[16829] in athena10
Re: Debathena entry in the SIPB project roles document
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Benjamin Kaduk)
Fri Sep 20 21:08:00 2019
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 20:07:34 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Jonathon Weiss <jweiss@mit.edu>
CC: Jonathan Reed <jdreed@gmail.com>, "andrew m. boardman" <amb@mit.edu>,
Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@ldpreload.com>,
Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu>,
Alex Chernyakhovsky <alex@achernya.com>, debathena <debathena@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20190921010733.GI15382@kduck.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1909201937390.2317@neural-implant.mit.edu>
I believe that as of (upstream) OpenAFS 1.8.1, python-afs should be able to
build. We might have to go through some hoops to get openafs from the PPA
in the build chroot to build python-afs, though.
-Ben
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 07:41:43PM -0400, Jonathon Weiss wrote:
> I'm willing to believe python-afs is right.
>
> I looked at the docs at http://athena10.mit.edu/trac/wiki#Developers and couldn't figure out how moira sources would be imported. If there are other docs (or a specific section of these docs) that explains it, I'd appreciate it if Jon, or anyone else, sent me a pointer.
>
> Jonathon
>
> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 06:13:03PM -0400, Jonathon Weiss wrote:
> >> To answer a series of questions I've seen asked:
> >
> > To answer highly-specific points without awareness of the broader context
> > they lie within...
> >
> >> charon4 (currently running SIPB DNS, though I may migrate some other things from charon to it) is an XVM machine runing Debathena-login on 16.04. It would be nice if it was easy to update to 18.04 sometime in the next 18 months. There may be other SIPB services, I don't know. I'm sure there must be some other dorm and lab machines running Debathena, but I don't know how many. I have a VM runing login-graphical on 16.04, though that's arguably part of my job.
> >>
> >> I don't think there is very much value in debathena-workstation or debathena-cluster these days, or at least not much relative to the amount of effort I expect they require.
> >>
> >> Cluster is still running 14.04 (desupported 4/2019). I believe IS&T is slowly replacing those machines with Macs (I think with a Debathna VM of some sort on them), but I'm not fully in the loop there.
> >>
> >> If SIPB folks want to talk to IS&T folks, I believe I can make the connection with the right people on the IS&T side.
> >>
> >> From my standpoint, I think the two most useful short term tasks for Debathena are:
> >>
> >> 1) Fix the package, I'm blanking on which one it is, that FTBFS for bionic / 18.04 and makes debathena-login uninstallable there (without hackery)
> >
> > I think this was/is python-afs.
> >
> >> 2) Import new moira sources and rebuild moira, or possibly better, document the procedure for re-importing moira from upstream (I think that re-building is documented)
> >
> > My recollection was that jdreed had documented the moira-import procedure,
> > though I don't have time to look for it right now.
> >
> > -Ben
> >
> >> -- Jonathon
> >>
> >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Jonathan Reed wrote:
> >>
> >>> The flip side of this is that unless somebody did a bunch of work I
> >>> don't know about, cluster is still Trusty. While it's true you can
> >>> still install it, at some point, we'll be doing the community a
> >>> disservice by letting them install an obsolete release of Debathena in
> >>> a configuration which implies it's supported by IS&T.
> >>>
> >>> I am also equally as close to campus as Andrew, and happy to
> >>> participate in a brain dump / training session some weekend. But I
> >>> agree with Geoff, that I think it would be useful for current SIPB
> >>> leadership / active members to reach out to IS&T and understand the
> >>> 6-18 month roadmap for "Athena", including: IS&T-maintained clusters,
> >>> DLC-maintained clusters, AFS, etc. I'm not sure how to start that
> >>> conversation. Oliver Thomas has left IS&T, but is still at MIT, and
> >>> is a good resource for finding out who to talk to.
> >>>
> >>> One of the key benefits of Debathena was that it was a ca-2009
> >>> rethinking from the ground up of integrating the MIT environment into
> >>> a modern Linux distribution. It did away with a lot of vestiges of
> >>> Athena's history, while retaining core functionality. After 10
> >>> years, I think it makes sense to re-evaluate that. For example, it's
> >>> quite clear at this point that "sendbug" should be launched into the
> >>> sun. Does the Kerberos/Hesiod dance still make sense, or should we
> >>> pursue LDAP authentication instead? Is there any benefit in
> >>> continuing to supporting AFS as a homedir, or should it just be a
> >>> mountpoint? (Those are all questions new maintainers should ask
> >>> themselves, they need not be answered in this thread).
> >>>
> >>> IS&T did not have the luxury of being able to make sweeping changes,
> >>> because people would complain bitterly about any sort of change.
> >>> SIPB is well positioned to be able to make sweeping changes and retire
> >>> a lot of technical debt. (Which isn't to say that a lot of people
> >>> won't come out of the woodwork and still bitterly complain about
> >>> change, but I'd encourage the recipients of those complaints to break
> >>> them down into categories of "current student", "current staff",
> >>> "faculty", and "other").
> >>>
> >>> I'd love to see Debathena driven by current students who use it, but I
> >>> think there's definitely a bootstrapping problem here. It's very hard
> >>> to find students who have the necessary skills, free time, and
> >>> motivation. Retiring a lot of the technical debt around
> >>> debathena-workstation and debathena-cluster will likely help there.
> >>>
> >>> -Jon
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:44 AM andrew m. boardman <amb@mit.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> There are still public debathena machines on campus, but I'm not sure
> >>>> offhand of the detailed state of the clusters. (xcluster.mit.edu shows
> >>>> some.) There's still community mindshare about it otherwise, though; I
> >>>> know there are cluster-config machines scattered around student groups
> >>>> and the like as well because I get pinged about maintaining them
> >>>> occasionally, and the PXE installer still works.
> >>>>
> >>>> That seems to be something interesting and worth keeping, but I'm biased.
> >>>> I am next to campus and willing to help people spin up though.
> >>>>
> >>>> andrew
> >>>>
> >>>> Geoffrey Thomas writes:
> >>>>> I guess my question is, does it make sense to revive Debathena, or does it m=
> >>>>> ake more sense to effectively start a new project with the same goals of "ac=
> >>>>> cess Athena services from your non-IS&T-run Linux machine" and have that use=
> >>>>> Debathena code where helpful?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm certainly happy to help where I can be helpful, but, like, I don't even k=
> >>>>> now if the clusters still exist, I don't think I'm the right person to say w=
> >>>>> hat ought to be done with Debathena :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --=20
> >>>>> Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)
> >>>>> geofft@ldpreload.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sep 18, 2019, at 00:36, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> On further consideration, I don't think it makes sense for me to be part o=
> >>>>> f composing this entry, since I'm not part of the project, so I'll leave the=
> >>>>> rest of you to it.
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Here's the document to put your entry into, in case you haven't gotten the=
> >>>>> link yet from elsewhere: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76=
> >>>>> wZU5XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Cel
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> On Sep 18, 2019 00:09, Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@ldpreload.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Are students still interested in Debathena for personal machines? (Or woul=
> >>>>> d there be more interest in Archathena or whatever people use these days?) W=
> >>>>> e had Debathena as a SIPB-only project before any IS&T backing, and that was=
> >>>>> largely driven by what OSes people were running themselves and what package=
> >>>>> s they wanted - Kerberos and AFS config, Moira, printing and email back when=
> >>>>> that was relevant, etc., but not login config quite as much. Ignore the ins=
> >>>>> taller, ignore reactivate, etc.
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> It might make sense as a first task/responsibility to figure out what part=
> >>>>> s of Debathena people are interested in using, and focus on getting those bu=
> >>>>> ilt for current Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc. releases, instead of planning to rev=
> >>>>> ive Debathena as a whole.
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Are there other SIPB projects running Debian that need an up-to-date debat=
> >>>>> hena-standard or -login? Are there dorm or lab servers that want debathena-l=
> >>>>> ogin?
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> --=20
> >>>>>> Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)
> >>>>>> geofft@ldpreload.com
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> On Sep 17, 2019, at 23:40, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Are any of the current maintainers going to have the time to facilitate br=
> >>>>> inging someone up to speed who doesn't expect to have to do most of the work=
> >>>>> of bringing themself up to speed?
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> If so, what do the requirements of someone to be a suitable candidate look=
> >>>>> like to you?
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> On Sep 17, 2019 23:34, Alex Chernyakhovsky <alex@achernya.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> You're not going to get traction by telling students they need to "revive"=
> >>>>> the project up front. Whether Debathena should be revived is a different is=
> >>>>> sue as IS&T no longer has staff that work on it full time or use for it outs=
> >>>>> ide of the dialups.
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>>> -Alex
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:28 PM Cel Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi debathena maintainers,
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> My current understanding is that the main thing we need to get
> >>>>>> Debathena maintained by current students again (assuming that this is
> >>>>>> what we want) is to find a current student with appropriate skills to
> >>>>>> join the project and drive its revival, in the same way as what I've
> >>>>>> been doing with Scripts.
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> I wrote a suggested entry for the new SIPB project roles document, which
> >>>>>> reads as follows:
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> ** SIPB Debathena **
> >>>>>> Contact: debathena@mit.edu
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Debathena is a long-established SIPB project that maintains the
> >>>>>> operating system used by MIT=E2=80=99s athena clusters, and made available=
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>> installation on group and personal computers. Currently, it does not
> >>>>>> have any students actively maintaining it, and is entirely maintained
> >>>>>> by alumni in their copious free time.
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Roles:
> >>>>>> * Project Reviver: work on becoming the first new student maintainer
> >>>>>> of Debathena in the past few years, by coordinating with previous
> >>>>>> maintainers, learning how the system works, dealing with code
> >>>>>> improvements and bugfixes, and bringing new students up to speed.
> >>>>>> * Prereqs: significant experience installing and using Linux,
> >>>>>> significant experience with the Linux command line, previous
> >>>>>> programming experience, strong communication skills, strong sense
> >>>>>> of self-motivation
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> ------
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you'd like me
> >>>>>> to change? You are also welcome to throw this out entirely and put
> >>>>>> whatever you want in the document; I'm suggesting this to try to make
> >>>>>> sure we have something for Debathena.
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> ~ Cel
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --Apple-Mail-8BF914E7-9664-4538-B49E-CB5FC70137A7
> >>>>> Content-Type: text/html;
> >>>>> charset=utf-8
> >>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <html><head>
> >>>>> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></=
> >>>>> head><body dir=3D"auto">I guess my question is, does it make sense to reviv=
> >>>>> e Debathena, or does it make more sense to effectively start a new project =
> >>>>> with the same goals of "access Athena services from your non-IS&T-=
> >>>>> run Linux machine" and have that use Debathena code where helpful?<br>=
> >>>>> <br>I'm certainly happy to help where I can be helpful, but, like, I don't =
> >>>>> even know if the clusters still exist, I don't think I'm the right person t=
> >>>>> o say what ought to be done with Debathena :)<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSi=
> >>>>> gnature" dir=3D"ltr">-- <div>Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)</div><div><a=
> >>>>> href=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a></div></div><=
> >>>>> div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Sep 18, 2019, at 00:36, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <<a =
> >>>>> href=3D"mailto:cela@mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><bloc=
> >>>>> kquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
> >>>>> <div>
> >>>>> <div style=3D"" dir=3D"auto">On further consideration, I don't think it mak=
> >>>>> es sense for me to be part of composing this entry, since I'm not part of t=
> >>>>> he project, so I'll leave the rest of you to it.</div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D""><br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Here's the document to put your entry into, in=
> >>>>> case you haven't gotten the link yet from elsewhere: <a href=3D"https=
> >>>>> ://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76wZU5XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/=
> >>>>> edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76wZU5=
> >>>>> XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk</a></div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D""><br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Cheers,</div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Cel</div>
> >>>>> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
> >>>>> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sep 18, 2019 00:09, Geoffrey Thomas <<a hr=
> >>>>> ef=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a>> wrote:<br t=
> >>>>> ype=3D"attribution">
> >>>>> <blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
> >>>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">Are students still interested in Debathena for personal m=
> >>>>> achines? (Or would there be more interest in Archathena or whatever people =
> >>>>> use these days?) We had Debathena as a SIPB-only project before any IS&=
> >>>>> T backing, and that was largely driven
> >>>>> by what OSes people were running themselves and what packages they wanted =
> >>>>> - Kerberos and AFS config, Moira, printing and email back when that was rel=
> >>>>> evant, etc., but not login config quite as much. Ignore the installer, igno=
> >>>>> re reactivate, etc.
> >>>>> <div><br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <div>It might make sense as a first task/responsibility to figure out what =
> >>>>> parts of Debathena people are interested in using, and focus on getting tho=
> >>>>> se built for current Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc. releases, instead of planning =
> >>>>> to revive Debathena as a whole.</div>
> >>>>> <div><br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <div>Are there other SIPB projects running Debian that need an up-to-date d=
> >>>>> ebathena-standard or -login? Are there dorm or lab servers that want debath=
> >>>>> ena-login?</div>
> >>>>> <div>
> >>>>> <div>
> >>>>> <div><br>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">--
> >>>>> <div>Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)</div>
> >>>>> <div><a href=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a></div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
> >>>>> On Sep 17, 2019, at 23:40, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <<a href=3D"mailto:cela@=
> >>>>> mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <blockquote>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
> >>>>> <div>Are any of the current maintainers going to have the time to facilitat=
> >>>>> e bringing someone up to speed who doesn't expect to have to do most of the=
> >>>>> work of bringing themself up to speed?</div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">If so, what do the requirements of someone to be a suitab=
> >>>>> le candidate look like to you?</div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
> >>>>> <div class=3D"elided-text">On Sep 17, 2019 23:34, Alex Chernyakhovsky <<=
> >>>>> a href=3D"mailto:alex@achernya.com">alex@achernya.com</a>> wrote:<br typ=
> >>>>> e=3D"attribution">
> >>>>> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
> >>>>> left:1ex">
> >>>>> <div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">You're not going to get traction by telling students they=
> >>>>> need to "revive" the project up front. Whether Debathena should =
> >>>>> be revived is a different issue as IS&T no longer has staff that work o=
> >>>>> n it full time or use for it outside of the dialups.
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">Sincerely,</div>
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">-Alex</div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <div class=3D"elided-text">
> >>>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:28 PM Cel Skeggs <<a href=3D"m=
> >>>>> ailto:cela@mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
> >>>>> left:1ex">
> >>>>> Hi debathena maintainers,<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> My current understanding is that the main thing we need to get<br>
> >>>>> Debathena maintained by current students again (assuming that this is<br>
> >>>>> what we want) is to find a current student with appropriate skills to<br>
> >>>>> join the project and drive its revival, in the same way as what I've<br>
> >>>>> been doing with Scripts.<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> I wrote a suggested entry for the new SIPB project roles document, which<br=
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> reads as follows:<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> ** SIPB Debathena **<br>
> >>>>> Contact: <a href=3D"mailto:debathena@mit.edu">debathena@mit.edu</a><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> Debathena is a long-established SIPB project that maintains the<br>
> >>>>> operating system used by MIT=E2=80=99s athena clusters, and made available =
> >>>>> for<br>
> >>>>> installation on group and personal computers. Currently, it does not<br>
> >>>>> have any students actively maintaining it, and is entirely maintained<br>
> >>>>> by alumni in their copious free time.<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> Roles:<br>
> >>>>> * Project Reviver: work on becoming the first new student maintainer<=
> >>>>> br>
> >>>>> of Debathena in the past few years, by coordinating with previ=
> >>>>> ous<br>
> >>>>> maintainers, learning how the system works, dealing with code<=
> >>>>> br>
> >>>>> improvements and bugfixes, and bringing new students up to spe=
> >>>>> ed.<br>
> >>>>> * Prereqs: significant experience installing and using Linux,=
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> significant experience with the Linux command line, pr=
> >>>>> evious<br>
> >>>>> programming experience, strong communication skills, s=
> >>>>> trong sense<br>
> >>>>> of self-motivation<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> ------<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you'd like me<br>
> >>>>> to change? You are also welcome to throw this out entirely and put<br>
> >>>>> whatever you want in the document; I'm suggesting this to try to make<br>
> >>>>> sure we have something for Debathena.<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> Cheers,<br>
> >>>>> ~ Cel<br>
> >>>>> </blockquote>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </blockquote>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </blockquote>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </blockquote>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>> </div>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> </div></blockquote></body></html>=
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --Apple-Mail-8BF914E7-9664-4538-B49E-CB5FC70137A7--
> >
>
>
> Jonathon
