[10723] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4323 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Nov 30 11:07:42 1998
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 08:01:29 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 30 Nov 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 4323
Today's topics:
Re: PROPOSAL: XML based Make for C++, Perl, Python, Ja (Greg Ward)
Re: PROPOSAL: XML based Make for C++, Perl, Python, Ja (Bart Lateur)
Re: RegExp and Authentication Help. ptimmins@netserv.unmc.edu
Re: Running Perl scripts as NT services <indy@NOSPAMdemobuilder.com>
Statistics for comp.lang.perl.misc <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>
Re: string match ptimmins@netserv.unmc.edu
Re: Website Automation dzuy@my-dejanews.com
Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Mar 98 (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 30 Nov 1998 15:03:57 GMT
From: gward@thrak.cnri.reston.va.us (Greg Ward)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: XML based Make for C++, Perl, Python, Java
Message-Id: <73uc4t$fj0$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
On Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:45:34 -0800, Pluto <Pluto@nospam.com> wrote:
>So, I was hoping to challenge the more knowledgeable people on these
>newsgroups (Perl, Python, Java, C++) to cooperate and bring Make into
>the 90s. I was hoping to use an XML grammar to describe the Makefile.
>
[...project goals deleted...]
>
>Perl's MakeMaker is a wonderful tool. And Perl is very popular (I like
>Python too!). So, I was hoping to get the Perl community to lead us to
>the promised land by redoing MakeMaker using the above requirements.
>And I also hope that Python, Java and C++ will aggresively build on
>this.
Funny you should bring this up. The Python world has long been aware of
the pain of building Python extensions because of the lack a standard
framework along the lines of MakeMaker. I recently parachuted right
into the middle of the Python community from a long, happy, and ongoing
relationship (albeit now in my spare time only) with Perl, and so
noticed the lack of a MakeMaker-equivalent almost immediately. Since I
complained the loudest, I somehow got volunteered for the job of
bringing such a beast into existence -- provisionally being called the
Python Module Distribution Utilities, or distutils for short.
As a satisfied user of MakeMaker, I'm obviously going to try to steal
the best ideas from the Perl community, and make them a little more
Pythonic (ie. more cross-platform and a bit more object-oriented). The
basic idea -- unpack a module distribution and run a script that sets
things up for installation -- will remain the same, but the biggest
difference is that we plan to dump the dependence on 'make' for
portability reasons. Instead, the startup script ('setup.py' rather
than 'Makefile.PL') will have the capability to do everything needed.
Or rather, it will bring in modules that have the capability to do
everything needed -- build, test, and install modules. (Plus generate
distributions -- both source and binary -- and, eventually, process
documentation.) As an extra added bonus, setup.py will also be able to
generate a Makefile -- mainly for the convenience of developers writing
C extensions under Unix, but possibly useful for others as well.
Now, it strikes me that your proposed XML-based-make-replacement will
*not* be able to replace the functionality of Makefile.PL, my proposed
setup.py, or even humble old Makefiles. The reason is that Makefile.PL
and setup.py can include arbitrary Perl/Python code. (This is feature!
it means you can write the equivalent of an autoconf script for your
Perl/Python extension *in* Perl/Python, without resorting to the arcane
art of writing portable shell code (which really isn't all that portable
-- it only works on platforms with Bourne-shell- work-alikes, namely
Unix and some enlightened NT installations).)
And part of the reason that Makefiles tend to be so hairy is that you
*can* put arbitrary shell code in them; it's just a bit tricky figuring
out where to put it and when it'll run. I suspect that what you really
want is a way to express the core of a Makefile -- the inter-file
dependencies -- without all the extra crap needed to make things work.
The other big thing that's never really been properly addressed is the
issue of package meta-data. MakeMaker has a standard way of doing this,
but it's encoded in Perl so potentially difficult to parse (except,
luckily, everyone tends to write Makefile.PL's in such a way that they
can usually be naively parsed... but not always!). The Linux Software
Map is another standard, but one that hasn't caught on outside the Linux
world. RPM (and, I believe, the Debian package format) also have ways
of expressing package metadata, but I don't know much about their
internals -- and again, they have (so far) stayed pretty much in the
Linux world.
So perhaps that's the role XML can fill in this area: expressing
dependencies and package metadata. But I suspect there will always be a
role for arbitrary {shell|Perl|Python} code in configuring and building
(and possibly installing) module distributions.
Greg
PS. BTW anyone interested in my "MakeMaker for Python" proposal should
take a look at
http://www.foretec.com/python/workshops/1998-11/dd-ward-sum.html
MakeMaker hackers are particularly welcome -- I'd like to hear your
input on this. Also, there's a new Python SIG devoted to the distutils;
visit
http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig/
to join the mailing list.
Greg
--
Greg Ward - software developer gward@cnri.reston.va.us
Corporation for National Research Initiatives
1895 Preston White Drive voice: +1-703-620-8990 x287
Reston, Virginia, USA 20191-5434 fax: +1-703-620-0913
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:01:03 GMT
From: bart.lateur@skynet.be (Bart Lateur)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: XML based Make for C++, Perl, Python, Java
Message-Id: <3662b20a.26163249@news.skynet.be>
Pluto wrote:
> <file><path full>/the/first/module/</dir>file</file>
How can this possibly be vcalid XML. There's a closing of a tag that
hasn't even been opened: <dir>. <path> isn't closed.
Something else: on the Mac, which is supposed to be a "valid platform"
too, "/" is not a valid path separator, as it is a valid file name
character. So in your code, you should replace the literal "/" with an
empty tag, e.g. <dirsep/>.
Alternatively, URL-encoding would be an option, the same way as file
paths are encoded for web browsers. Special characters like "/" should
then be encoded as "%xx", with "xx" the hex value of the Ascii code.
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:44:41 GMT
From: ptimmins@netserv.unmc.edu
Subject: Re: RegExp and Authentication Help.
Message-Id: <73ueh3$bb5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <3662683A.8DC00F7@home.com>,
Colin Cyr <ccyr@home.com> wrote:
> Well, hrm, I've tried and I've tried.
[snip]
You've got alot of questions there! You might want to consider hiring
someone who's already 'there', and then you can learn as the project
goes along.
You could also try breaking your project up into specific tasks, then
work on each individually. This might also help you focus on what you
actually need to do, and where you need help.
Your subject line seems fairly well focused, but I didn't
get that same sense from the body of your message at all ...
it *is* Monday, though, so maybe *I'm* not 'there' yet :)
Patrick Timmins
$monger{Omaha}[0]
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:57:17 -0500
From: "Indy" <indy@NOSPAMdemobuilder.com>
Subject: Re: Running Perl scripts as NT services
Message-Id: <73ub7k$5uh$1@nntp2.uunet.ca>
There is a Microsoft utility called srvany.exe which allows you run any
program as a service.
Indy
--
www.perl2exe.com
Tools for Web Programmers
David Cantrell wrote in message <365ec636.85431814@thunder>...
>On Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:30:52 +0000, Marquis de Carvdawg
><carvdawg@patriot.net> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Could someone point me to a FAQ that tells me how
>>to run my scripts as NT services?
>
>I'll point you to the NT Resource Kit ;-)
>
>[Copying newsgroup posts to me by mail is considered rude]
>
>--
>David Cantrell, part-time Unix/perl/SQL/java techie
> full-time chef/musician/homebrewer
> http://www.ThePentagon.com/NukeEmUp
------------------------------
Date: 30 Nov 1998 15:57:31 GMT
From: Greg Bacon <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>
Subject: Statistics for comp.lang.perl.misc
Message-Id: <73uf9b$gv7$3@info.uah.edu>
Following is a summary of articles spanning a 7 day period,
beginning at 23 Nov 1998 15:54:38 GMT and ending at
30 Nov 1998 07:46:34 GMT.
Notes
=====
- A line in the body of a post is considered to be original if it
does *not* match the regular expression /^\s{0,3}(?:>|:|\S+>|\+\+)/.
- All text after the last cut line (/^-- $/) in the body is
considered to be the author's signature.
- The scanner prefers the Reply-To: header over the From: header
in determining the "real" email address and name.
- Original Content Rating (OCR) is the ratio of the original content
volume to the total body volume.
- Find the News-Scan distribution on the CPAN!
<URL:http://www.perl.com/CPAN/modules/by-module/News/>
- Please send all comments to Greg Bacon <gbacon@cs.uah.edu>.
- Copyright (c) 1998 Greg Bacon. All Rights Reserved.
Verbatim copying and redistribution is permitted without royalty;
alteration is not permitted. Redistribution and/or use for any
commercial purpose is prohibited.
Excluded Posters
================
perlfaq-suggestions\@mox\.perl\.com
Totals
======
Posters: 427
Articles: 1116 (421 with cutlined signatures)
Threads: 402
Volume generated: 1820.4 kb
- headers: 777.5 kb (16,035 lines)
- bodies: 969.1 kb (31,236 lines)
- original: 659.8 kb (23,019 lines)
- signatures: 72.7 kb (1,685 lines)
Original Content Rating: 0.681
Averages
========
Posts per poster: 2.6
median: 1 post
mode: 1 post - 280 posters
s: 5.6 posts
Posts per thread: 2.8
median: 2.0 posts
mode: 1 post - 133 threads
s: 2.4 posts
Message size: 1670.3 bytes
- header: 713.4 bytes (14.4 lines)
- body: 889.2 bytes (28.0 lines)
- original: 605.4 bytes (20.6 lines)
- signature: 66.7 bytes (1.5 lines)
Top 10 Posters by Number of Posts
=================================
(kb) (kb) (kb) (kb)
Posts Volume ( hdr/ body/ orig) Address
----- -------------------------- -------
61 86.6 ( 49.0/ 30.6/ 20.4) Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
44 71.6 ( 25.2/ 46.4/ 29.4) tadmc@flash.net (Tad McClellan)
42 67.5 ( 28.6/ 33.4/ 17.8) Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@btinternet.com>
39 69.3 ( 32.4/ 28.6/ 19.3) mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
39 74.7 ( 24.6/ 45.6/ 28.4) lr@hpl.hp.com (Larry Rosler)
37 52.2 ( 27.7/ 19.5/ 11.4) comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
30 45.4 ( 21.9/ 23.5/ 9.2) Tk Soh <r28629@email.sps.mot.com>
16 26.4 ( 11.4/ 14.7/ 9.1) dragons@scescape.net (Matthew Bafford)
12 19.0 ( 7.0/ 12.0/ 7.7) "Allan M. Due" <due@murray.fordham.edu>
12 17.0 ( 9.1/ 7.4/ 4.5) Rick Delaney <rick.delaney@shaw.wave.ca>
These posters accounted for 29.7% of all articles.
Top 10 Posters by Volume
========================
(kb) (kb) (kb) (kb)
Volume ( hdr/ body/ orig) Posts Address
-------------------------- ----- -------
86.6 ( 49.0/ 30.6/ 20.4) 61 Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
74.7 ( 24.6/ 45.6/ 28.4) 39 lr@hpl.hp.com (Larry Rosler)
71.6 ( 25.2/ 46.4/ 29.4) 44 tadmc@flash.net (Tad McClellan)
69.3 ( 32.4/ 28.6/ 19.3) 39 mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
67.5 ( 28.6/ 33.4/ 17.8) 42 Jonathan Stowe <gellyfish@btinternet.com>
52.2 ( 27.7/ 19.5/ 11.4) 37 comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
45.4 ( 21.9/ 23.5/ 9.2) 30 Tk Soh <r28629@email.sps.mot.com>
26.4 ( 11.4/ 14.7/ 9.1) 16 dragons@scescape.net (Matthew Bafford)
21.7 ( 8.1/ 10.5/ 5.4) 10 Uri Guttman <uri@sysarch.com>
20.1 ( 5.8/ 14.3/ 11.6) 7 Mick <bellears@deakin.edu.au>
These posters accounted for 29.4% of the total volume.
Top 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of five posts)
==============================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Address
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.973 ( 4.9 / 5.1) 9 fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
0.948 ( 3.4 / 3.6) 5 bradley@iinet.net.au
0.813 ( 11.6 / 14.3) 7 Mick <bellears@deakin.edu.au>
0.810 ( 3.1 / 3.9) 6 "Sean Mintz" <stmintz@yahoo.com>
0.808 ( 11.4 / 14.1) 11 aml@world.std.com (Andrew M. Langmead)
0.784 ( 6.5 / 8.4) 9 Gareth Rees <garethr@cre.canon.co.uk>
0.768 ( 4.6 / 6.0) 6 nguyen.van@imvi.bls.com
0.749 ( 3.7 / 4.9) 7 mulveyr@ucesucks.mulveyr.roc.servtech.com
0.742 ( 4.5 / 6.0) 6 ken@forum.swarthmore.edu (Ken Williams)
0.721 ( 10.0 / 13.9) 5 "LSS" <lss@shaw.wave.ca>
Bottom 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of five posts)
=================================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Address
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.515 ( 3.0 / 5.8) 9 rjk@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Ronald J Kimball)
0.510 ( 5.4 / 10.5) 10 Uri Guttman <uri@sysarch.com>
0.475 ( 4.9 / 10.4) 7 "Steven Morlock" <newspost@morlock.net>
0.464 ( 2.5 / 5.4) 9 ilya@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich)
0.439 ( 2.4 / 5.5) 6 Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
0.415 ( 2.1 / 5.2) 5 cpierce1@mail.ford.com (Clinton Pierce)
0.402 ( 2.5 / 6.3) 10 ben@sofnet.com (BenJamin Prater)
0.398 ( 3.6 / 9.1) 10 "AmD" <Allan@due.net>
0.392 ( 9.2 / 23.5) 30 Tk Soh <r28629@email.sps.mot.com>
0.306 ( 2.5 / 8.1) 9 Dan Brian <dan@clockwork.net>
41 posters (9%) had at least five posts.
Top 10 Threads by Number of Posts
=================================
Posts Subject
----- -------
18 "ELSE" command in Perl??
14 Obfuscation of perl scripts
14 localtime () - perl's bug ?
13 How to print a simple character on the screen ?
10 Dangerous Commands
10 QUICK QUESTION!
10 Probably a simple question about hashes
9 a regexp question
9 Y2K work - need suggestions
9 Y2K and Programmer Denial
These threads accounted for 10.4% of all articles.
Top 10 Threads by Volume
========================
(kb) (kb) (kb) (kb)
Volume ( hdr/ body/ orig) Posts Subject
-------------------------- ----- -------
26.7 ( 11.9/ 13.9/ 7.5) 18 "ELSE" command in Perl??
25.9 ( 10.5/ 14.6/ 8.1) 14 Obfuscation of perl scripts
24.4 ( 9.6/ 13.7/ 8.2) 14 localtime () - perl's bug ?
23.4 ( 5.2/ 17.7/ 12.0) 8 regexp on multiple lines, etc.
22.2 ( 6.8/ 15.4/ 12.4) 8 URGENT...Help Required!
21.9 ( 6.9/ 14.9/ 8.3) 9 Y2K work - need suggestions
21.1 ( 9.2/ 10.7/ 6.3) 13 How to print a simple character on the screen ?
18.7 ( 6.7/ 11.7/ 6.2) 9 directory content with files size
18.5 ( 6.5/ 10.6/ 5.7) 8 getting a copy vs. not (was "Re: Probably a simple question...")
17.4 ( 7.8/ 8.3/ 5.1) 10 Dangerous Commands
These threads accounted for 12.1% of the total volume.
Top 10 Threads by OCR (minimum of five posts)
==============================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Subject
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.805 ( 12.4/ 15.4) 8 URGENT...Help Required!
0.777 ( 7.2/ 9.2) 9 Y2K and Programmer Denial
0.771 ( 2.3/ 3.0) 5 problem
0.766 ( 1.2/ 1.6) 5 Q: Parents and childs
0.761 ( 1.7/ 2.2) 5 Hello!
0.758 ( 5.2/ 6.9) 7 Bind won't take variables
0.756 ( 1.7/ 2.3) 5 Round with Perl
0.735 ( 2.5/ 3.4) 6 Perl compiler?
0.721 ( 6.2/ 8.6) 8 Stupid question: Script never terminates?
0.709 ( 2.0/ 2.9) 6 How do I translate binary string to a scalar value?
Bottom 10 Threads by OCR (minimum of five posts)
=================================================
(kb) (kb)
OCR orig / body Posts Subject
----- -------------- ----- -------
0.509 ( 2.2 / 4.2) 5 HELP! need help in regex for multiple word search
0.505 ( 3.3 / 6.6) 9 a regexp question
0.504 ( 2.8 / 5.5) 8 What to do when printf() doesn't apply
0.501 ( 2.2 / 4.4) 5 MacPerl and makefiles
0.447 ( 1.1 / 2.5) 5 1st Edition of Learning Perl
0.435 ( 1.7 / 3.8) 6 Remove non-alphabetic characters from string
0.424 ( 2.7 / 6.4) 7 in need of some help
0.420 ( 3.6 / 8.6) 10 Probably a simple question about hashes
0.411 ( 1.9 / 4.7) 8 Question from a mega-geek
0.396 ( 1.2 / 3.1) 8 Hiding "To:" field
61 threads (15%) had at least five posts.
Top 10 Targets for Crossposts
=============================
Articles Newsgroup
-------- ---------
46 comp.lang.perl.modules
24 comp.lang.perl
23 alt.perl
9 comp.lang.perl.moderated
8 comp.unix.shell
8 comp.unix.questions
8 comp.unix.admin
6 comp.lang.perl.announce
4 alt.perl.sockets
4 de.comp.lang.perl
Top 10 Crossposters
===================
Articles Address
-------- -------
10 Mick <bellears@deakin.edu.au>
9 Citizen Joe <no@spam.org>
8 keydet89@yahoo.com
7 comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
7 mulveyr@ucesucks.mulveyr.roc.servtech.com
6 sw12@irz.inf.tu-dresden.de (Sebastian Weber)
5 vepoko@start.com.au
5 dragons@scescape.net (Matthew Bafford)
4 "Andrew Chapas" <aka@takas.lt>
4 "Spider" <arachne@2webspinners.com>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:23:45 GMT
From: ptimmins@netserv.unmc.edu
Subject: Re: string match
Message-Id: <73ud9g$a73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <73tcm9$k26$1@news-2.news.gte.net>,
ankadakia@hotmail.com wrote:
> Hi
> I would like to know the following:
>
> -----
> $string = "This is string. is it";
> @i=($string =~ m/(is)/ig);
> print "@i";
> ------
> How @i is taking "is is is";
$string = "This is string. is it";
^^ ^^ ^^
'is' appears 3 times in your $string.
The g modifier in the regex it making the match happen repeatedly.
The i modifier isn't doing anything, in this case.
The evaluation of the regex being assigned to an array makes Perl
assume you want the matches put into an array, so you get 'is is is'
printed out ... had the evaluation been assigned to a scaler (eg, $i)
Perl would have assigned the number of matches that occured to $i ...
in this case, $i would equal 3.
The parentheses are telling Perl what to actually put into the array.
For example:
$string = "This is string. is it";
@i=($string =~ m/th(is)/ig);
print "@i";
will match string once at 'This' (note, now the i modifier is doing
something :), and will put one 'is' into @i. Now take out the parentheses:
$string = "This is string. is it";
@i=($string =~ m/this/ig);
print "@i";
the regex will still match once at 'This', but now @i will contain the
whole match, that is 'That' instead of just 'is'.
Perl does alot of 'context sensitive' things automatically ... which
is, both, a source of power and confusion when using Perl. Read perldoc
perlre, and buy Jeffrey Friedl's "Mastering Regular Expressions" from
O'Reilly and Assoc for a great overview of regexes, in general, and a
good intro to Perl regexes, in particular.
Patrick Timmins
$monger{Omaha}[0]
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:35:15 GMT
From: dzuy@my-dejanews.com
Subject: Re: Website Automation
Message-Id: <73uaf2$7qo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <366023fc.750524532@news.cal.shaw.wave.ca>,
internet.specialist@shaw.wave.ca wrote:
> Hi;
>
> Ted Holmes here from the Canadian Email Business
> Network.
>
> I would very much like to speak with any one about Website
> Automation.
>
> I am looking for people who would be interested in helping build a
> system that would allow a client to build their own web site on line,
> install and configure their own discussion board, guestbook,
> form handler, and minor database etc.
>
> Once complete, the Web Site would be easily updated using online forms
> which would create changes globally.
>
> It is important that this system does not require the
> client to know about perl or cgi or even html.
>
> The Web Sites would be very utilitarian, and not provide much in the
> way of graphics (if anything at all), but would provide a very
> powerful tool that a client could construct and maintain in a
> self-directed manner.
>
Check out Deja News new feature, Communities from at www.dejanews.com.
I believe it has what you're looking for.
> I would like to participate as the marketing director of such a
> program, as I already have a database of hundreds of clients that
> receive my daily editorial by email.
>
> Is this something you would be interested in discussing or pursuing?
> Contact me by Email
> iot.help@shaw.wave.ca
>
> If you know of anyone at all that has actually done this or come
> close, I would appreciate your pointing me in their direction.
> Warm regards,
>
> Ted Holmes
> President
> http://www.cebn.com
>
> How to Start and Promote Virtually Any Business, Product or Service On
> the Internet
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jul 98 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Mar 98)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
Special notice: in a few days, the new group comp.lang.perl.moderated
should be formed. I would rather not support two different groups, and I
know of no other plans to create a digested moderated group. This leaves
me with two options: 1) keep on with this group 2) change to the
moderated one.
If you have opinions on this, send them to
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 4323
**************************************
