[2252] in Commercialization & Privatization of the Internet
SLIPing Questions and Answers
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Barry Shein)
Mon Feb 3 00:48:28 1992
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 00:44:41 -0500
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
To: brian@lloyd.com
Cc: vjs@rhyolite.wpd.sgi.com, com-priv@psi.com
In-Reply-To: Brian Lloyd's message of Sun, 2 Feb 92 20:35:51 PST <9202030435.AA19353@ray.lloyd.com>
>From: brian@lloyd.com (Brian Lloyd) [responding to me]
> Or do we now have 32 SLIP lines going into that classroom? And what's
> the cost of *that*???
>
>No more than that cost of 32 dumb dial-up lines and probably less
>because you can run more than one person on one of those links. In my
>experience you can run three or four telnet sessions over a single
>V.32/V.42/V.42bis link without significant impact on the users. Now
>the cost to 32 users drops precipitously because now you only need 8
>modems and phone lines.
I never spec'd 32 modems, so you're comparing apples and oranges. I
don't have any modems, per se. I have a single 56kb DSU/CSU and a
terminal server, and no metered phone lines.
>So Barry, the terminal server approach is not necessarily the best.
Best? You mean cost? Or functionally? I think we need parts lists
here, budgets. And a list of what it will support, what they will do
with all this, in general terms.
For example, given the school setting, what good is telnet if you have
nowhere to telnet to? Does your average 13 year old have accounts to
telnet to? No.
So why do you use telnet as an example? Other than perhaps telnetting
to a library catalog I can't imagine what they'd much use telnet for.
I think they should have telnet, but it's not very representative of
what they might be doing.
>Doing dial-up IP is not so hard and it is getting easier all the time.
Assuming you have enough "system" on the local end.
My model requires an IBM PC/Classic with one floppy drive at the
school or library, or a Mac/128 with one floppy. Heck, it would work
with $50 dumb terminals. And a free copy of procomm or telix or
redryder or whatever.
Do you know of a decent SLIP/PPP implementation for Apple-II's? That's
what you'll find in a lot of those schools. My model works with them
also.
Or were you planning on sneaking in Unix workstations or high-end PC's
onto every desk as a zero-cost budget item?
The point is that my plan walks in with a 56kb line, a DSU/CSU, and a
terminal server, set up once. And you wire all the serial ports to the
terminal server, hand out some freeware terminal emulator floppies,
and yer done, basically.
All the students and teachers have to worry about is how to make use
of the software, how to type in "rn<RET>" or "mail friend". Where is
the mail software in your plan?
In your model you get 8 phone lines, 8 modems, and wire them to what?
I assume you set up a local area network between the 32 seats?
Was that supposed to be free? Or easy to manage? As easy as 32
D-connectors?
And what kind of net is this? An ethernet? So we buy 32 ethernet
cards? Do they have ethernet cards for all the systems you're likely
to find? I know they all have serial ports (or, in the case of an
Apple-II, can be had for about $25.)
Ok, so you have your version all set up.
Now what do we do?
Is there a local mail server? Ooops, another expensive local box, more
local administration. More backups by local people (and restores if
things go wrong.)
Where is netnews? Conferencing software? IRC for XT's and Apple-II's?
Who will run all that? Who will upgrade the software when necessary?
Who will figure out why each little piece is not working when it
invariably stops working?
SLIP, per se, gets you nowhere, it's a red herring. I don't care if
it's hard or easy. You get it all nicely set up and you get this:
telnet someplace.i.dont.have.an.account
Login:
doesn't sound like much fun to me.
>Therefore, if the school or library has
>trouble with that, they probably are unable to get their PC to do
>anything anyway and IP/SLIP/PPP is the least of their problems.
I disagree, how do I get SLIP etc working on an Apple-II, XT, etc?
And what does it get me?
I think you're wildly hand-waving all the real costs. Sit down and
make like you really had to do it and work out the details, including
imagining the facilities that these desktops are supposed to get at.
I have around 800 people here at World using the net all the time,
using plain old terminal-type service. They read news, use e-mail,
ftp, up/download with things like zmodem or kermit, search GBs of
archives, use IRC, read manual pages, etc etc etc. They even use
multi-window'd programs etc.
And 98% of them don't know a thing about IP nor ever have to deal with
any of the above when it breaks.
-Barry Shein
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