[11023] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4623 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Jan 11 21:17:16 1999
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 18:00:20 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 11 Jan 1999 Volume: 8 Number: 4623
Today's topics:
Re: Active State package questions (Charles Wilt)
Re: ashamed? [was Re: Perl Criticism] topmind@technologist.com
Getting program to restart (HUP) more than once (Alastair)
Re: Getting program to restart (HUP) more than once (Fluffy)
Re: Getting program to restart (HUP) more than once (Alastair)
multi threaded perl on AIX (Rob Frohwein)
Re: Perl 5.0005_02 fails "make test", db-btree and db-h (Randy Kobes)
Re: Perl Criticism <tripp.lilley@perspex.com>
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus))
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus))
Re: Perl Criticism (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus))
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Reading a file problem (John )
So ... Now what do I do?... <euclid@crl.com>
URGENT: Array of arrays... (The Corruptor)
Win32 Apache Web Site... Updated URL... win32apacheguy@my-dejanews.com
Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Dec 98 (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 12 Jan 1999 00:30:05 GMT
From: charles.0272@worldnet.no.spam.att.net (Charles Wilt)
Subject: Re: Active State package questions
Message-Id: <MPG.1104656dfc763f9b9896be@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
In article <369A6F8E.523E6FE7@us.ibm.com>, ludlow@us.ibm.com says...
> Brian Lavender wrote:
>
> > Where do I find what modules have been compiled into packages for the PPM
> > (Perl Package Manager)? I can't find a list on the http://www.ActiveState.com
>
> http://www.activestate.com/packages/zips/
>
>
James,
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I have been wondering how I could
install ActiveState Packages on two of my PC's that don't have Internet
access. How did you find this? I could find no mention of it in the
manuals or on the web site.
--
Charles Wilt
Miami Luken, Inc.
e-mail: charles.0272@worldnet.no.spam.att.net
--->remove the no.spam.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:04:58 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: ashamed? [was Re: Perl Criticism]
Message-Id: <77e3j8$j63$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <77d5nm$nbq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
dturley@pobox.com wrote:
> Am I the only one who noticed that topmind's defenses to his views pretty much
> have denegrated into name calling? I also wonder why he hides behind some
> AOL-like moniker. He has strong opinions, but they don't appear to be ones he
> wants to sign his name to.
>
> Looking at the bright side, I found many of the responses to be very
> educational.
I have increased name calling as a response to the flames;
however, there are plenty of details that you whimps are
not taking on.
I AM NOT AFRAID OF DETAILS AND EXPLICIT EXAMPLES.
(I can't promise I will understand all examples from
some specific language, but with enough comments
I will take on the contruct.)
-tmind-
>
> ____________________________________
> David Turley
> dturley@pobox.com
> http://www.binary.net/dturley/
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:10:26 GMT
From: alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk (Alastair)
Subject: Getting program to restart (HUP) more than once
Message-Id: <slrn79l4oi.73.alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk>
I would be grateful if someone could help with this. I am writing a program that
installs a signal handler or two. One signal I want to catch is a 'hang-up'
(HUP) signal. The program does catch the HUP and restart correctly, but will
only do this once. It then ignores any subsequent HUP.
I assume this is something to do with the 'exec' to restart. Is the handler not
getting re-installed after the exec of the program? This is a test program that
exhibits this behaviour (tried on linux and irix) ;
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
my $P = '/ext1/people/alastair/dev/perl/daemon/ddd';
$SIG{HUP} = \&hup_handler;
sub hup_handler {
$SIG{HUP} = \&hup_handler;
print "Restart ...\n";
exec $P or die "Cannot exec: $!";
}
my $i = 0;
while (1) {
print ">> ",$i++,"\n";
sleep 1;
}
Any help would be appreciated.
--
Alastair
work : alastair@psoft.co.uk
home : alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jan 1999 00:23:37 GMT
From: meowing@banet.net (Fluffy)
Subject: Re: Getting program to restart (HUP) more than once
Message-Id: <slrn79l5g0.2vh.meowing@meowhost.meow.invalid>
Alastair <alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I would be grateful if someone could help with this. I am writing a
> program that installs a signal handler or two. One signal I want to
> catch is a 'hang-up' (HUP) signal. The program does catch the HUP and
> restart correctly, but will only do this once. It then ignores any
> subsequent HUP.
perldoc perlipc, and search for the word 'loathe' . Non-BSD systems
generally make you reset the signal handler each time it gets
triggered.
Be careful here -- on systems that *do* leave the handler in place (I
know for sure FreeBSD has problems with this), repeatedly calling and
resetting a signal handler in Perl can bring on massively ugly memory
leaks.
--
"Meow." --me
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:31:21 GMT
From: alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk (Alastair)
Subject: Re: Getting program to restart (HUP) more than once
Message-Id: <slrn79l9g8.73.alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk>
Fluffy <meowing@banet.net> wrote:
>
>perldoc perlipc, and search for the word 'loathe' . Non-BSD systems
>generally make you reset the signal handler each time it gets
>triggered.
Thanks for the reply.
I have actually looked at as much as I could find on this subject, including
perlipc, the cookbook and the camel. I thought I was doing a handler reset
inside the handler itself (I see the 'loathe' comments and considered myself
'paranoid' - see pages 588-589 of the cookbook).
I've obviously a lot of learn here.
Is my signal handler blocked with the exec?
The following code works i.e. resets at each HUP (but does not 'restart' the
actual program itself) ;
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
my $hup = 0;
sub hup_handler {
$hup = 1;
}
$SIG{HUP} = \&hup_handler;
my $i = 0;
while (1) {
if ($hup) {
print "Restart ...\n";
$hup = 0;
$i = 0;
}
print ">> ",$i++,"\n";
sleep 1;
}
I'd rather re-exec the whole program (and be able to consistently).
Thanks.
--
Alastair
work : alastair@psoft.co.uk
home : alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:44:45 GMT
From: frohwein@infotech.nl (Rob Frohwein)
Subject: multi threaded perl on AIX
Message-Id: <77d6fe$quj$2@beta.infotech.nl>
Keywords: threads aix
Who has been able to build a multi threaded perl version on AIX ?
I used AIX version 4.2.1.0 on a powerpc and perl5_005_02.
The makefile seems to forget a number of libraries.
frohwein@infotech.nl
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jan 1999 01:21:32 GMT
From: randy@theory.uwinnipeg.ca (Randy Kobes)
Subject: Re: Perl 5.0005_02 fails "make test", db-btree and db-hash tests
Message-Id: <slrn79l9et.a5u.randy@theory.uwinnipeg.ca>
On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:37:31 -0800, Rob Tanner <rtanner@linfield.edu> wrote:
>I built Perl 5.0005_02 on Salaris 2.6 and ran "make test". Everything is
>okay except db-btree.t #36 and db-hash.t #31. In both cases, what is
>being tested is the R_NOOVERWRITE flag. No idea what's causing the
>problem. I presume I've either misconfigured something or am missing some
>library on the Solaris box.
Hi,
That was a problem with some earlier versions of DB_File (eg, 1.60),
caused by a non-backwards incompatability introduced in later versions
of Berkeley DB (eg, 2.5.9). Grab the latest DB_File from
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/id/PMQS/
or, if you need the new features in Berkeley DB 2.x, grab the
BerkeleyDB module from the same CPAN directory.
--
Best regards,
Randy Kobes
Physics Department Phone: (204) 786-9399
University of Winnipeg Fax: (204) 774-4134
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3B 2E9 e-mail: randy@theory.uwinnipeg.ca
Canada http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:48:58 -0500
From: Tripp Lilley <tripp.lilley@perspex.com>
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <369A8DEA.50D1AA27@perspex.com>
> topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> > Nobody ever really countered my OOP criticism. They simply insulted
> > me personally or chewed me out for "not keeping the faith
> > that OOP will ONE DAY pay off when average programmers learn
> > it better."
As with all things, you will get average results when you use average
people. /Nothing/ makes an average programmer a great programmer except
practice.
and Jerome O'Neil wrote:
> I consider this thread a "peer review" of your "objective study." You
> have clearly not met the bar. Perhaps next term.
He's not met the bar, indeed. He's smashed headlong into it at full trot.
Poor guy. A knot that size is going to smart in the morning.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:10:23 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e3td$jcp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <778i6s$dr$1@gellyfish.btinternet.com>,
Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 20:52:58 GMT topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> > In article <369687C1.7F6C9A58@atrieva.com>,
> > Jerome O'Neil <jeromeo@atrieva.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> This guy is too danged amusing to killfile. He's like one of those
> >> blow-up clowns that just keeps getting back up.
> >>
> >
> > Because I am FRICKEN RIGHT!!!
> >
>
> I think that you missed a comma out there Mr Fricken.
>
> > Nobody ever really countered my OOP criticism. They simply insulted
> > me personally or chewed me out for "not keeping the faith
> > that OOP will ONE DAY pay off when average programmers learn
> > it better."
> >
>
> No nobody ever countered your OOP criticism because it, as is your criticism
> of Perl, was based in your ignorant prejudice and your blinkered view
> of the way that language (and conceptual) development occurs in the
> real world, there is no countering arguments such as yours because your
> argument like Jerome say is just like 'one of those blow-up clowns that
> just keeps getting back up'. *We* could read you the entire Perl manual
> and all of the transactions on the p5p mailing list and you'd still be
> spouting your ridiculous objections to the way that Perl has been developed.
>
How Perl *was* developed is water under the bridge and irrelavent.
Let's talk about how Perl is NOW!
> > Nobody cited any peer-reviewed, objective study that
> > showed OOP was better.
>
> Consider your views about Perl to have been peer reviewed.
No, but that makes us on equal footing. Me: 0, OOP: 0
It's a tie! Wow!
> ....
> Jonathan Stowe <jns@btinternet.com>
> Some of your questions answered:
> <URL:http://www.btinternet.com/~gellyfish/resources/wwwfaq.htm>
> Hastings: <URL:http://www.newhoo.com/Regional/UK/England/East_Sussex/Hastings>
>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:16:26 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e48o$jqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <369A3382.7E06766@atrieva.com>,
Jerome O'Neil <jeromeo@atrieva.com> wrote:
> ...
> I consider this thread a "peer review" of your "objective study." You
> have clearly not met the bar. Perhaps next term.
>
This thread aint no objective review. It would be like
an athiest walking into a synagog and asking for
approval.
It is funny how the OOP croud ridiculed me for factoring in
the amount of typing needed in a language, and the Perl croud
ridiculed me for not ranking it high enough.
What one is chewed out for depends on where they go.
I used to take it personally until I saw all the
contradictions in the yellers.
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/
> --
> Jerome O'Neil, Operations and Information Services
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:26:46 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e4s3$kar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <778lr0$jb$1@gellyfish.btinternet.com>,
Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:29:55 GMT topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> >
> > Perl is fine for ad-hoc emmergancy programming, but not
> > for long-term applications that must be read and changed
> > by many.
> >
>
> I cant believe that you have the gall to make such a ludicrous statement
> as that (actually looking back at this thread I can see how you might
> have ) - do you have *any* idea what you are talking about ? You have
> made ridiculous claims regarding research right through this thread and
> now you make a claim that demonstrates perfectly that you probably havent
> even looked at a *single* resource to discover to what purposes Perl is
> put.
What it *is* put to and what it *should be* put to
are two very different arguments. Again, you guys are
putting words in my mouth.
I made no claim about what Perl is *actually* used for.
(Like I said before, one can write video games in COBOL,
but that does not mean it is the best tool for it.)
For a group that gets on my case for allegidly having
bad facts, you are not an example of the opposite.
> Perl is used for things that you probably havent got the slightest
> idea about - I would like you to look at the history of the module CGI.pm
> and its predecessor cgi-lib.pl and I would like you to take note of what
> areas their respective authors were working in. I and many other people
> here no doubt would also like you to come into work with them on monday
> morning to see how Perl is enabling them to deliver critical services
> to hundreds of thousands of customers everyday.
>
> I would suggest that you have neither developed nor maintained a working
> system otherwise you wouldnt continue to raise these pathetic objections
> to a programming language that enables thousands of programmers to do
> just that.
>
> /J\
>
> --
> Jonathan Stowe <jns@btinternet.com>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:44:02 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e5si$kvu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
[Re: all languages equally abusable]
> The same is true of most languages. The dichotomy you're presenting is
> not one that many of us agree with, so your challenge doesn't mean
> anything to us.
How can you say that? I went to great lengths to
explain why I disagree with this in my "atomic"
vs. "subatomic" abuse discussion.
How can you say that all languages are *equally* abusable?
Do you have any arguments or examples besides an internal
opinion?
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:37:10 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e5fl$kqp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <yllnjc82hs.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>,
Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote:
> topmind <topmind@technologist.com> writes:
>
> > I challenged someone to show me why Perl's power cannot be cleaned up
> > without significant (initial) productivity loss. I have not seen any
> > yet.
>
> Perhaps because many of us believe that, like nearly all programming
> languages, Perl is as "clean" as the programmer wishes it to be. You can
> write clean Perl and you can write obfuscated Perl, things like my sig.
> My production code doesn't look anything at *all* like my signature, and
> if someone tried to do something like that in a production script, I'd
> have a long talk with them.
>
> The same is true of most languages. The dichotomy you're presenting is
> not one that many of us agree with, so your challenge doesn't mean
> anything to us.
>From my webpage:
"There is a saying in the Unix community that one should not prevent idiots
from abusing something because it may prevent someone else from making good
use of it. In other words, give everyone chain-saws because (hopefully) more
people will build useful things than the number who will damage something or
someone. However, it is my observation that more programmers are more likely
to abuse a language than make good use of it. This is usually because the
incentive to finish fast is greater (and easier to measure) than the
incentive to make coherent and maintainable systems. Thus, I unfortunately
have to disagree with the "Unix Chain-saw" rule."
In short, I don't trust other programmers any more
than I trust automechanics. There is no decent feedback
loop to punish bad programmers who can deliver short-term
results at the expense of maintanable code.
Also, I still believe in the idea that 80% of Perl's power can
be kept without the holes of abusability left in it.
This is my main goal, not to bash Perl. Some of you are
taking this personally.
>
> --
> #!/usr/bin/perl -- Russ Allbery, Just Another Perl Hacker
> $^=q;@!>~|{>krw>yn{u<$$<[~||<Juukn{=,<S~|}<Jwx}qn{<Yn{u<Qjltn{ > 0gFzD gD,
> 00Fz, 0,,( 0hF 0g)F/=, 0> "L$/GEIFewe{,$/ 0C$~> "@=,m,|,(e 0.), 01,pnn,y{
> rw} >;,$0=q,$,,($_=$^)=~y,$/ C-~><@=\n\r,-~$:-u/ #y,d,s,(\$.),$1,gee,print
>
^
YEOOOOOOOOOWWWWW!
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:19:31 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e4eg$jro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <slrn79ggu1.cjr.dformosa@godzilla.zeta.org.au>,
dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
> In article <778gcs$ufi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> >In article <394sq15r2v.fsf@ibnets.com>,
> [...]
>
> >...when managers realize all those hit-and-run Perl hackers generated
> >nothing but spehgetti code that requires a $120 per hour consultant
> >to figuire out, then Perl will be tossed away, known as the
> >language that made Goto's look good.
> >
> >@_(-->$/(.)/up/Your*$s\\|>you&%!$@#crypt=++||#@tol<>>??logists!@#
>
> Thats not valid perl.
>
But I bet it is only a few keystrokes away from being runnable.
-tmind-
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:51:27 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e6ae$ldp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <3698f854.191578@news.skynet.be>,
bart.lateur@skynet.be (Bart Lateur) wrote:
> topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>
> >My goal is not to find the obsure, un-resume-able language,
> >but to promote a good common standard that does not have
> >the stupidity of the past.
>
> You've lost me, pal.
>
> I think "I've been dabbling with CAML" would look better on a resume
> than "I've been bashing Perl".
I will not put my bashing on my resume. I am not quite that stupid.
Besides, I am actually complimenting Perl many times in my webpage.
I am pointing out both the good and the bad (as I see it).
>
> You cannot possibly expect to change the basics of Perl, and expect it
> to be the same language. It wouldn't be Perl any more.The derivation
> would be "one of those obscure languages" again.
I hope not. I hope the result will be something that has learned
from the best and worst of the past and therefore is optimized
for both power and abuse-protection, and take off because of it.
>
> Anyway, that's how *I* found Perl, Python and TCL, more than 5 years
> ago. They weren't the "hot items" then. Funny how my preferences of that
> time eventually made it into popularity...
>
> Bart.
>
You should have bought stocks intead, then you would not
need ANY language :-)
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jan 1999 01:05:49 GMT
From: dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus))
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn79l7vd.mtj.dformosa@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
In article <77e4eg$jro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>In article <slrn79ggu1.cjr.dformosa@godzilla.zeta.org.au>,
> dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
>> In article <778gcs$ufi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
[...]
>> >@_(-->$/(.)/up/Your*$s\\|>you&%!$@#crypt=++||#@tol<>>??logists!@#
>>
>> Thats not valid perl.
>
>But I bet it is only a few keystrokes away from being runnable.
How much?
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
How to win arguments on usenet http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/usenet.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:00:43 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e6rq$lth$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <slrn79gjpn.cjr.dformosa@godzilla.zeta.org.au>,
dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
> In article <778jci$16h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> >In article <slrn79adli.mcd.dformosa@godzilla.zeta.org.au>,
> > dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> I think that you should have done a little bit of study into languge
> >> thory. At least enougth to use the correct terms for a number of the
> >> features/options.
> >>
> >
> >Language design is more about Pshycology than math. After all,
> >computer languages are an INTERFACE between humans and computers.
> >It is the HUMAN side that is the tough part.
>
> Dose this non sequitur supposed to mean anything? The thory of
> languages and there design is now a quite rich one. If you wish to
> learn from others mistakes, (as you claim that you wish to do) a study
> into this field of CS would do you a world of good.
>
> Such a study would include the Pshycologial aspects as well as the
> mathmatical. In addtion it would equip you with the vocaburary so
> that when you express a concept outhers would understand what you are
> talking about.
>
It is my opinion that most of the academic types who write
those papers do very little typical, real world work.
(I used to dig around in image-processing research papers
and saw a lot of side topics.)
All knowledge is good, but I still say that the Psycology
(phonetic: "sykologee") aspect of language design is
98% of where the problem is.
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/
> --
> Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
> http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
> How to win arguments on usenet http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/usenet.html
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jan 1999 01:09:49 GMT
From: dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus))
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn79l86t.mtj.dformosa@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
In article <77e48o$jqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>In article <369A3382.7E06766@atrieva.com>,
> Jerome O'Neil <jeromeo@atrieva.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> I consider this thread a "peer review" of your "objective study." You
>> have clearly not met the bar. Perhaps next term.
>>
>
>This thread aint no objective review.
You can't objectivly review a programing language, its like saying
"Which religion is the best" programing langs are more mirrors of the way
you think.
[...]
>It is funny how the OOP croud ridiculed me for factoring in
>the amount of typing needed in a language, and the Perl croud
>ridiculed me for not ranking it high enough.
You are so close to the Truth.
>What one is chewed out for depends on where they go.
>I used to take it personally until I saw all the
>contradictions in the yellers.
Its only a contradiction of you consider the yellers to be all of one
voice, but we are a muliculture.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
How to win arguments on usenet http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/usenet.html
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jan 1999 01:14:18 GMT
From: dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus))
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <slrn79l8fa.mtj.dformosa@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
In article <77e5si$kvu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
[...]
>How can you say that all languages are *equally* abusable?
I know a programer because english is his second langage names all his
verables and funtions with sequetionaly rising alphanumric codes (like
perls magical autoincrement) if you can read code where everthing is
AACD123 then you are a better man then I.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
How to win arguments on usenet http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/usenet.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:13:22 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e7jg$mi5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <slrn79gk7b.cjr.dformosa@godzilla.zeta.org.au>,
dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
> In article <778jml$1b7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> >In article <yzhsbtk9y2xj.fsf@netcom15.netcom.com>,
> > UG <mcampbel@netcom.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> $counter = $index = $how_many_have_I_seen = 0;
> >>
> >
> >How about this for initialization:
> >
> >Store 0 to counter, index, how_many, etc.
> >
> >It comes from a real language.
>
> It is very verbose isn't it? This goes against yhour rapid
> development rquirement.
Very? It is about a 15% increase is characters. How does that
qualify as "Very"?
>
> >It can even be done with a function.
> >
> >Init(0, counter, index, how_many, etc.)
> >
> >(How to process an infinite number of parameters
> >makes for some interesting thinking.)
>
> Perl handels a veribal number of parameters, why can't your lang?
I never said it could not. I am just resisting the urge
to put every feature in it. If sufficient use can be found
for it, then perhaps I would agree to something like that.
(Array parameters seem to satisfy such needs about 90% of the time.
Besides, I differientiated between what the interpreter can
handle and what can be implemeted with the language itself.
Thus, a built-in function may be able to handle variable qty of params,
but not a programmer-built one.)
>
> >No need to introduce leaky assigments and their related
> >headaches to initialize stuff.
>
> Ok, what is so wrong with leaky assigments? You state that they are
> bad but don't tell us why they are bad.
I do not remember all the arguments that I *did* present, but
one is confusion about what is a boolean expression
and what is a leaky assignment. It is too easy to
confuse and mistype "=" and "==". Especially for us
progammers who have to use many different languages.
>
> --
> Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
> http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
> How to win arguments on usenet http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/usenet.html
>
>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:19:55 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e7vo$mtk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <m3lnjb7ckh.fsf@moiraine.dimensional.com>,
Daniel Grisinger <dgris@moiraine.dimensional.com> wrote:
> trollboy <topmind@technologist.com> spewed forth across our group:
>
> > In article <3696A757.E2AE40D4@mediaone.net>,
> > "Michael D. Schleif" <mds-resource@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > > Seriously, please, present your alternative language so that we may be
> > > amazed or continue our amusement }:-^
> > >
>
> > Is my 85k webpage not enough detail on my suggestions?
>
> No, it's not.
>
> In matters technical the only thing that matters, the only thing that
> has ever mattered, and the only thing that will ever matter is a
> working implementation. Since you have such a deep grasp of the finer
> points of language design and construction implementing your language
> should be none too difficult.
>
That is utterly ridiculous! Why is a working implimentation so
important? Nobody has questioned the implimentability of
the features I describe.
It is like saying that only great performers can compose
music. Even cartooning is split between the concept
people and the actual animators (usually done in Korea).
Who invented the implimentation criteria? And where
is their web page discussing why that criteria
is the most important?
That's crap, man!
> We eagerly await your results.
>
> dgris
> --
> Daniel Grisinger dgris@moiraine.dimensional.com
> "No kings, no presidents, just a rough consensus and
> running code."
> Dave Clark
>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:22:32 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e84l$n10$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> The "=" is an operator. As "a = b' is an
> expression, it has a value. If you use that expression as the RHS of another
> assignment, the value gets assigned. It is NOT leakage.
>
You call it what you want, and I will call it what I want.
-tmind-
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:36:49 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <77e8vh$nsm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Reply to TRG Software's chatmaster@c-zone.net 1999/01/08 message:
So now you are digging into my background in an attempt
to embarass me. That's right, don't attack the facts and
issues, attack the PERSON. It is much easier because
you then don't have to think.
In my opinion that is f*cking EVIL!!!!!!!!!!
I hope TRG software and ChatCrap go bankrupt and take you
spiraling to hell with it !!!!!!!!!
FU! shatmaster@c-muckhunter.net !!!!!!!
You should run for congress. You proved yourself qualified.
-tmind-
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:50:54 GMT
From: John@melon17.freeserve.co.uk (John )
Subject: Reading a file problem
Message-Id: <369d9c3c.19963691@news.freeserve.net>
Can anyone see why the following code
causes an error?
#########################################
#!/usr/bin/perl
print "Content-type:text/html\n\n";
$file = filepath;
#location of file
open (INF, "$file")or &dienice("Can't open $file");
@ary = <INF>;
close(INF);
foreach $line (@ary){
chomp($line);
print "$line\n";
}
###########################################
I appear to get a malformed header problem.
John
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:41:27 -0800
From: euclid <euclid@crl.com>
Subject: So ... Now what do I do?...
Message-Id: <369AA847.AA53E965@crl.com>
..well I "gunzipped" - "perl-5.004_04-sol26-sparc-local.gz"..and all I
got was just the filename " " stripped of the ".gz" extension ..I.e.
"perl-5.004_04-sol26-sparc-local" so now what do I do?
I placed "perl-5.004_04-sol26-sparc-local.gz" off root in a subdirectory
called "/mand/Perl5" -- Just to be safe! (Then I thought I might read
the README file(s))
After I "gunzipped" it .... it was called:
"perl-5.004_04-sol26-sparc-local"
After executing the unix command "ls -al"
I got the following <results> on SunSolaris 2.6:
"total 19910
drwxr-xr-x 2 root other 512 Jan 11 11:57 .
drwxr-xr-x 14 777 sysadmin 1536 Jan 11 11:55 ..
-rw-r--r-- 1 root other 10181120 Jan 11 11:56
perl-5.004_04-sol26-sparc-local"
So ... Now what do I do?...
Would it have been different if I would have "gzunzipped" it to
/usr/local... ?
I guess THE BIG question is: "What do I do with the file
'perl-5.004_04-sol26-sparc-local'?"
How do I write and execute Perl scripts?
Lost somewhere in Northern CA. ;-(
regards,
mike anderson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:51:42 GMT
From: corruptor@terry.org.uk (The Corruptor)
Subject: URGENT: Array of arrays...
Message-Id: <3699f2e9.37866128@news.ukonline.co.uk>
Please Help! I'm getting desperate...
I'm trying to create an array of arrays, and can't figure out the
syntax to do so.
If I have a (say) three element array ($row[0],$row[1],$row[2]) how do
I assign this array to (say) $parent_array[0]?
I ideally want to index $parent_array[0] to pull out the $row array at
a later date.
Many thanks for your help (in advance!)
--
_THE_____ ____
______ \________________________ ___________\___\______________________
\ \____/ __ \_____ \ __ \/ /\ \ _____ \ ______/ __ \_____ \
\ __/__/ \__\ \ \__\ \ \__/__/ \__\\ / / \ /__/ \__\ \ \__\
\ \__/ / \____/ \ \ \ \ / \____/ \\_/ / \__/ \____/ \ \
\_______\__________/___\ \___\ \__________/ __/ \_____\__________/___\
----====-=**********=====---====--=********\___\=---======**********===----
-===-
"EGO iS NotHinG wIthOuT ArrOgAncE tO BaCk iT uP..."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:25:57 GMT
From: win32apacheguy@my-dejanews.com
Subject: Win32 Apache Web Site... Updated URL...
Message-Id: <77e8b3$nc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
For anyone who was trying to get into the previous URL for
the Win32 Apache Web Site, Im sorry for any connection problems.
Dont ask me, I dont know, but I had Win32Apache.Digispec.com
mapped in my DNS (BIND for NT) and was working just fine, then
today I find the domain/sub-domain wont resolve! And never
would again!
I did in fact get the DNS mapping okay with ApacheWin32.Digispec.com!
I hope this will be stable, I have had similar problems in the past,
but never with mapping a domain and then having it quit! Before, it
just wouldnt map! Strange, some work fine, some dont.
Anyway, please feel free to visit:
http://ApacheWin32.Digispec.Com
The site is still very new, but the BBS has over 60
topic areas, even one for each valid directive!
Special areas of interest, like SSL and ASP!
A resource page with links, and direct download links!
A digital article page, which is naked right now, but
as soon as I get 1.3.3 working on my development
computer, Ill have more time to add some info!
Please come visit, and participate! If you have any
information to submit, feel free to do so! We are
looking for any sample .conf files and links to
other sites and direct downloads!!
Thanks for your time!
Andrew Daniel
The Win32 Apache Web Site
Webmaster
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: 12 Dec 98 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Dec 98)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
Well, after 6 months, here's the answer to the quiz: what do we do about
comp.lang.perl.moderated. Answer: nothing.
]From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
]Date: 21 Sep 1998 19:53:43 -0700
]Subject: comp.lang.perl.moderated available via e-mail
]
]It is possible to subscribe to comp.lang.perl.moderated as a mailing list.
]To do so, send mail to majordomo@eyrie.org with "subscribe clpm" in the
]body. Majordomo will then send you instructions on how to confirm your
]subscription. This is provided as a general service for those people who
]cannot receive the newsgroup for whatever reason or who just prefer to
]receive messages via e-mail.
The Perl-Users Digest is a retransmission of the USENET newsgroup
comp.lang.perl.misc. For subscription or unsubscription requests, send
the single line:
subscribe perl-users
or:
unsubscribe perl-users
to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu.
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.misc (and this Digest), send your
article to perl-users@ruby.oce.orst.edu.
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
clpa@perl.com.
To request back copies (available for a week or so), send your request
to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu with the command "send perl-users x.y",
where x is the volume number and y is the issue number.
The Meta-FAQ, an article containing information about the FAQ, is
available by requesting "send perl-users meta-faq". The real FAQ, as it
appeared last in the newsgroup, can be retrieved with the request "send
perl-users FAQ". Due to their sizes, neither the Meta-FAQ nor the FAQ
are included in the digest.
The "mini-FAQ", which is an updated version of the Meta-FAQ, is
available by requesting "send perl-users mini-faq". It appears twice
weekly in the group, but is not distributed in the digest.
For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
answer them even if I did know the answer.
------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 4623
**************************************
