[9348] in Commercialization & Privatization of the Internet
Re: Cost vs benefit of internet services
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Karl Denninger)
Wed Dec 29 23:20:16 1993
From: karl@mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
To: matthew@echo.com (Matthew Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1993 22:19:20 -0600 (CST)
Cc: karl@mcs.com, stpeters@dawn.crd.ge.com, com-priv@psi.com,
In-Reply-To: <199312300114.RAA16551@echo.com> from "Matthew Kaufman" at Dec 29, 93 05:14:54 pm
> I don't think that the CIX charges too much for what they sell.
> I _do_ think that the unwritten "rules" about not being able
> to resell CIX routing to anybody who's acting as a "provider"
> are not reasonable.
There is NO unwritten rule on this.
> I would like to see the actual reason why a network provider is
> PROHIBITED from allowing subsidiary providers to have CIX routing.
You are not prohibited from doing so. However, whether or not another
network provider <chooses> to accept your indirect routes is <up to them>.
The CIX agreement only <protects> direct routes. In fact, it is clearly
stated that nothing in the agreement shall prohibit or otherwise prevent
private agreements between providers on any terms whatsoever.
You are free to negotiate with anyone you want for any indirect arrangement
you can manage, AND THAT INCLUDES GOING THROUGH THE CIX. And MCSNet (or
anyone else) is free to block your indirect traffic if we so choose.
You're not a CIX member? Talk to me. Make a case that its a good idea for
MCSNet to connect with you somehow, and I will do so. Membership or no.
Repeat for each provider, some of who may just say "no" instantly. That's
their choice too -- this is <hardly> a monopoly market ;-)
Or is the problem that you want a voluntary association of people let you in
their house to eat their food and drink their beer without paying the cover
charge? (in fact, as I understand it this is the same charge everybody else has
already paid without discrimination or exception)
SPRINT is free to set <any> policy they wish for their connection sales.
If they require you to join the CIX, well, that's a term and condition of
their deal. How is it really different from specifying that you must use
CISCO equipment to connect with them? If you find it unfair call Alternet --
they have a resale program, and so does ANS. Both will be happy to sell you
a link, and ANS doesn't require CIX membership for a gateway attachment. I
know that because I have a standard contract right here in front of me.
> Setting up an organization which you "must" be a member of in
> order to resell IP access, and which has prices which are
> fixed arbitrarily, which causes there to be an artificial,
> fixed-price barrier to entry, is called restraint of trade.
> I don't think I'd _want_ to be a "member" of a "trade organization"
> that was involved in this... especially given the legal
> liabilities.
> Is the "prohibition" not in writing just to try to keep
> the FTC away?
>
> -matthew
The prohibition DOES NOT EXIST. Again, Matthew, you are (and always have
been) free to go to each of the network providers and ask them if it is ok
for your indirect customers to have access to their facilities and customers.
You might even get a lot of "yes" answers. What you're not guaranteed is
that <all> of them will say yes, or that the ones you think are important
will say yes.
What <does> exist is network providers who see no reason to arbitrarily
become packet sinks for your customers at <your> whim. Its like any other
business -- if you want me to do something for you, then you have to
convince me that its in my best interest to allow it. That consideration
can be in any form we mutually agree on (as long as its legal :-). Good
businesspeople are making decisions on things all the time without the
exchange of money. What you're asking for just has to make sense for
both of us.
As a CIX member I can sell you a connection that you can resell, if I choose
to do so. I cannot, in clear conscience, <guarantee> that your customers will
be able to reach all the other CIX members and direct customers, although I
certainly can guarantee (if I want) that you can reach my customers in any
form whatsoever. You or I can certainly negotiate something with the other
providers individually if we (and they) decided to do so. Maybe the CIX
membership is easier (and cheaper) than the other alternatives. Maybe not.
I know that <I> think its a fully-justified expense and a good investment.
The CIX is not perfect. It is, however, a <great> help to the old situation
where if you wanted to get connectivity you might have to beg agreements
from 26 different regional providers!
--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.COM) | MCSNet - First Interactive Internet and
Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | Clarinet feed in Chicago. Send email to
Voice/FAX: [+1 312 248-8649] | "info@mcs.com" for more information.
