[16826] in athena10
Re: Debathena entry in the SIPB project roles document
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jonathon Weiss)
Fri Sep 20 19:41:58 2019
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 19:41:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathon Weiss <jweiss@mit.edu>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: Jonathan Reed <jdreed@gmail.com>, "andrew m. boardman" <amb@mit.edu>,
Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@ldpreload.com>,
Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu>,
Alex Chernyakhovsky <alex@achernya.com>, debathena <debathena@mit.edu>,
Jonathon Weiss <jweiss@mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <20190919223230.GE48975@kduck.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1909201937390.2317@neural-implant.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
I'm willing to believe python-afs is right.
I looked at the docs at http://athena10.mit.edu/trac/wiki#Developers and couldn't figure out how moira sources would be imported. If there are other docs (or a specific section of these docs) that explains it, I'd appreciate it if Jon, or anyone else, sent me a pointer.
Jonathon
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 06:13:03PM -0400, Jonathon Weiss wrote:
>> To answer a series of questions I've seen asked:
>
> To answer highly-specific points without awareness of the broader context
> they lie within...
>
>> charon4 (currently running SIPB DNS, though I may migrate some other things from charon to it) is an XVM machine runing Debathena-login on 16.04. It would be nice if it was easy to update to 18.04 sometime in the next 18 months. There may be other SIPB services, I don't know. I'm sure there must be some other dorm and lab machines running Debathena, but I don't know how many. I have a VM runing login-graphical on 16.04, though that's arguably part of my job.
>>
>> I don't think there is very much value in debathena-workstation or debathena-cluster these days, or at least not much relative to the amount of effort I expect they require.
>>
>> Cluster is still running 14.04 (desupported 4/2019). I believe IS&T is slowly replacing those machines with Macs (I think with a Debathna VM of some sort on them), but I'm not fully in the loop there.
>>
>> If SIPB folks want to talk to IS&T folks, I believe I can make the connection with the right people on the IS&T side.
>>
>> From my standpoint, I think the two most useful short term tasks for Debathena are:
>>
>> 1) Fix the package, I'm blanking on which one it is, that FTBFS for bionic / 18.04 and makes debathena-login uninstallable there (without hackery)
>
> I think this was/is python-afs.
>
>> 2) Import new moira sources and rebuild moira, or possibly better, document the procedure for re-importing moira from upstream (I think that re-building is documented)
>
> My recollection was that jdreed had documented the moira-import procedure,
> though I don't have time to look for it right now.
>
> -Ben
>
>> -- Jonathon
>>
>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Jonathan Reed wrote:
>>
>>> The flip side of this is that unless somebody did a bunch of work I
>>> don't know about, cluster is still Trusty. While it's true you can
>>> still install it, at some point, we'll be doing the community a
>>> disservice by letting them install an obsolete release of Debathena in
>>> a configuration which implies it's supported by IS&T.
>>>
>>> I am also equally as close to campus as Andrew, and happy to
>>> participate in a brain dump / training session some weekend. But I
>>> agree with Geoff, that I think it would be useful for current SIPB
>>> leadership / active members to reach out to IS&T and understand the
>>> 6-18 month roadmap for "Athena", including: IS&T-maintained clusters,
>>> DLC-maintained clusters, AFS, etc. I'm not sure how to start that
>>> conversation. Oliver Thomas has left IS&T, but is still at MIT, and
>>> is a good resource for finding out who to talk to.
>>>
>>> One of the key benefits of Debathena was that it was a ca-2009
>>> rethinking from the ground up of integrating the MIT environment into
>>> a modern Linux distribution. It did away with a lot of vestiges of
>>> Athena's history, while retaining core functionality. After 10
>>> years, I think it makes sense to re-evaluate that. For example, it's
>>> quite clear at this point that "sendbug" should be launched into the
>>> sun. Does the Kerberos/Hesiod dance still make sense, or should we
>>> pursue LDAP authentication instead? Is there any benefit in
>>> continuing to supporting AFS as a homedir, or should it just be a
>>> mountpoint? (Those are all questions new maintainers should ask
>>> themselves, they need not be answered in this thread).
>>>
>>> IS&T did not have the luxury of being able to make sweeping changes,
>>> because people would complain bitterly about any sort of change.
>>> SIPB is well positioned to be able to make sweeping changes and retire
>>> a lot of technical debt. (Which isn't to say that a lot of people
>>> won't come out of the woodwork and still bitterly complain about
>>> change, but I'd encourage the recipients of those complaints to break
>>> them down into categories of "current student", "current staff",
>>> "faculty", and "other").
>>>
>>> I'd love to see Debathena driven by current students who use it, but I
>>> think there's definitely a bootstrapping problem here. It's very hard
>>> to find students who have the necessary skills, free time, and
>>> motivation. Retiring a lot of the technical debt around
>>> debathena-workstation and debathena-cluster will likely help there.
>>>
>>> -Jon
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:44 AM andrew m. boardman <amb@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There are still public debathena machines on campus, but I'm not sure
>>>> offhand of the detailed state of the clusters. (xcluster.mit.edu shows
>>>> some.) There's still community mindshare about it otherwise, though; I
>>>> know there are cluster-config machines scattered around student groups
>>>> and the like as well because I get pinged about maintaining them
>>>> occasionally, and the PXE installer still works.
>>>>
>>>> That seems to be something interesting and worth keeping, but I'm biased.
>>>> I am next to campus and willing to help people spin up though.
>>>>
>>>> andrew
>>>>
>>>> Geoffrey Thomas writes:
>>>>> I guess my question is, does it make sense to revive Debathena, or does it m=
>>>>> ake more sense to effectively start a new project with the same goals of "ac=
>>>>> cess Athena services from your non-IS&T-run Linux machine" and have that use=
>>>>> Debathena code where helpful?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm certainly happy to help where I can be helpful, but, like, I don't even k=
>>>>> now if the clusters still exist, I don't think I'm the right person to say w=
>>>>> hat ought to be done with Debathena :)
>>>>>
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)
>>>>> geofft@ldpreload.com
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2019, at 00:36, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On further consideration, I don't think it makes sense for me to be part o=
>>>>> f composing this entry, since I'm not part of the project, so I'll leave the=
>>>>> rest of you to it.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Here's the document to put your entry into, in case you haven't gotten the=
>>>>> link yet from elsewhere: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76=
>>>>> wZU5XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Cel
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2019 00:09, Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@ldpreload.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Are students still interested in Debathena for personal machines? (Or woul=
>>>>> d there be more interest in Archathena or whatever people use these days?) W=
>>>>> e had Debathena as a SIPB-only project before any IS&T backing, and that was=
>>>>> largely driven by what OSes people were running themselves and what package=
>>>>> s they wanted - Kerberos and AFS config, Moira, printing and email back when=
>>>>> that was relevant, etc., but not login config quite as much. Ignore the ins=
>>>>> taller, ignore reactivate, etc.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> It might make sense as a first task/responsibility to figure out what part=
>>>>> s of Debathena people are interested in using, and focus on getting those bu=
>>>>> ilt for current Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc. releases, instead of planning to rev=
>>>>> ive Debathena as a whole.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Are there other SIPB projects running Debian that need an up-to-date debat=
>>>>> hena-standard or -login? Are there dorm or lab servers that want debathena-l=
>>>>> ogin?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)
>>>>>> geofft@ldpreload.com
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2019, at 23:40, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Are any of the current maintainers going to have the time to facilitate br=
>>>>> inging someone up to speed who doesn't expect to have to do most of the work=
>>>>> of bringing themself up to speed?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> If so, what do the requirements of someone to be a suitable candidate look=
>>>>> like to you?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2019 23:34, Alex Chernyakhovsky <alex@achernya.com> wrote:
>>>>>> You're not going to get traction by telling students they need to "revive"=
>>>>> the project up front. Whether Debathena should be revived is a different is=
>>>>> sue as IS&T no longer has staff that work on it full time or use for it outs=
>>>>> ide of the dialups.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> -Alex
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:28 PM Cel Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi debathena maintainers,
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> My current understanding is that the main thing we need to get
>>>>>> Debathena maintained by current students again (assuming that this is
>>>>>> what we want) is to find a current student with appropriate skills to
>>>>>> join the project and drive its revival, in the same way as what I've
>>>>>> been doing with Scripts.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I wrote a suggested entry for the new SIPB project roles document, which
>>>>>> reads as follows:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> ** SIPB Debathena **
>>>>>> Contact: debathena@mit.edu
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Debathena is a long-established SIPB project that maintains the
>>>>>> operating system used by MIT=E2=80=99s athena clusters, and made available=
>>>>> for
>>>>>> installation on group and personal computers. Currently, it does not
>>>>>> have any students actively maintaining it, and is entirely maintained
>>>>>> by alumni in their copious free time.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Roles:
>>>>>> * Project Reviver: work on becoming the first new student maintainer
>>>>>> of Debathena in the past few years, by coordinating with previous
>>>>>> maintainers, learning how the system works, dealing with code
>>>>>> improvements and bugfixes, and bringing new students up to speed.
>>>>>> * Prereqs: significant experience installing and using Linux,
>>>>>> significant experience with the Linux command line, previous
>>>>>> programming experience, strong communication skills, strong sense
>>>>>> of self-motivation
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> ------
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you'd like me
>>>>>> to change? You are also welcome to throw this out entirely and put
>>>>>> whatever you want in the document; I'm suggesting this to try to make
>>>>>> sure we have something for Debathena.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> ~ Cel
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>
>>>>> --Apple-Mail-8BF914E7-9664-4538-B49E-CB5FC70137A7
>>>>> Content-Type: text/html;
>>>>> charset=utf-8
>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>>>>
>>>>> <html><head>
>>>>> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></=
>>>>> head><body dir=3D"auto">I guess my question is, does it make sense to reviv=
>>>>> e Debathena, or does it make more sense to effectively start a new project =
>>>>> with the same goals of "access Athena services from your non-IS&T-=
>>>>> run Linux machine" and have that use Debathena code where helpful?<br>=
>>>>> <br>I'm certainly happy to help where I can be helpful, but, like, I don't =
>>>>> even know if the clusters still exist, I don't think I'm the right person t=
>>>>> o say what ought to be done with Debathena :)<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSi=
>>>>> gnature" dir=3D"ltr">-- <div>Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)</div><div><a=
>>>>> href=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a></div></div><=
>>>>> div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Sep 18, 2019, at 00:36, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <<a =
>>>>> href=3D"mailto:cela@mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><bloc=
>>>>> kquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
>>>>> <div>
>>>>> <div style=3D"" dir=3D"auto">On further consideration, I don't think it mak=
>>>>> es sense for me to be part of composing this entry, since I'm not part of t=
>>>>> he project, so I'll leave the rest of you to it.</div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D""><br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Here's the document to put your entry into, in=
>>>>> case you haven't gotten the link yet from elsewhere: <a href=3D"https=
>>>>> ://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76wZU5XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/=
>>>>> edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76wZU5=
>>>>> XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk</a></div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D""><br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Cheers,</div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Cel</div>
>>>>> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
>>>>> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sep 18, 2019 00:09, Geoffrey Thomas <<a hr=
>>>>> ef=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a>> wrote:<br t=
>>>>> ype=3D"attribution">
>>>>> <blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
>>>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">Are students still interested in Debathena for personal m=
>>>>> achines? (Or would there be more interest in Archathena or whatever people =
>>>>> use these days?) We had Debathena as a SIPB-only project before any IS&=
>>>>> T backing, and that was largely driven
>>>>> by what OSes people were running themselves and what packages they wanted =
>>>>> - Kerberos and AFS config, Moira, printing and email back when that was rel=
>>>>> evant, etc., but not login config quite as much. Ignore the installer, igno=
>>>>> re reactivate, etc.
>>>>> <div><br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <div>It might make sense as a first task/responsibility to figure out what =
>>>>> parts of Debathena people are interested in using, and focus on getting tho=
>>>>> se built for current Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc. releases, instead of planning =
>>>>> to revive Debathena as a whole.</div>
>>>>> <div><br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <div>Are there other SIPB projects running Debian that need an up-to-date d=
>>>>> ebathena-standard or -login? Are there dorm or lab servers that want debath=
>>>>> ena-login?</div>
>>>>> <div>
>>>>> <div>
>>>>> <div><br>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">--
>>>>> <div>Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)</div>
>>>>> <div><a href=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a></div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
>>>>> On Sep 17, 2019, at 23:40, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <<a href=3D"mailto:cela@=
>>>>> mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <blockquote>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
>>>>> <div>Are any of the current maintainers going to have the time to facilitat=
>>>>> e bringing someone up to speed who doesn't expect to have to do most of the=
>>>>> work of bringing themself up to speed?</div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">If so, what do the requirements of someone to be a suitab=
>>>>> le candidate look like to you?</div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
>>>>> <div class=3D"elided-text">On Sep 17, 2019 23:34, Alex Chernyakhovsky <<=
>>>>> a href=3D"mailto:alex@achernya.com">alex@achernya.com</a>> wrote:<br typ=
>>>>> e=3D"attribution">
>>>>> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
>>>>> left:1ex">
>>>>> <div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">You're not going to get traction by telling students they=
>>>>> need to "revive" the project up front. Whether Debathena should =
>>>>> be revived is a different issue as IS&T no longer has staff that work o=
>>>>> n it full time or use for it outside of the dialups.
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">Sincerely,</div>
>>>>> <div dir=3D"auto">-Alex</div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> <div class=3D"elided-text">
>>>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:28 PM Cel Skeggs <<a href=3D"m=
>>>>> ailto:cela@mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
>>>>> left:1ex">
>>>>> Hi debathena maintainers,<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> My current understanding is that the main thing we need to get<br>
>>>>> Debathena maintained by current students again (assuming that this is<br>
>>>>> what we want) is to find a current student with appropriate skills to<br>
>>>>> join the project and drive its revival, in the same way as what I've<br>
>>>>> been doing with Scripts.<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> I wrote a suggested entry for the new SIPB project roles document, which<br=
>>>>>>
>>>>> reads as follows:<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> ** SIPB Debathena **<br>
>>>>> Contact: <a href=3D"mailto:debathena@mit.edu">debathena@mit.edu</a><br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> Debathena is a long-established SIPB project that maintains the<br>
>>>>> operating system used by MIT=E2=80=99s athena clusters, and made available =
>>>>> for<br>
>>>>> installation on group and personal computers. Currently, it does not<br>
>>>>> have any students actively maintaining it, and is entirely maintained<br>
>>>>> by alumni in their copious free time.<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> Roles:<br>
>>>>> * Project Reviver: work on becoming the first new student maintainer<=
>>>>> br>
>>>>> of Debathena in the past few years, by coordinating with previ=
>>>>> ous<br>
>>>>> maintainers, learning how the system works, dealing with code<=
>>>>> br>
>>>>> improvements and bugfixes, and bringing new students up to spe=
>>>>> ed.<br>
>>>>> * Prereqs: significant experience installing and using Linux,=
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> significant experience with the Linux command line, pr=
>>>>> evious<br>
>>>>> programming experience, strong communication skills, s=
>>>>> trong sense<br>
>>>>> of self-motivation<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> ------<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you'd like me<br>
>>>>> to change? You are also welcome to throw this out entirely and put<br>
>>>>> whatever you want in the document; I'm suggesting this to try to make<br>
>>>>> sure we have something for Debathena.<br>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>>>> ~ Cel<br>
>>>>> </blockquote>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </blockquote>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </blockquote>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </blockquote>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> <br>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> </div></blockquote></body></html>=
>>>>>
>>>>> --Apple-Mail-8BF914E7-9664-4538-B49E-CB5FC70137A7--
>
Jonathon
