[118173] in Cypherpunks
RE: IP: THEY THINK WE'RE THE ENEMY
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (John Detwiler)
Tue Sep 21 09:26:04 1999
Message-ID: <BB3C94904C8BD011BBA500805FC1E02B03791BF5@SMITHERS>
From: John Detwiler <JDetwiler@LTDCommodities.com>
To: "'cypherpunks@cyberpass.net'" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:58:18 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Reply-To: John Detwiler <JDetwiler@LTDCommodities.com>
The manual in question is real. This chapter in question is discussing the
tactical operations of a Soviet Red Army Motorized Rifle Battalion (The
document date is 1979), which would of course include political
indoctrination officials. This section has nothing to do with US Army
operations.
John Detwiler
> ----------
> From: Declan McCullagh[SMTP:declan@well.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 7:22 PM
> To: Doug Fiedor
> Cc: ignition-point@precision-d.com; cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Subject: Re: IP: THEY THINK WE'RE THE ENEMY
>
>
> Doug,
>
> Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed reading your column, and the world would be
> a
> poorer place if you hadn't written it.
>
> But the journalist in me still likes to get facts right, and there's zero
> evidence that the manual is real, and at least a couple red flags that
> suggest the version up on that web site is a hoax. There might have been a
> real, honest-to-goodness military manual with that title at some point,
> but
> that one surely ain't it.
>
> I mean, "party members" distributed throughout "fighting units?" Hello,
> Soviet Union, anyone?
>
> -Declan
> http://earthops.org/sovereign/urban_warfare/90-10.2.html
>
>
> At 19:25 9/20/1999 -0400, Doug Fiedor wrote:
> >To All:
> >
> > Now wait just a flash-bang grenade minute here. . . . I've been
> >following that stupid "Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) FM
> >90-10" manual around for a few years, just knowing that someday I would
> want to
> >use something out of it.
> > Look at the date on the thing. That is EXACTLY how special
> operations
> >teams were trained back in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Yes, there
> was
> >always a "political officer" (or two). Yes, propaganda techniques were
> taught
> >as part of population control.
> > They still are! In fact, these guys are masters at propaganda --
> >rivaling the CIA in local area operations, actually.
> > The deal is, a while back the Army made a lot of material on
> their
> web
> >sites unavailable. Training manuals are now gone, unless you can access
> >through a military computer.
> > Wander on over to
> http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm34-1/ref.htm and
> >check for yourself. Field Manual FM 90-10 is still listed on that page.
> >However, clicking on it gets you nowhere. It was even removed from The
> >Federation of American Scientists web site. Almost all military manuals
> were.
> > Yet FM 90-10 is still a valid training manual. It's a little
> old,
> >maybe; and it's only used as reference, maybe; but it is still used by
> the
> >military, nonetheless.
> > Anyway, I wanted to point to it for that article. There was only
> one
> >place I could find it because the Army shut down half of their
> information.
> >So, I referenced it where I could find it.
> > It truth, I looked over parts of it and found no changes. And,
> the
> >part
> >I was most interested in was just as it has always been -- even way, way
> back
> >when I was in the Army. Which means that it nicely fit the point I
> wanted to
> >make. Therefore, I referenced it.
> > Young men may differ in what is right or wrong with the Army --
> we
> did
> >even back when I was a ground-ponder.
> > But then, we always quickly received a reminder of the real
> theory of
> >military operations: There is a right way of doing things, a wrong way
> of
> >doing things, and the Army way of doing things. <g>
> > Field Manual FM 90-10 is the Army way. And, those techniques
> work
> >quite
> >well in time of war. My only point was that this stuff has no place in
> >civilian police work. Not in the United States, anyway.
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >At 03:45 PM 9/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >>In Doug Fiedor's recent column on police militarization, he quotes from
> a
> >>purported "US Army urban warfare manual" and gives a link to it. Fair
> >>enough. Well, I took a look at it and here's what I found in chapter
> two:
> >>
> >>http://earthops.org/sovereign/urban_warfare/90-10.2.html
> >>>All fighting men are told that no one has the right to leave the
> defended
> >>location without a specific order to do so. Party members are
> distributed
> >>throughout the fighting units. There must be an "active member" in every
> >>separate group of fighting men. He conducts party-political
> indoctrination
> >>and provides the example in combat. Based on the commander's iuidance
> and
> >>decision, the Deputy Commander for Political Affairs plans the
> >>party-political support for the combat missions.
> >>
> >>I don't know about you, but this seems to me to be a spoof of some
> Soviet
> >>literature, not something that has anything to do with the FBI or Waco.
> Or
> >>maybe it's something that a bored high school JROTC kid wrote in his
> spare
> >>time. Whatever.
> >>
> >>Moral: Just because something's on the Internet, don't believe it's
> real.
> >>
> >>-Declan
> >>
> >>
> >>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:22:09 -0600
> >>>To: Ignition-Point < >
> >>>From: Doug Fiedor <fiedor19@eos.net>
> >>>Subject: IP: THEY THINK WE'RE THE ENEMY
> >>>Sender: owner-ignition-point@precision-d.com
> >>>Reply-To: Doug Fiedor <fiedor19@eos.net>
> >>>
> >>[...]
> >>> Oh, and they also have use of a Special
> >>>Operations classified Army aviation unit used almost
> >>>exclusively for covert missions; which is conveniently
> >>>based next to the Quantico FBI Academy. And that area just
> >>>happens to be, also coincidentally, where the military
> >>>trains certain types of covert special operations people.
> >>> So, we went looking for training manuals. One
> >>>reasonably adequate one is at:
> >>>http://earthops.org/sovereign/urban_warfare This is
> >>>FM 90-10, titled "Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain
> >>>(MOUT)." In Army-speak, it is about "those military actions
> >>>planned and conducted on a terrain complex where manmade
> >>>construction impacts on the tactical options available to
> >>>commanders."
> >>> We found Appendix G: "How To Attack And Clear
> >>>Buildings," quite interesting because it seems to describe
> >>>the actions of those many military practice attacks carried
> >>>out on urban areas around the country over the past couple
> >>>years. Interestingly enough, it also diagrams the methods
> >>>the BATF tried to use at Waco.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
