[26511] in resnet
Re: NAC solution removal
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Boland, Jordan)
Tue Jun 14 11:47:20 2011
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Message-ID: <648355A0EA9BCE4C8E867D496C8F41B54AC5670E@Abel.stmartin.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:47:02 +0000
Reply-To: Resnet Forum <RESNET-L@listserv.nd.edu>
From: "Boland, Jordan" <JBoland@stmartin.edu>
To: RESNET-L@listserv.nd.edu
In-Reply-To: <4DF7725C.5010901@wmich.edu>
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Gaurav,
There are a few reasons why we decided to remove this completely. In no pa=
rticular order:
The NAC is simply unnecessary given other tools that are available. This a=
ppliance was purchased primary due to the Blaster virus outbreak. Since th=
at time, operating systems are much more secure by default, users are more =
educated about Internet risks (if only marginally), and the attack vector h=
as changed. The purpose of the NAC truly is to protect the /network infras=
tructure/ and /the institution/, not necessarily the student. The fact tha=
t a student has updated virus definitions is a side effect of the strategy =
employed to protect the network. I don't want to give the impression that =
I don't want my students to be protected from virus threats, but I see my c=
harter as providing good advice, and then allowing them to make their own m=
istakes (so long as it does not put my equipment at risk).
I am the first network specialist at this institution, and I have a large m=
ess to clean up....over the years, the network here wasn't so much "designe=
d" as it was "grown". Without going into too much detail, I am in the midd=
le of a top-to-bottom re-engineering. The NAC is installed on the 'legacy'=
network, but I need a solution for our new network while I build it out. =
I can homebrew our 802.1X/RADIUS/DVA just as easily as I could reconfigure =
the NAC for the new environment, but what would I do in the meantime? I st=
ill need to manage both networks.
I need(/desire) to deploy 802.1X/RADIUS anyway for wireless and VPN access.=
Adding DVA and a client registration portal is low-hanging fruit. I'm ex=
cited about the synergy with so many systems running on the same (open) ser=
vers, with one management interface.
The user experience with the NAC is abysmal. We hired a new CIO right abou=
t the time that I started, and the reports that he heard from students as w=
ell as his own experience with the NAC resulted in his mandating that somet=
hing be done with it. He doesn't like the client software required, as dow=
nloading, installing, and running it proves troublesome for many of our stu=
dents. It fails classification more often than we would like. I don't lik=
e the client software much either.
The management experience (at least that we experience here) is abysmal. T=
he web interface leaves many things to be desired, not the least of which i=
s a UI design that was.....I think 'designed' is the word I am looking for.=
It is awful. The number of screens it takes to get to the port managemen=
t view is outrageous. This is exacerbated by the fact that we manually fli=
p VLANs more than we should have to. Our ports get stuck in incorrect VLAN=
s sometimes, which is probably caused by the fact that the infrastructure m=
anagement paradigm is backwards. That isn't Bradford's fault. Our switche=
s are so ancient that they cannot poll the controller for dynamic port conf=
iguration, so instead the controller logs into switches individually and re=
configures ports as events are triggered. Icky. Obviously these switches =
are being replaced to support the new system.
Our NAC isn't EOL yet, but that day is near. When we started thinking abou=
t replacing this device, we talked with Impulse Point about their product. =
The cost was ~$30,000 for the client policy enforcement, plus some new har=
dware that we needed. The problem was, their product as spec'ed only enfor=
ces policies on the clients: who has what antivirus, make sure they don't =
have P2P software installed, etc. etc. It didn't have any way of doing dyn=
amic VLAN assignment. Anyway, I was told that it is easy to build their sy=
stem on top of an 802.1X/RADIUS/DVA infrastructure. ..... After building=
the same deployment that I had proposed, pay and additional $30,000 to enf=
orce client policies, despite my stated belief that it is unnecessary? Than=
ks, but no. This experience ended our desire to look at other vendors.
-Jordan
From: Resnet Forum [mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of GD
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 7:38 AM
To: RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: NAC solution removal
Jordan,
If I may ask, why are you getting rid of the Bradford NAC?
Gaurav Dave
Network Programmer
Western Michigan University
Office of Information Technology
Phone: 269-387-5468
--
On 6/14/2011 10:35 AM, Boland, Jordan wrote:
My last institution didn't employ a NAC, but instead used a homebrew client=
registration system to help keep order. MAC addresses were registered int=
o a database, and VMPS was used to assign machines to the correct VLAN when=
they connected. Machines showing 'interesting' behavior or subject to a p=
olicy sanction were either assigned to a jail VLAN or ignored completely (s=
witchport can be disabled remotely via VMPS as well).
At SMU, we are in the process of removing our Bradford NAC and replacing it=
with a system similar to the one described above. Because we are not a ci=
sco shop (and VMPS is deprecated) we are employing 802.1x MAC address authe=
ntication and dynamic VLAN assignment via RADIUS. The system is designed t=
o be a full-campus solution, but could be deployed to ResNet only if desire=
d.
At this time, all proof-of-concept and integration tests have been complete=
d, and I am in the process of finishing the management scripts and registra=
tion user interface. Notes and code can be made available to any intereste=
d parties.
As far as why we are doing this, I find the cost of implementing the NAC is=
too much considering what we get out of it. While the 802.1X/RADIUS/DVA s=
olution does not provide me with the same level of control that the NAC doe=
s, it also doesn't require the client software that seems to degrade our us=
er experience so much. I want to be able to identify a machine on a networ=
k as belonging to a particular student, and take enforcement measures if ne=
cessary. Since this provides me with a big "Internet kill switch" on each =
machine, it works well enough for my purposes.
-Jordan
Network Administrator
Saint Martin's University
5300 Pacific Ave SE
Lacey, WA 98503-7500
(360) 486-8838
jboland@stmartin.edu<mailto:jboland@stmartin.edu>
From: Resnet Forum [mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael P=
Hizny
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 5:29 AM
To: RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU<mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU>
Subject: NAC solution removal
After having a NAC solution in place for the last 8 years, we are re-evalua=
ting whether or not we really need to support a solution of this type anymo=
re. Have any other Universities done, or considered removing their NAC sol=
ution?
Michael Hizny
Binghamton Univeristy
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he ResNet-L mailing list.
To subscribe, unsubscribe or search the archives, go to http://LISTSERV.ND.=
EDU/archives/resnet-l.html ________________________________________________=
___
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Gaurav,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There are a few reasons w=
hy we decided to remove this completely. In no particular order:<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The NAC is simply unneces=
sary given other tools that are available. This appliance was purchas=
ed primary due to the Blaster virus outbreak. Since that time,
operating systems are much more secure by default, users are more educated=
about Internet risks (if only marginally), and the attack vector has chang=
ed. The purpose of the NAC truly is to protect the /network infrastru=
cture/ and /the institution/, not necessarily
the student. The fact that a student has updated virus definitions i=
s a side effect of the strategy employed to protect the network. I do=
n’t want to give the impression that I don’t want my students t=
o be protected from virus threats, but I see my charter
as providing good advice, and then allowing them to make their own mistake=
s (so long as it does not put my equipment at risk).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am the first network sp=
ecialist at this institution, and I have a large mess to clean up….ov=
er the years, the network here wasn’t so much “designed” =
as it
was “grown”. Without going into too much detail, I am in=
the middle of a top-to-bottom re-engineering. The NAC is installed o=
n the ‘legacy’ network, but I need a solution for our new netwo=
rk while I build it out. I can homebrew our 802.1X/RADIUS/DVA just
as easily as I could reconfigure the NAC for the new environment, but what=
would I do in the meantime? I still need to manage both networks.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I need(/desire) to deploy=
802.1X/RADIUS anyway for wireless and VPN access. Adding DVA and a c=
lient registration portal is low-hanging fruit. I’m excited
about the synergy with so many systems running on the same (open) servers,=
with one management interface.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The user experience with =
the NAC is abysmal. We hired a new CIO right about the time that I st=
arted, and the reports that he heard from students as well as
his own experience with the NAC resulted in his mandating that something b=
e done with it. He doesn’t like the client software required, a=
s downloading, installing, and running it proves troublesome for many of ou=
r students. It fails classification more often
than we would like. I don’t like the client software much eith=
er.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The management experience=
(at least that we experience here) is abysmal. The web interface lea=
ves many things to be desired, not the least of which is a UI
design that was…..I think ‘designed’ is the word I am lo=
oking for. It is awful. The number of screens it takes to get t=
o the port management view is outrageous. This is exacerbated by the =
fact that we manually flip VLANs more than we should have to. Our
ports get stuck in incorrect VLANs sometimes, which is probably caused by =
the fact that the infrastructure management paradigm is backwards. Th=
at isn’t Bradford’s fault. Our switches are so ancient th=
at they cannot poll the controller for dynamic port configuration,
so instead the controller logs into switches individually and reconfigures=
ports as events are triggered. Icky. Obviously these switches =
are being replaced to support the new system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Our NAC isn’t EOL y=
et, but that day is near. When we started thinking about replacing th=
is device, we talked with Impulse Point about their product. The cost
was ~$30,000 for the client policy enforcement, plus some new hardware tha=
t we needed. The problem was, their product as spec’ed only enf=
orces policies on the clients: who has what antivirus, make sure they=
don’t have P2P software installed, etc. etc. It
didn’t have any way of doing dynamic VLAN assignment. Anyway, =
I was told that it is easy to build their system on top of an 802.1X/RADIUS=
/DVA infrastructure. ….. After building the same de=
ployment that I had proposed, pay and additional $30,000 to enforce
client policies, despite my stated belief that it is unnecessary? Thanks, =
but no. This experience ended our desire to look at other vendors.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-Jordan<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif=
";color:windowtext"> Resnet Forum [mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>GD<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 14, 2011 7:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: NAC solution removal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jordan, <br>
<br>
If I may ask, why are you getting rid of the Bradford NAC?<br>
<br>
Gaurav Dave<br>
Network Programmer<br>
Western Michigan University<br>
Office of Information Technology<br>
Phone: 269-387-5468<br>
<tt><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">--</span></tt><br>
<br>
On 6/14/2011 10:35 AM, Boland, Jordan wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">My last institution didn’t employ=
a NAC, but instead used a homebrew client registration system to help keep=
order. MAC addresses were registered into a database, and VMPS
was used to assign machines to the correct VLAN when they connected. =
Machines showing ‘interesting’ behavior or subject to a policy=
sanction were either assigned to a jail VLAN or ignored completely (switch=
port can be disabled remotely via VMPS as well).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">At SMU, we are in the process of removi=
ng our Bradford NAC and replacing it with a system similar to the one descr=
ibed above. Because we are not a cisco shop (and VMPS is
deprecated) we are employing 802.1x MAC address authentication and dynamic=
VLAN assignment via RADIUS. The system is designed to be a full-camp=
us solution, but could be deployed to ResNet only if desired.</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">At this time, all proof-of-concept and =
integration tests have been completed, and I am in the process of finishing=
the management scripts and registration user interface.
Notes and code can be made available to any interested parties.</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">As far as why we are doing this, I find=
the cost of implementing the NAC is too much considering what we get out o=
f it. While the 802.1X/RADIUS/DVA solution does not provide
me with the same level of control that the NAC does, it also doesn’t=
require the client software that seems to degrade our user experience so m=
uch. I want to be able to identify a machine on a network as belongin=
g to a particular student, and take enforcement
measures if necessary. Since this provides me with a big “Inte=
rnet kill switch” on each machine, it works well enough for my purpos=
es.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">-Jordan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">Network Administrator</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">Saint Martin's University</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">5300 Pacific Ave SE</span><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">Lacey, WA 98503-7500</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">(360) 486-8838</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif""><a href=3D"mailto:jboland@stmartin.edu"=
>jboland@stmartin.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Resnet F=
orum [<a href=3D"mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU">mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.=
ND.EDU</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael P Hizny<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 14, 2011 5:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND.EDU">RESNET-L@LISTSERV.ND=
.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> NAC solution removal</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif"">After having a NAC solution in place fo=
r the last 8 years, we are re-evaluating whether or not we really need to s=
upport a solution of this type anymore. Have any other
Universities done, or considered removing their NAC solution?</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Michael Hizny</span></i>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Binghamton Univeristy</s=
pan></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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