you just accuse people of unfounded things,
the way you appear to accuse languages of them...
Note I have said in this thread that you were dishonest...
You said it was a mistake and that you seriously thought you
knew dozens of languages (ie 24 or more programming languages). I find that
a little unbelievable and think you exagerated. So there's my reason for
calling you less than honest, I can back it up. I may be wrong, but I am not
just making things up.
So when was I dishonest?
>
>There were times when I put one equal sign instead of 2, and
>the compiler/interpreter saw it as a "leaky assignment"
>instead of a boolean. Still, compiler errors are annoying.
You implied it was a serious problem, I said it was not. I do not count using
the wrong comment when I return to a language after a month or three as a
serious problem. It only happens a few times in the first few days anyway...
I do not see it as a fault of the language. I do not see it as a problem
with having '=' and '==' both be valid operators.
--
Sam
Just don't create a file called -rf. :-)
--Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jan 1999 03:57:35 GMT
From: sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn7aii5f.9ar.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:04:52 GMT, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>In article <fl_aggie-2201991027510001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>,
> fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie) wrote:
>> In article <78a30e$sds$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, droby@copyright.com wrote:
>>
>> + Basically, NIST decided in the mid 1980's to require all government
>machines
>> + to have an OSI network stack. Such was pretty much unavailable, as OSI
>> + existed only on paper. It was quite a bit of paper, but there was no real
>> + implementation.
>>
>> Ah, that explain's topmind's experience with large, detailed projects, and
>> his insistence that "implementation doesn't matter".
>
>
>I did not say that it did *not* matter, I am just saying that
>you are overemphasing it in an apperant attempt to discredit
>or rid me.
>
>All good ideas and bad ideas started out as ideas.
>
>You guys are kind of controdicting each other. Some
>claim I am falsely taking credit for existing (implemented)
>ideas, and others are chewing me out for not implimenting
>them.
However, you are trying to combine ideas together in what is possibly a
different way. The best way to see if it is really useful is to implement
it and see. There is no contradiction that I can see anyway...
>
>Make up your friggen minds (P.S. "friggen" is not a cuss word)
That would depend upon where you are.
--
Sam
Just don't create a file called -rf. :-)
--Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:56:34 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78bh9e$5rk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <slrn7aaojq.sbd.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>,
sholden@cs.usyd.edu.au wrote:
> [...]
> How you could study perl 'intensly' and not know about little things
> like CPAN is a bit beyond me... but benefit of the doubt and all that.
Unfortunately, my study materials did not cover every topic. Note that I took
a test with an IT contracting agency about a year ago and they said I scored
"above average" on the Perl test.
Besides, CPAN is a side topic, and a lot of languages have informal libraries,
user groups, clubs, etc.
-tmind-
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jan 1999 04:14:55 GMT
From: sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn7aij5v.9ar.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:11:27 GMT, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>> It's possible to write unmaintainable code in any language.
>
>If I hear this flippen' MYTH stated one more time, I am going to
>have Norton classify Perl as a virus.
OK back that up, what language is it impossible to write unmaintainable code
in. Point me to a freely available interpreter/compiler and the language
docs and I'm willing to have a crack at the impossible and write some
unmaintainable code.
>
>ALL
>LANGUAGES
>ARE
>NOT
>EQUALLY
>ABUSABLE
>!!!!!!!
That is not what the post claimed, that is irrelevant.
All that should matter is 'does the language make it hard to write maintainable
code'. If so then don't use the damn language for 'real' code.
>I am not going to explain it again.
Could you please post a reference to your first explanation... since I
for one missed it (this thread is huge and I haven't attempted to read
everything in it - thankfully).
>> I've
>> written plenty Perl in my time, and haven't had a complaint about
>> maintainability from my colleagues yet, because in 'production' code, I
>> make a considerable effort to avoid obfuscation.
>>
>
>
>Extrapolation Alert!
But if someone doesn't make an effort to avoid obfuscation (that's the wrong
phrase really, should be something along the lines write readable code - the
positive not negative version) then they should not be employed as a
programmer.
It's perfectly possible to burn down a house by attempting to rewire it.
That's why people that can't do it safely shouldn't be employed as
electricians.
The tool (programming language in this case) shouldn't strive to make it
impossible to do all bad things. It should strive to make it easy to do
good things.
Perl does prevent you from doing some 'bad things' (unless you use another
langauge to write an extension but that is out of perl's hands), just as
a crushing machine s designed to try to prevent the operator from falling
in. Perl does not stop you from doing all bad things, just as the crushing
machine doesn't prevent someone from throwing someone else into it (since
you might very well want to crush a person sized box or whatever).
I'm sure if you try hard enough you can work around perl's attempt to stop
you doing some bad things (overwriting the memory space of the interpreter
itself for example), just as if the operator really wants to, he can get
himself crushed by the machine.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Make the good easy to do and you
won't have to worry about people doing the bad...
--
Sam
Even if you aren't in doubt, consider the mental welfare of the person
who has to maintain the code after you, and who will probably put parens
in the wrong place. --Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jan 1999 04:31:38 GMT
From: sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn7aik59.9ar.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:56:34 GMT, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>In article <slrn7aaojq.sbd.sholden@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au>,
> sholden@cs.usyd.edu.au wrote:
>> [...]
>> How you could study perl 'intensly' and not know about little things
>> like CPAN is a bit beyond me... but benefit of the doubt and all that.
>
>Unfortunately, my study materials did not cover every topic. Note that I took
>a test with an IT contracting agency about a year ago and they said I scored
>"above average" on the Perl test.
>
>Besides, CPAN is a side topic, and a lot of languages have informal libraries,
>user groups, clubs, etc.
CPAN is not a side topic, the modules that it provides are what makes perl
such a useful language. If perl didn't have all that wonderful reusable
code then I'd have to do much more work myself, and I consider that a
bad thing.
If anyone when given a 'task' to do in perl, doesn't go and see if it is
already done and available at CPAN they are foolish (or the task is so
simple it's quicker to do it yourself, or the task is so interesting
they want to do it themselves). If they don't know about and how to use
CPAN then you are missing out on one of the major things that makes perl
such a useful language.
Test scores are meaningless. I've got a degree in 'Pure Mathematics' from
a real fair-dinkum university, but I don't claim to have any real
knowledge about pure mathematics. My test scores are meaningless since I
learnt what I needed to for the tests and that was all. I do claim to
know a little about computer science, that's on my degree as well, but the
degree is not why I claim to have the knowledge, it's because I've been
doing computer science things for long enough to know something.
Anyway I should hope you scored 'above average' I wouldn't want to be at the
level of the average IT person...
--
Sam
testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up it is
perfect.
--Linus Torvalds
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:41:16 -0600
From: Donny Widjaja <donnywi@yahoo.com>
To: springnr@home*com
Subject: Re: Perl For Dummys
Message-Id: <36A952EB.51490903@yahoo.com>
My sugesstion is : "Learning Perl" 2nd edition. By Randal L. Schwartz and
Tom Christiansen.
Click here
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565922840/microsoftimageco to
order it on-line from Amazon.com. You save 20%. :)
BloodStone wrote:
> I am starting to learn Perl I was wondering what is the best book to
> buy for newbies. I would like a very simple explanation because I want
> to make sure that I understand the basics before I get into heavy
> stuff. TIA!
>
> P.s. Also if you know any really good sites that fit the above please
> send them along too..thanks...
>
> BloodStone
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:47:33 -0500
From: comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
Subject: Re: PERL Security Issues
Message-Id: <comdog-ya02408000R2201992247330001@news.panix.com>
In article <36a7a340.94710905@news.xtra.co.nz>, nick.smith@team.xtra.co.nz (Nick Smith) posted:
> I am preparing a document that relates to the security issues
> pertaining to hosting PERL enabled websites on a webserver. Could any
> of you either email me or point me to a reference that contains an
> exhaustive guide re: PERL Scripting Security issues?
there are many such resources in the CGI Meta FAQ. however, it's
usually the programmer, not the language, that is the problem.
--
brian d foy
CGI Meta FAQ <URL:http://www.smithrenaud.com/public/CGI_MetaFAQ.html>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:53:08 -0800
From: Allen Choy <achoy@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Profiling problems
Message-Id: <36A947A3.C2396BA4@us.oracle.com>
I'm getting garbled data errors when I use the Devel::DProf module.
Anyone know
how I can find out where in my code is causing the problem?
thanks--Allen
------------------------------
Date: 23 Jan 1999 03:31:26 GMT
From: hdiwan@diwanh.stu.rpi.edu ()
Subject: Samba access w/ perl
Message-Id: <slrn7aigic.8ge.hdiwan@diwanh.stu.rpi.edu>
Keywords: SAMBA samba search network windows mapping
We have a samba network here. I would like to make it more convenient for this
organization to find things on it. Are there perl modules allowing me to access
SMB shares using Perl. What I plan to do, is scan every share and list the
files and then implement a scan of them based on user input from a webform.
--
Hasan Diwan
------------------------------
Date: 12 Dec 98 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Dec 98)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
Well, after 6 months, here's the answer to the quiz: what do we do about
comp.lang.perl.moderated. Answer: nothing.
]From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
]Date: 21 Sep 1998 19:53:43 -0700
]Subject: comp.lang.perl.moderated available via e-mail
]
]It is possible to subscribe to comp.lang.perl.moderated as a mailing list.
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]body. Majordomo will then send you instructions on how to confirm your
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The Perl-Users Digest is a retransmission of the USENET newsgroup
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 4728
**************************************
