[11277] in Commercialization & Privatization of the Internet
Re: Options (was Re: What is an "Internet reseller"?)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Karl Denninger)
Mon Mar 28 07:38:05 1994
From: karl@mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
To: stpeters@dawn.crd.ge.com
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 11:28:22 -0600 (CST)
Cc: karl@mcs.com, com-priv@psi.com
In-Reply-To: <9403270202.AA04651@swan-song.> from "Dick St.Peters" at Mar 26, 94 09:02:25 pm
> >Is this debate really about whether or not you have a right to <take>
> >something of value (my routing capability to and from my customers and
> >others) without MCSNet having the right to insist on payment in some form
> >that we <mutually> agree on (in kind, in money, or in gratitude) for
> >that service? Do you, as a customer, say, of Alternet, have the right to
> >dictate to <my> company the terms on which I must route your traffic?
>
> Let me turn the question around on you. Do you have the right to block
> traffic to your paying customers for any reason other than at their
> request?
A "right"? If it does not violate any outstanding contractual agreement,
certainly I have that right.
> If you believe the answer to that is yes, then the Internet is broken.
> We have independent fragilely-connected pieces of what could be an Internet.
If you believe that <any> provider thinks the answer is "no" then you are
seriously mistaken.
For if you believe that, then you have a <right> to buy a connection from
PSI and sell SLIP accounts, or even dedicated connections. You have a
"right" to peer your routers with theirs. Try that sometime and see what
Marty thinks about it. After all, you have a right to full interconnectivity
on your terms, rather than those you negotiate with PSI, no?
> There are only two possible states: 1) every provider is selling
> guaranteed connectivity to every Internet customer, or 2) no provider
> is selling guaranteed connectivity to every Internet customer.
>
> If the private sector can only come up with #2, we will wind up with
> regulated utilities providing #1
Why do you think this?
What makes you think you have a <right> to impose on what is a private
contractual matter between providers and customers? Where the hell do
you get off, Dick? Talk about arrogance!
Read the contract you get from PSI or ANS sometime. Then tell me what you
think you're buying. NOWHERE in any of those agreements, nor in MCSNet's,
will you find a guarantee of connectivity to all "Internet" customers.
That is because such a guarantee is <impossible> to provide.
> Karl, you had best get over the notion that if you don't like what
> Alternet is letting its customers do then you can take it out on your
> own customers.
No, you had best get over the notion that you, or anyone else, has a
right to interfere in the details of private commerce and contract between
MCSNet and its customers, or Alternet and theirs, or PSI and theirs.
Internet access is NOT a right. It is a privately negotiated contractual
matter between provider and customer. What we have in our contract, and
what kind of assurance we give to our customers, is between <US> and <THEM>.
Not between you and MCSNet, unless you wish to be a customer of ours. Then
you can either accept our terms and conditions, including whatever assurances
we choose to provide, or shop elsewhere.
The free market has a wonderful way of deciding whether or not the <actions>
of the players are to their benefit or not. Its called revenue.
I do not believe for one second that I can <force> connectivity to providers
that are not CIX members or direct customers of CIX members. I do not make
any such representation to my customers, as I have <no> enforcement
mechanism available to me in that regard. To make such a representation
would be FRAUD.
Likewise, anyone who is NOT a member of the CIX has <NO> right to imply or
state that they can <force> connectivity from their customers to MCSNet or
its customers, or to other CIX members, unless they have negotiated such
connectivity with the respective provider. Digex, as an example, has ZERO
right to tell their customers that they have a "right" to talk to MCSNet
customers -- unless they negotiate some agreement with us (or join the CIX).
That is <ALSO> FRAUD. You are promising something you have <no> right to,
and in fact no way to compel the delivery of.
The CIX provides a framework under which you can obtain the guarantee of
universal connectivity <without> settlements. That is the entire POINT
of the CIX.
As the CIX has <proven>, you do NOT need a regulated utility model, with
attendant tariffs and prices overseen by governments, in order to obtain
interconnectivity. You just need companies that feel it is in their best
interest to cooperate, and a set of rules under which they do cooperate.
That's what the CIX provides, and that is why MCSNet is a member.
--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.COM) | MCSNet - Full Internet Connectivity (shell,
Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | PPP, SLIP and more) in Chicago and 'burbs.
Voice/FAX: [+1 312 248-8649] | Email "info@mcs.com". MCSNet is a CIX member.
