[118604] in Cypherpunks
BOUNCE cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com: Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 8 (fwd)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jim Choate)
Mon Oct 4 00:23:26 1999
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:36:33 -0400
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From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <cypherpunks@openpgp.net>
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Reply-To: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
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____________________________________________________________________
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left
free to combat it.
Thomas Jefferson
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate
Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com
www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087
-====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
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Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 22:31:31 -0500
To: cypherpunks@algebra.com
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From: Sean Roach <roach_s@mail.intplsrv.net>
Old-Subject: Re: Unplugged! The biggest hack in history
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Subject: Re: Unplugged! The biggest hack in history
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At 06:57 PM 10/3/99 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote:
...
>It's relatively difficult to wiretap data streams created with a
>pair of high-speed modems; both devices transmit simultaneously but
>c ancel out their own contribution to the resulting waveform and
^
>thereby derive the other waveform - which isn't a simple stream of
>binary data but a sandwich of many smaller streams in different
>frequency "windows", where the use of each individual window is
>dynamically negotiated depending on the characteristics (loss &
>noisiness) of the circuit between the two devices. Actually, this
>description of the complexity is (I think, but I'm a long ways from
>being an audio/analog person) correct up through 33.6 modem
>technology, I'm sure that the weird tricks used to do X2 and v.90
>make this an even uglier problem.
>
>Once upon a time, when consumer modems ran at 300 bps (Bell 103
>standard, if I remember correctly), it was possible to make an
>audio tape recording of a conversation between two modems and play
>it back into a receiving modem, which would demodulate one side of
>the conversation - repeating that process with the modem set to the
>opposite role would net you both sides of the conversation. Early
>Hayes modems had parameter settings which made this relatively
>simple; and even earlier more primitive modems had the
>answer/originate settings in hardware, not software (viz, the
>VICmodem for Commodores or the early Atari modems).
>
>Times have changed - spending $70K for a box which would reconstruct
>data streams for consumer-grade modems in 1994 isn't crazy. They've
>probably spent 100 times that much since then adapting to current
>technology, where (a) modems are faster and are using a wider
>variety of weird modulation schemes, and (b) there are a lot of
>different layers in the stack which need to be decoded - from a
>single analog signal to two analog signals into many analog
>channels into multiple digital streams into a demultiplexed single
>stream into packets in a PPP session into IP packets, which then
>must be reassembled into TCP/UDP/ICMP packets and then collated by
>host/port/session ID's.
>
>It's much more efficient for them to get access to data higher up
>the transport stack - which is why they want network providers to
>give them access to the raw IP flow, or to get it from compromised
>applications themselves.
...
Excuse my ignorance, fully demonstrated in my previous post on the
subject, but isn't the phone network a hybrid network? Filtered from
both directions? Granted, this wouldn't be worth much on a twisted
pair, but if it's true then it would have been easier to tap the line
from within the phone switch by catching the split data upstream of
the switch, and putting one modem on each direction. Or so it
sounds.
Sean Roach
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