[8496] in Commercialization & Privatization of the Internet
Multimedia has been patented
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Barry Shein)
Sat Nov 20 21:18:21 1993
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1993 21:17:39 -0500
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
To: tenney@netcom.com
Cc: com-priv@psi.com
In-Reply-To: Glenn S. Tenney's message of Sat, 20 Nov 1993 16:53:16 -0800 <199311210053.QAA26427@mail.netcom.com>
>From: tenney@netcom.com (Glenn S. Tenney)
>The PTO has a whole group dedicated to "software patents". The head of
>that group and an examiner from that group have been to more than one of
>the IEEE Intellectual Property Committee meetings -- I believe the first
>time they attended was two or three years ago. I therefore believe that
>you don't know of what you speak or we have a semantic misunderstanding.
It's nice to hand out titles and depts, how many people in this "whole
group" and how many of them have any credentials in the software area
(as is typical for other areas)? Just shuffling signs on peoples'
doors doesn't help. Do they make use of outside expertise (again, as
is done in other patent areas)? It's hard to believe there's any
expertise being used at all when patents like we've seen are being
handed out.
Sorry, I have 20 years of experience in this area, I can hold strong
and specific opinions, I understand a few of the issues (I realize
many here just sink into generalities as if we were all just babbling
about things we know little about, car mechanics and plastic surgeons
etc.) I really believe I have the credentials and experience to look
at a patent like the Compton's one and say ``this is absurd!'' and not
be merely spouting uneducated opinion.
>1. They do not have a searchable database of prior art in a form that can
>easily transmute between a prior "invention" and a patent application's
>invention. In a simple sense, they can't easily search through journals of
>the last 5-50 years and find "flow charts" of, for example, multimedia
>systems that clearly shows prior art.
Ok, so you go to someone(s) in the field and you ask what to look for
and where (not their opinion, tho that's good also, but where you
might find prior art up to the standard needed), as with anything.
This db would indeed be handy to have, but it's hardly necessary.
>2. It's a question of salaries. A senior examiner in the software group a
>couple of years ago was making in the low $30's -- that's with a BSCS
>degree and almost four years of experience. That is what the government
>pay scale allows, and this person was one of the more senior examiners!
Ok, fine, then shut it down and don't issue any more software patents
until it is fixed.
I mean, we can't discount the damage inherent here, right?
Would you keep an emergency room open staffed by undergrad bio
students because you couldn't afford doctors? Just tell the next of
kin "oh well, sorry, doctors are just *so* expensive these days, we
did the best we could with a $30K/yr staff."
At some point something has to give, the power to do damage is just
too great to chalk it up to insufficient budget and wash one's hands
of it.
I claim that the "damage" of just sitting on patent apps is far less
than letting people patent the use of surnames or zipcodes whatever
the heck they're doing right now, making a mockery of the whole
system.
Would it stand up in court if I defended against a patent claim that
it was only let thru by some pimply low-bid $30K/yr kid? No. The
issuance holds the full power of the law, etc.
>Look back to any other prior technological era and you will see these same
>statements about their technology. Maybe gasoline engines, or airframes,
>or pick-your-technology weren't changing as rapidly as ours, but... they
>all had the same problem. This is NOT unique wrt software!
We can always equate this with that, it's so facile.
My point hardly rests (or cares) on this having happened or not
happened before. If you were lying bloody on the street I could point
out that people have lay bloody on the street before, I think you'd
find it small comfort however.
I know about my field, and my business area, and if it's causing
damage (and I think it is) then I get to complain and try to get it
fixed. Do you think people generally should be placated by hearing
that crazy things have happened before?
>Why do you not include those companies have done with their patents in your
>complaint?
Sorry, this isn't a sentence and I really can't figure out what it's
trying to say.
Do you mean "what those companies have done"???
Anyhow, I'm not going to guess.
>And what about the decisions in courts that were wrong? It is
>NOT just the PTO!!!
I don't understand your point Glenn, I really don't. I'll just refer
back to my "lying bloody in the street" analogy.
What exactly is this, a call to apathy? Someone got screwed over
before so get used to it???
>Do you use a Hayes compatible modem? If so, then why
>didn't you flat out refuse to support them if you felt the Hayes patent was
>wrong?
Hey, I've never bought a Hayes modem in my life, compatible, sure,
they all are (not a flip statement, I've bought hundreds of modems in
my life, I have almost 200 right here in my office!)
But I've followed this software patent scene for almost a decade, the
Hayes thing didn't escape me (pardon the expression), I'm not sure it
was quite as damaging as some of the others except in practice (i.e.
something else could have been devised a lot more easily than with
many of these patents like the XOR cursor patent or "natural order
computation" patent, or some of the incredible breadth with which RSA
is trying to apply their encryption patent, in that last case I don't
begrudge them *some* sort of patent, and one that pays a lot of money,
they deserve it, but they've attempted to broaden it beyond all
rationality, I've heard some first-hand stories from other business
owners who have tried to deal with them that would make your flesh
peel from your bones.)
>Why not argue that the legal system (mainly our litigious nature)
>is the problem?
It often is the problem.
However, the response to seeing a good bar brawl (what business
generally is anyhow) is *not* for the govt to come in and hand out
more weapons for people to bash each other with.
-Barry Shein
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