[2262] in Commercialization & Privatization of the Internet
SLIPing Questions and Answers
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Brian Lloyd)
Mon Feb 3 14:22:09 1992
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 11:13:25 PST
From: brian@lloyd.com (Brian Lloyd)
To: bzs@world.std.com
Cc: vjs@rhyolite.wpd.sgi.com, com-priv@psi.com
In-Reply-To: Barry Shein's message of Mon, 3 Feb 92 00:44:41 -0500 <9202030544.AA21821@world.std.com>
Reply-To: brian@lloyd.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 00:44:41 -0500
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
For example, given the school setting, what good is telnet if you have
nowhere to telnet to? Does your average 13 year old have accounts to
telnet to? No.
So why do you use telnet as an example? Other than perhaps telnetting
to a library catalog I can't imagine what they'd much use telnet for.
I think they should have telnet, but it's not very representative of
what they might be doing.
Then what good is a terminal server? Dial-up or dedicated lines that
support IP/TCP for FTP, NNTP, and other applications makes sense.
Terminal servers do not.
>Doing dial-up IP is not so hard and it is getting easier all the time.
Assuming you have enough "system" on the local end.
My model requires an IBM PC/Classic with one floppy drive at the
school or library, or a Mac/128 with one floppy. Heck, it would work
with $50 dumb terminals. And a free copy of procomm or telix or
redryder or whatever.
You can run IP over the aforementioned devices.
Do you know of a decent SLIP/PPP implementation for Apple-II's? That's
what you'll find in a lot of those schools. My model works with them
also.
Well, Phil Karn's first IP version ran on a Z80 so I suppose that it
is possible to do a lightweight IP stack on an Apple][ but I am not
aware of one right now.
Or were you planning on sneaking in Unix workstations or high-end PC's
onto every desk as a zero-cost budget item?
Well, both are becoming quite inexpensive these days. I suspect that
you can get classic PCs, Sun 3's, IBM RT's, etc., donated to the
schools. The cost here is finding trained people to run them tho.
The point is that my plan walks in with a 56kb line, a DSU/CSU, and a
terminal server, set up once. And you wire all the serial ports to the
terminal server, hand out some freeware terminal emulator floppies,
and yer done, basically.
Again, what does the TS talk to?
All the students and teachers have to worry about is how to make use
of the software, how to type in "rn<RET>" or "mail friend". Where is
the mail software in your plan?
In the PC. They can use one as a mail drop (that is built into KA9Q
along with a POP server).
In your model you get 8 phone lines, 8 modems, and wire them to what?
I assume you set up a local area network between the 32 seats?
I misunderstood that you were suggesting putting the TS in the
classroom. Of course you wire up the room as a LAN.
Was that supposed to be free? Or easy to manage? As easy as 32
D-connectors?
And what kind of net is this? An ethernet? So we buy 32 ethernet
cards? Do they have ethernet cards for all the systems you're likely
to find? I know they all have serial ports (or, in the case of an
Apple-II, can be had for about $25.)
Ok, so you have your version all set up.
Now what do we do?
Is there a local mail server? Ooops, another expensive local box, more
local administration. More backups by local people (and restores if
things go wrong.)
Where is netnews? Conferencing software? IRC for XT's and Apple-II's?
Who will run all that? Who will upgrade the software when necessary?
Who will figure out why each little piece is not working when it
invariably stops working?
SLIP, per se, gets you nowhere, it's a red herring. I don't care if
it's hard or easy. You get it all nicely set up and you get this:
telnet someplace.i.dont.have.an.account
Login:
doesn't sound like much fun to me.
>Therefore, if the school or library has
>trouble with that, they probably are unable to get their PC to do
>anything anyway and IP/SLIP/PPP is the least of their problems.
I disagree, how do I get SLIP etc working on an Apple-II, XT, etc?
And what does it get me?
I think you're wildly hand-waving all the real costs. Sit down and
make like you really had to do it and work out the details, including
imagining the facilities that these desktops are supposed to get at.
I have around 800 people here at World using the net all the time,
using plain old terminal-type service. They read news, use e-mail,
ftp, up/download with things like zmodem or kermit, search GBs of
archives, use IRC, read manual pages, etc etc etc. They even use
multi-window'd programs etc.
And 98% of them don't know a thing about IP nor ever have to deal with
any of the above when it breaks.
Actually it really doesn't matter whether the link runs SLIP, PPP, or
a dumb ascii terminal. You make a good point about needing the
servers. Your model must have them remote somewhere. As I pointed
out, KA9Q (free for educational purposes) has FTP, TELNET, NNTP, POP,
and SMTP clients and servers. It is free, runs on any PC, including
the old 8088 powered critters with nothing more than a single 360K
floppy drive. There are also versions that run on the Amiga and the
Mac. Whoever would configure your terminal server could configure the
PC. And if you have a PC with a hard disk, it can act as router AND
server -- for free.
Don't sell SLIP/PPP short tho'. A V.32bis/V.42/V.42bis modem is as
cheap as a 56K dsu/csu and you do not incur the recurring line costs
for a dial-up link. The dial-up link will provide about 0.5 the
capacity of the 56K line. All the talk boils down to how to SUPPORT
the user base. Not trivial no matter how you do it.
Let's take this off line or create a splinter mailing list to discuss
how do low-cost services to schools and other low-budget operations.
I suspect that most people here on com-priv want to go back to ANS,
PSI, CERFNet, or Alternet bashing anyway. :-)
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN Lloyd & Associates
Principal and Network Architect 3420 Sudbury Road
brian@lloyd.com Cameron Park, CA 95682
voice (916) 676-1147 -or- (415) 725-1392
