[16819] in athena10
Re: Debathena entry in the SIPB project roles document
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jonathan Reed)
Wed Sep 18 10:52:15 2019
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <201909181343.x8IDhcTO031875@outgoing.mit.edu>
From: Jonathan Reed <jdreed@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:51:26 -0400
Message-ID: <CADwaeHdNkGuPOSrYETtDy2F1rL-kro_nNu-Buu2Mo30+SkdsNg@mail.gmail.com>
To: "andrew m. boardman" <amb@mit.edu>
Cc: Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@ldpreload.com>,
Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu>,
Alex Chernyakhovsky <alex@achernya.com>, debathena <debathena@mit.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
The flip side of this is that unless somebody did a bunch of work I
don't know about, cluster is still Trusty. While it's true you can
still install it, at some point, we'll be doing the community a
disservice by letting them install an obsolete release of Debathena in
a configuration which implies it's supported by IS&T.
I am also equally as close to campus as Andrew, and happy to
participate in a brain dump / training session some weekend. But I
agree with Geoff, that I think it would be useful for current SIPB
leadership / active members to reach out to IS&T and understand the
6-18 month roadmap for "Athena", including: IS&T-maintained clusters,
DLC-maintained clusters, AFS, etc. I'm not sure how to start that
conversation. Oliver Thomas has left IS&T, but is still at MIT, and
is a good resource for finding out who to talk to.
One of the key benefits of Debathena was that it was a ca-2009
rethinking from the ground up of integrating the MIT environment into
a modern Linux distribution. It did away with a lot of vestiges of
Athena's history, while retaining core functionality. After 10
years, I think it makes sense to re-evaluate that. For example, it's
quite clear at this point that "sendbug" should be launched into the
sun. Does the Kerberos/Hesiod dance still make sense, or should we
pursue LDAP authentication instead? Is there any benefit in
continuing to supporting AFS as a homedir, or should it just be a
mountpoint? (Those are all questions new maintainers should ask
themselves, they need not be answered in this thread).
IS&T did not have the luxury of being able to make sweeping changes,
because people would complain bitterly about any sort of change.
SIPB is well positioned to be able to make sweeping changes and retire
a lot of technical debt. (Which isn't to say that a lot of people
won't come out of the woodwork and still bitterly complain about
change, but I'd encourage the recipients of those complaints to break
them down into categories of "current student", "current staff",
"faculty", and "other").
I'd love to see Debathena driven by current students who use it, but I
think there's definitely a bootstrapping problem here. It's very hard
to find students who have the necessary skills, free time, and
motivation. Retiring a lot of the technical debt around
debathena-workstation and debathena-cluster will likely help there.
-Jon
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 9:44 AM andrew m. boardman <amb@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> There are still public debathena machines on campus, but I'm not sure
> offhand of the detailed state of the clusters. (xcluster.mit.edu shows
> some.) There's still community mindshare about it otherwise, though; I
> know there are cluster-config machines scattered around student groups
> and the like as well because I get pinged about maintaining them
> occasionally, and the PXE installer still works.
>
> That seems to be something interesting and worth keeping, but I'm biased.
> I am next to campus and willing to help people spin up though.
>
> andrew
>
> Geoffrey Thomas writes:
> > I guess my question is, does it make sense to revive Debathena, or does it m=
> > ake more sense to effectively start a new project with the same goals of "ac=
> > cess Athena services from your non-IS&T-run Linux machine" and have that use=
> > Debathena code where helpful?
> >
> > I'm certainly happy to help where I can be helpful, but, like, I don't even k=
> > now if the clusters still exist, I don't think I'm the right person to say w=
> > hat ought to be done with Debathena :)
> >
> > --=20
> > Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)
> > geofft@ldpreload.com
> >
> > > On Sep 18, 2019, at 00:36, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
> > >=20
> > > On further consideration, I don't think it makes sense for me to be part o=
> > f composing this entry, since I'm not part of the project, so I'll leave the=
> > rest of you to it.
> > >=20
> > > Here's the document to put your entry into, in case you haven't gotten the=
> > link yet from elsewhere: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76=
> > wZU5XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk
> > >=20
> > > Cheers,
> > > Cel
> > >=20
> > > On Sep 18, 2019 00:09, Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@ldpreload.com> wrote:
> > > Are students still interested in Debathena for personal machines? (Or woul=
> > d there be more interest in Archathena or whatever people use these days?) W=
> > e had Debathena as a SIPB-only project before any IS&T backing, and that was=
> > largely driven by what OSes people were running themselves and what package=
> > s they wanted - Kerberos and AFS config, Moira, printing and email back when=
> > that was relevant, etc., but not login config quite as much. Ignore the ins=
> > taller, ignore reactivate, etc.
> > >=20
> > > It might make sense as a first task/responsibility to figure out what part=
> > s of Debathena people are interested in using, and focus on getting those bu=
> > ilt for current Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc. releases, instead of planning to rev=
> > ive Debathena as a whole.
> > >=20
> > > Are there other SIPB projects running Debian that need an up-to-date debat=
> > hena-standard or -login? Are there dorm or lab servers that want debathena-l=
> > ogin?
> > >=20
> > > --=20
> > > Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)
> > > geofft@ldpreload.com
> > >=20
> > > On Sep 17, 2019, at 23:40, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
> > >=20
> > > Are any of the current maintainers going to have the time to facilitate br=
> > inging someone up to speed who doesn't expect to have to do most of the work=
> > of bringing themself up to speed?
> > >=20
> > > If so, what do the requirements of someone to be a suitable candidate look=
> > like to you?
> > >=20
> > > On Sep 17, 2019 23:34, Alex Chernyakhovsky <alex@achernya.com> wrote:
> > > You're not going to get traction by telling students they need to "revive"=
> > the project up front. Whether Debathena should be revived is a different is=
> > sue as IS&T no longer has staff that work on it full time or use for it outs=
> > ide of the dialups.
> > >=20
> > > Sincerely,
> > > -Alex
> > >=20
> > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:28 PM Cel Skeggs <cela@mit.edu> wrote:
> > > Hi debathena maintainers,
> > >=20
> > > My current understanding is that the main thing we need to get
> > > Debathena maintained by current students again (assuming that this is
> > > what we want) is to find a current student with appropriate skills to
> > > join the project and drive its revival, in the same way as what I've
> > > been doing with Scripts.
> > >=20
> > > I wrote a suggested entry for the new SIPB project roles document, which
> > > reads as follows:
> > >=20
> > > ** SIPB Debathena **
> > > Contact: debathena@mit.edu
> > >=20
> > > Debathena is a long-established SIPB project that maintains the
> > > operating system used by MIT=E2=80=99s athena clusters, and made available=
> > for
> > > installation on group and personal computers. Currently, it does not
> > > have any students actively maintaining it, and is entirely maintained
> > > by alumni in their copious free time.
> > >=20
> > > Roles:
> > > * Project Reviver: work on becoming the first new student maintainer
> > > of Debathena in the past few years, by coordinating with previous
> > > maintainers, learning how the system works, dealing with code
> > > improvements and bugfixes, and bringing new students up to speed.
> > > * Prereqs: significant experience installing and using Linux,
> > > significant experience with the Linux command line, previous
> > > programming experience, strong communication skills, strong sense
> > > of self-motivation
> > >=20
> > > ------
> > >=20
> > > Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you'd like me
> > > to change? You are also welcome to throw this out entirely and put
> > > whatever you want in the document; I'm suggesting this to try to make
> > > sure we have something for Debathena.
> > >=20
> > > Cheers,
> > > ~ Cel
> > >=20
> > >=20
> >
> > --Apple-Mail-8BF914E7-9664-4538-B49E-CB5FC70137A7
> > Content-Type: text/html;
> > charset=utf-8
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > <html><head>
> > <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></=
> > head><body dir=3D"auto">I guess my question is, does it make sense to reviv=
> > e Debathena, or does it make more sense to effectively start a new project =
> > with the same goals of "access Athena services from your non-IS&T-=
> > run Linux machine" and have that use Debathena code where helpful?<br>=
> > <br>I'm certainly happy to help where I can be helpful, but, like, I don't =
> > even know if the clusters still exist, I don't think I'm the right person t=
> > o say what ought to be done with Debathena :)<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSi=
> > gnature" dir=3D"ltr">-- <div>Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)</div><div><a=
> > href=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a></div></div><=
> > div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Sep 18, 2019, at 00:36, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <<a =
> > href=3D"mailto:cela@mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><bloc=
> > kquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <div dir=3D"auto">
> > <div>
> > <div style=3D"" dir=3D"auto">On further consideration, I don't think it mak=
> > es sense for me to be part of composing this entry, since I'm not part of t=
> > he project, so I'll leave the rest of you to it.</div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D""><br>
> > </div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Here's the document to put your entry into, in=
> > case you haven't gotten the link yet from elsewhere: <a href=3D"https=
> > ://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76wZU5XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/=
> > edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kq1h2vR4bmNd76wZU5=
> > XVbbWpA1maplb54TZy_DmgrN8/edit?usp=3Ddrivesdk</a></div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D""><br>
> > </div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Cheers,</div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"">Cel</div>
> > <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
> > <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sep 18, 2019 00:09, Geoffrey Thomas <<a hr=
> > ef=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a>> wrote:<br t=
> > ype=3D"attribution">
> > <blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
> > solid;padding-left:1ex">
> > <div dir=3D"auto">Are students still interested in Debathena for personal m=
> > achines? (Or would there be more interest in Archathena or whatever people =
> > use these days?) We had Debathena as a SIPB-only project before any IS&=
> > T backing, and that was largely driven
> > by what OSes people were running themselves and what packages they wanted =
> > - Kerberos and AFS config, Moira, printing and email back when that was rel=
> > evant, etc., but not login config quite as much. Ignore the installer, igno=
> > re reactivate, etc.
> > <div><br>
> > </div>
> > <div>It might make sense as a first task/responsibility to figure out what =
> > parts of Debathena people are interested in using, and focus on getting tho=
> > se built for current Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/etc. releases, instead of planning =
> > to revive Debathena as a whole.</div>
> > <div><br>
> > </div>
> > <div>Are there other SIPB projects running Debian that need an up-to-date d=
> > ebathena-standard or -login? Are there dorm or lab servers that want debath=
> > ena-login?</div>
> > <div>
> > <div>
> > <div><br>
> > <div dir=3D"ltr">--
> > <div>Geoffrey Thomas (via mobile)</div>
> > <div><a href=3D"mailto:geofft@ldpreload.com">geofft@ldpreload.com</a></div>
> > </div>
> > <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
> > On Sep 17, 2019, at 23:40, Cel Andromeda Skeggs <<a href=3D"mailto:cela@=
> > mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > </div>
> > <blockquote>
> > <div dir=3D"ltr">
> > <div dir=3D"auto">
> > <div>Are any of the current maintainers going to have the time to facilitat=
> > e bringing someone up to speed who doesn't expect to have to do most of the=
> > work of bringing themself up to speed?</div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
> > </div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto">If so, what do the requirements of someone to be a suitab=
> > le candidate look like to you?</div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto">
> > <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
> > <div class=3D"elided-text">On Sep 17, 2019 23:34, Alex Chernyakhovsky <<=
> > a href=3D"mailto:alex@achernya.com">alex@achernya.com</a>> wrote:<br typ=
> > e=3D"attribution">
> > <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
> > left:1ex">
> > <div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto">You're not going to get traction by telling students they=
> > need to "revive" the project up front. Whether Debathena should =
> > be revived is a different issue as IS&T no longer has staff that work o=
> > n it full time or use for it outside of the dialups.
> > <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
> > </div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto">Sincerely,</div>
> > <div dir=3D"auto">-Alex</div>
> > </div>
> > <br>
> > <div class=3D"elided-text">
> > <div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:28 PM Cel Skeggs <<a href=3D"m=
> > ailto:cela@mit.edu">cela@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> > </div>
> > <blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
> > left:1ex">
> > Hi debathena maintainers,<br>
> > <br>
> > My current understanding is that the main thing we need to get<br>
> > Debathena maintained by current students again (assuming that this is<br>
> > what we want) is to find a current student with appropriate skills to<br>
> > join the project and drive its revival, in the same way as what I've<br>
> > been doing with Scripts.<br>
> > <br>
> > I wrote a suggested entry for the new SIPB project roles document, which<br=
> > >
> > reads as follows:<br>
> > <br>
> > ** SIPB Debathena **<br>
> > Contact: <a href=3D"mailto:debathena@mit.edu">debathena@mit.edu</a><br>
> > <br>
> > Debathena is a long-established SIPB project that maintains the<br>
> > operating system used by MIT=E2=80=99s athena clusters, and made available =
> > for<br>
> > installation on group and personal computers. Currently, it does not<br>
> > have any students actively maintaining it, and is entirely maintained<br>
> > by alumni in their copious free time.<br>
> > <br>
> > Roles:<br>
> > * Project Reviver: work on becoming the first new student maintainer<=
> > br>
> > of Debathena in the past few years, by coordinating with previ=
> > ous<br>
> > maintainers, learning how the system works, dealing with code<=
> > br>
> > improvements and bugfixes, and bringing new students up to spe=
> > ed.<br>
> > * Prereqs: significant experience installing and using Linux,=
> > <br>
> > significant experience with the Linux command line, pr=
> > evious<br>
> > programming experience, strong communication skills, s=
> > trong sense<br>
> > of self-motivation<br>
> > <br>
> > ------<br>
> > <br>
> > Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Is there anything you'd like me<br>
> > to change? You are also welcome to throw this out entirely and put<br>
> > whatever you want in the document; I'm suggesting this to try to make<br>
> > sure we have something for Debathena.<br>
> > <br>
> > Cheers,<br>
> > ~ Cel<br>
> > </blockquote>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> > </blockquote>
> > </div>
> > <br>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> > </blockquote>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> > </blockquote>
> > </div>
> > <br>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> > </div>
> >
> >
> > </div></blockquote></body></html>=
> >
> > --Apple-Mail-8BF914E7-9664-4538-B49E-CB5FC70137A7--
