[16822] in athena10
Re: Debathena entry in the SIPB project roles document
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jonathon Weiss)
Thu Sep 19 18:13:53 2019
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 18:13:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathon Weiss <jweiss@mit.edu>
To: Jonathan Reed <jdreed@gmail.com>
CC: "andrew m. boardman" <amb@mit.edu>,
Geoffrey Thomas
<geofft@ldpreload.com>,
Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu>,
"Alex
Chernyakhovsky" <alex@achernya.com>,
debathena <debathena@mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <CADwaeHdNkGuPOSrYETtDy2F1rL-kro_nNu-Buu2Mo30+SkdsNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1909191812530.2317@neural-implant.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
To answer a series of questions I've seen asked:
charon4 (currently running SIPB DNS, though I may migrate some other things from charon to it) is an XVM machine runing Debathena-login on 16.04. It would be nice if it was easy to update to 18.04 sometime in the next 18 months. There may be other SIPB services, I don't know. I'm sure there must be some other dorm and lab machines running Debathena, but I don't know how many. I have a VM runing login-graphical on 16.04, though that's arguably part of my job.
I don't think there is very much value in debathena-workstation or debathena-cluster these days, or at least not much relative to the amount of effort I expect they require.
Cluster is still running 14.04 (desupported 4/2019). I believe IS&T is slowly replacing those machines with Macs (I think with a Debathna VM of some sort on them), but I'm not fully in the loop there.
If SIPB folks want to talk to IS&T folks, I believe I can make the connection with the right people on the IS&T side.
From my standpoint, I think the two most useful short term tasks for Debathena are:
1) Fix the package, I'm blanking on which one it is, that FTBFS for bionic / 18.04 and makes debathena-login uninstallable there (without hackery)
2) Import new moira sources and rebuild moira, or possibly better, document the procedure for re-importing moira from upstream (I think that re-building is documented)
-- Jonathon
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, Jonathan Reed wrote:
> The flip side of this is that unless somebody did a bunch of work I
> don't know about, cluster is still Trusty. While it's true you can
> still install it, at some point, we'll be doing the community a
> disservice by letting them install an obsolete release of Debathena in
> a configuration which implies it's supported by IS&T.
>
> I am also equally as close to campus as Andrew, and happy to
> participate in a brain dump / training session some weekend. But I
> agree with Geoff, that I think it would be useful for current SIPB
> leadership / active members to reach out to IS&T and understand the
> 6-18 month roadmap for "Athena", including: IS&T-maintained clusters,
> DLC-maintained clusters, AFS, etc. I'm not sure how to start that
> conversation. Oliver Thomas has left IS&T, but is still at MIT, and
> is a good resource for finding out who to talk to.
>
> One of the key benefits of Debathena was that it was a ca-2009
> rethinking from the ground up of integrating the MIT environment into
> a modern Linux distribution. It did away with a lot of vestiges of
> Athena's history, while retaining core functionality. After 10
> years, I think it makes sense to re-evaluate that. For example, it's
> quite clear at this point that "sendbug" should be launched into the
> sun. Does the Kerberos/Hesiod dance still make sense, or should we
> pursue LDAP authentication instead? Is there any benefit in
> continuing to supporting AFS as a homedir, or should it just be a
> mountpoint? (Those are all questions new maintainers should ask
> themselves, they need not be answered in this thread).
>
> IS&T did not have the luxury of being able to make sweeping changes,
> because people would complain bitterly about any sort of change.
> SIPB is well positioned to be able to make sweeping changes and retire
> a lot of technical debt. (Which isn't to say that a lot of people
> won't come out of the woodwork and still bitterly complain about
> change, but I'd encourage the recipients of those complaints to break
> them down into categories of "current student", "current staff",
> "faculty", and "other").
>
> I'd love to see Debathena driven by current students who use it, but I
> think there's definitely a bootstrapping problem here. It's very hard
> to find students who have the necessary skills, free time, and
> motivation. Retiring a lot of the technical debt around
> debathena-workstation and debathena-cluster will likely help there.
>
> -Jon
>
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:44 AM andrew m. boardman <amb@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> There are still public debathena machines on campus, but I'm not sure
>> offhand of the detailed state of the clusters. (xcluster.mit.edu shows
>> some.) There's still community mindshare about it otherwise, though; I
>> know there are cluster-config machines scattered around student groups
>> and the like as well because I get pinged about maintaining them
>> occasionally, and the PXE installer still works.
>>
>> That seems to be something interesting and worth keeping, but I'm biased.
>> I am next to campus and willing to help people spin up though.
>>
>> andrew
>>
>> Geoffrey Thomas writes:
>>> I guess my question is, does it make sense to revive Debathena, or does it m=
>>> ake more sense to effectively start a new project with the same goals of "ac=
>>> cess Athena services from your non-IS&T-run Linux machine" and have that use=
>>> Debathena code where helpful?
>>>
>>> I'm certainly happy to help where I can be helpful, but, like, I don't even k=
>>> now if the clusters still exist, I don't think I'm the right person to say w=
>>> hat ought to be done with Debathena :)
>>>
>>> --=20
>>> Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)
>>> geofft@ldpreload.com
>>>
>>>> On Sep 18, 2019, at 00:36, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>> On further consideration, I don't think it makes sense for me to be part o=
>>> f composing this entry, since I'm not part of the project, so I'll leave the=
>>> rest of you to it.
>>>> =20
>>>> Here's the document to put your entry into, in case you haven't gotten the=
>>> link yet from elsewhere: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76=
>>> wZU5XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk
>>>> =20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Cel
>>>> =20
>>>> On Sep 18, 2019 00:09, Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@ldpreload.com> wrote:
>>>> Are students still interested in Debathena for personal machines? (Or woul=
>>> d there be more interest in Archathena or whatever people use these days?) W=
>>> e had Debathena as a SIPB-only project before any IS&T backing, and that was=
>>> largely driven by what OSes people were running themselves and what package=
>>> s they wanted - Kerberos and AFS config, Moira, printing and email back when=
>>> that was relevant, etc., but not login config quite as much. Ignore the ins=
>>> taller, ignore reactivate, etc.
>>>> =20
>>>> It might make sense as a first task/responsibility to figure out what part=
>>> s of Debathena people are interested in using, and focus on getting those bu=
>>> ilt for current Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc. releases, instead of planning to rev=
>>> ive Debathena as a whole.
>>>> =20
>>>> Are there other SIPB projects running Debian that need an up-to-date debat=
>>> hena-standard or -login? Are there dorm or lab servers that want debathena-l=
>>> ogin?
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)
>>>> geofft@ldpreload.com
>>>> =20
>>>> On Sep 17, 2019, at 23:40, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>> Are any of the current maintainers going to have the time to facilitate br=
>>> inging someone up to speed who doesn't expect to have to do most of the work=
>>> of bringing themself up to speed?
>>>> =20
>>>> If so, what do the requirements of someone to be a suitable candidate look=
>>> like to you?
>>>> =20
>>>> On Sep 17, 2019 23:34, Alex Chernyakhovsky <alex@achernya.com> wrote:
>>>> You're not going to get traction by telling students they need to "revive"=
>>> the project up front. Whether Debathena should be revived is a different is=
>>> sue as IS&T no longer has staff that work on it full time or use for it outs=
>>> ide of the dialups.
>>>> =20
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> -Alex
>>>> =20
>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:28 PM Cel Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>> Hi debathena maintainers,
>>>> =20
>>>> My current understanding is that the main thing we need to get
>>>> Debathena maintained by current students again (assuming that this is
>>>> what we want) is to find a current student with appropriate skills to
>>>> join the project and drive its revival, in the same way as what I've
>>>> been doing with Scripts.
>>>> =20
>>>> I wrote a suggested entry for the new SIPB project roles document, which
>>>> reads as follows:
>>>> =20
>>>> ** SIPB Debathena **
>>>> Contact: debathena@mit.edu
>>>> =20
>>>> Debathena is a long-established SIPB project that maintains the
>>>> operating system used by MIT=E2=80=99s athena clusters, and made available=
>>> for
>>>> installation on group and personal computers. Currently, it does not
>>>> have any students actively maintaining it, and is entirely maintained
>>>> by alumni in their copious free time.
>>>> =20
>>>> Roles:
>>>> * Project Reviver: work on becoming the first new student maintainer
>>>> of Debathena in the past few years, by coordinating with previous
>>>> maintainers, learning how the system works, dealing with code
>>>> improvements and bugfixes, and bringing new students up to speed.
>>>> * Prereqs: significant experience installing and using Linux,
>>>> significant experience with the Linux command line, previous
>>>> programming experience, strong communication skills, strong sense
>>>> of self-motivation
>>>> =20
>>>> ------
>>>> =20
>>>> Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you'd like me
>>>> to change? You are also welcome to throw this out entirely and put
>>>> whatever you want in the document; I'm suggesting this to try to make
>>>> sure we have something for Debathena.
>>>> =20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> ~ Cel
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>
>>> --Apple-Mail-8BF914E7-9664-4538-B49E-CB5FC70137A7
>>> Content-Type: text/html;
>>> charset=utf-8
>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>>
>>> <html><head>
>>> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></=
>>> head><body dir=3D"auto">I guess my question is, does it make sense to reviv=
>>> e Debathena, or does it make more sense to effectively start a new project =
>>> with the same goals of "access Athena services from your non-IS&T-=
>>> run Linux machine" and have that use Debathena code where helpful?<br>=
>>> <br>I'm certainly happy to help where I can be helpful, but, like, I don't =
>>> even know if the clusters still exist, I don't think I'm the right person t=
>>> o say what ought to be done with Debathena :)<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSi=
>>> gnature" dir=3D"ltr">-- <div>Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)</div><div><a=
>>> href=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a></div></div><=
>>> div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Sep 18, 2019, at 00:36, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <<a =
>>> href=3D"mailto:cela@mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><bloc=
>>> kquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
>>> <div>
>>> <div style=3D"" dir=3D"auto">On further consideration, I don't think it mak=
>>> es sense for me to be part of composing this entry, since I'm not part of t=
>>> he project, so I'll leave the rest of you to it.</div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D""><br>
>>> </div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Here's the document to put your entry into, in=
>>> case you haven't gotten the link yet from elsewhere: <a href=3D"https=
>>> ://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76wZU5XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/=
>>> edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76wZU5=
>>> XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk</a></div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D""><br>
>>> </div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Cheers,</div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Cel</div>
>>> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
>>> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sep 18, 2019 00:09, Geoffrey Thomas <<a hr=
>>> ef=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a>> wrote:<br t=
>>> ype=3D"attribution">
>>> <blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> <div dir=3D"auto">Are students still interested in Debathena for personal m=
>>> achines? (Or would there be more interest in Archathena or whatever people =
>>> use these days?) We had Debathena as a SIPB-only project before any IS&=
>>> T backing, and that was largely driven
>>> by what OSes people were running themselves and what packages they wanted =
>>> - Kerberos and AFS config, Moira, printing and email back when that was rel=
>>> evant, etc., but not login config quite as much. Ignore the installer, igno=
>>> re reactivate, etc.
>>> <div><br>
>>> </div>
>>> <div>It might make sense as a first task/responsibility to figure out what =
>>> parts of Debathena people are interested in using, and focus on getting tho=
>>> se built for current Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc. releases, instead of planning =
>>> to revive Debathena as a whole.</div>
>>> <div><br>
>>> </div>
>>> <div>Are there other SIPB projects running Debian that need an up-to-date d=
>>> ebathena-standard or -login? Are there dorm or lab servers that want debath=
>>> ena-login?</div>
>>> <div>
>>> <div>
>>> <div><br>
>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">--
>>> <div>Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)</div>
>>> <div><a href=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a></div>
>>> </div>
>>> <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
>>> On Sep 17, 2019, at 23:40, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <<a href=3D"mailto:cela@=
>>> mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> <br>
>>> </div>
>>> <blockquote>
>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">
>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
>>> <div>Are any of the current maintainers going to have the time to facilitat=
>>> e bringing someone up to speed who doesn't expect to have to do most of the=
>>> work of bringing themself up to speed?</div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
>>> </div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto">If so, what do the requirements of someone to be a suitab=
>>> le candidate look like to you?</div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto">
>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
>>> <div class=3D"elided-text">On Sep 17, 2019 23:34, Alex Chernyakhovsky <<=
>>> a href=3D"mailto:alex@achernya.com">alex@achernya.com</a>> wrote:<br typ=
>>> e=3D"attribution">
>>> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
>>> left:1ex">
>>> <div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto">You're not going to get traction by telling students they=
>>> need to "revive" the project up front. Whether Debathena should =
>>> be revived is a different issue as IS&T no longer has staff that work o=
>>> n it full time or use for it outside of the dialups.
>>> <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
>>> </div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto">Sincerely,</div>
>>> <div dir=3D"auto">-Alex</div>
>>> </div>
>>> <br>
>>> <div class=3D"elided-text">
>>> <div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:28 PM Cel Skeggs <<a href=3D"m=
>>> ailto:cela@mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> </div>
>>> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
>>> left:1ex">
>>> Hi debathena maintainers,<br>
>>> <br>
>>> My current understanding is that the main thing we need to get<br>
>>> Debathena maintained by current students again (assuming that this is<br>
>>> what we want) is to find a current student with appropriate skills to<br>
>>> join the project and drive its revival, in the same way as what I've<br>
>>> been doing with Scripts.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> I wrote a suggested entry for the new SIPB project roles document, which<br=
>>>>
>>> reads as follows:<br>
>>> <br>
>>> ** SIPB Debathena **<br>
>>> Contact: <a href=3D"mailto:debathena@mit.edu">debathena@mit.edu</a><br>
>>> <br>
>>> Debathena is a long-established SIPB project that maintains the<br>
>>> operating system used by MIT=E2=80=99s athena clusters, and made available =
>>> for<br>
>>> installation on group and personal computers. Currently, it does not<br>
>>> have any students actively maintaining it, and is entirely maintained<br>
>>> by alumni in their copious free time.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Roles:<br>
>>> * Project Reviver: work on becoming the first new student maintainer<=
>>> br>
>>> of Debathena in the past few years, by coordinating with previ=
>>> ous<br>
>>> maintainers, learning how the system works, dealing with code<=
>>> br>
>>> improvements and bugfixes, and bringing new students up to spe=
>>> ed.<br>
>>> * Prereqs: significant experience installing and using Linux,=
>>> <br>
>>> significant experience with the Linux command line, pr=
>>> evious<br>
>>> programming experience, strong communication skills, s=
>>> trong sense<br>
>>> of self-motivation<br>
>>> <br>
>>> ------<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you'd like me<br>
>>> to change? You are also welcome to throw this out entirely and put<br>
>>> whatever you want in the document; I'm suggesting this to try to make<br>
>>> sure we have something for Debathena.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> ~ Cel<br>
>>> </blockquote>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>> </blockquote>
>>> </div>
>>> <br>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>> </blockquote>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>> </blockquote>
>>> </div>
>>> <br>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>>
>>>
>>> </div></blockquote></body></html>=
>>>
>>> --Apple-Mail-8BF914E7-9664-4538-B49E-CB5FC70137A7--
