[1344] in UA Senate
Re: Thoughts on MIT Online from Senate Meeting
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Daniel Hawkins)
Tue May 3 14:42:10 2011
Reply-To: hwkns@MIT.EDU
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=4Eh6dKuG0uVYc4uqRncDKjZw6-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 14:42:06 -0400
From: Daniel Hawkins <hwkns@MIT.EDU>
To: Timothy Robertson <tim_r@mit.edu>
Cc: Jessica Chen <jessicachen.dbhs@gmail.com>,
Michael E Plasmeier <theplaz@mit.edu>, mit-online@mit.edu,
"ua-senate@mit.edu" <ua-senate@mit.edu>
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Hi all,
Thanks for speaking up. I did get the feeling that students were
uncomfortable with the idea of risking MIT's brand (and thereby risking the
value of their own degrees that they've gone through Hell to earn). From
what I have observed, this feeling is also shared among the faculty
(remember, they're the ones who refuse to give honorary degrees no matter
what). So there isn't much to worry about there. If the faculty decide to
move forward (and it is their decision), they will do so in a way that
doesn't threaten the MIT brand. There are lots of ideas on how to do this;
here's one that we came up with in the student study group, inspired by
Google Labs:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/871/Beta.docx
I think you guys are projecting your own assumptions onto the committee whe=
n
you say things like, "what was suggested could be offered by anyone." Very
intentionally, nothing specific was actually suggested. You are filling in
the details with things you already know about, and of course those are
going to fit into the mold of what other schools are doing. Perhaps the
presentation should have focused more on the ideas we've generated so far,
but Prof. Yue didn't want to bias or constrain your feedback. It looks lik=
e
that kind of back-fired.
I encourage you to think more about the topic, and to share your thoughts
with the list, and to consider joining the new UA Committee on Technology.
I also hope you will separate facts from assumptions, especially when it
comes to what is possible. Most students probably believe that online
education cannot achieve the level of quality and rigor of on-campus
education, or that social and academic interaction among students would be
impossible online. But is that really the case? Are we ready to say that,
because University of Phoenix hasn't produced a top-ranked engineering
school, online education is a useless concept for MIT? If you want to
innovate, challenging your assumptions is the first step.
-hwkns
On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Timothy Robertson <tim_r@mit.edu> wrote:
> I feel the same as Jessica. I do not want our suggestion to be mistaken a=
s
> an approval of the online system, rather it is an option should the progr=
am
> be pushed forward.
>
> Additionally, it concerns me that MIT is now following the rest of the
> colleges in a fashion not representative of an Institute working towards
> progressive changes. It would seem we are rather opting to fit into the m=
old
> other schools are implementing.
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Jessica Chen <jessicachen.dbhs@gmail.com=
>wrote:
>
>> Hi Hi!
>>
>> I don't think the students who were in chambers that night were
>> necessarily stating they WANTED a separate brand. At least that's not wh=
at I
>> got away from it. I feel that they were just saying if MIT was to contin=
ue
>> pursuing an online system, they would prefer it to be a separate brand. =
I do
>> remember they did say that doing nothing was an option, I think students
>> just got a bit wrapped up in what was proposed that night that they felt=
the
>> need to protect the MIT name and therefore, suggested the separate brand=
.
>> Just my thought! :D
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> ~Jessica Chen
>> MIT 2014
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 1:16 AM, Michael E Plasmeier <theplaz@mit.edu>wro=
te:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My name is Michael Plasmeier, I am a sophomore in 15 and 6-2. I was at
>>> the Online Study Group presentation to the UA Senate last week and I wa=
nted
>>> to comment on what I had heard. Sorry this is not on the nice sheet of =
blue
>>> hardstock.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems that the only way this would be possible/students (who were at
>>> the meeting) would be comfortable with this is if it was a separate
>>> organization =96 which did not pull away from campus resources. I thin=
k all
>>> campus resources from faculty to grad students to undergrads are strain=
ed at
>>> capacity for what they are able to do. It was suggested that the onlin=
e
>>> program would be staffed with its own team of lecturers, who would be f=
unded
>>> by revenue from the program. No one spent much time talking about onli=
ne
>>> activities inside the traditional academic structure - for students not=
yet
>>> affiliated with MIT through traditional means.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In addition, most of the students were in favor of giving it a separate
>>> brand name to distinguish it from the =93real=94 experience. Another s=
tudent
>>> then commented that many of MIT=92s classes cannot be easily put online=
. Only
>>> content based classes, 18.03 was offered as an example, could easily be=
put
>>> online. Much of the value of an MIT education are the other students =
=96
>>> which you don=92t get online. In addition, MIT=92s motto is =93Mind an=
d Hand.=94
>>> The latter part is hard online.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, after thinking about it, what was suggested, can be offered by
>>> anyone. The material is out there, granted the curriculum at MIT might=
be
>>> slightly better (though we give that away via OCW), but what would this
>>> MIT-owned side division add? A better crop of adjuncts vs other progra=
ms?
>>> Curriculum not on OCW? And this division would be asked to break even =
=96
>>> which very few educational programs do. This would put serious constra=
ints
>>> on the program. I have serious doubts that MIT could run a division wh=
ere
>>> there is pressure to =93break even=94 without it feeling like a profit-=
minded
>>> venture, like many online schools. It seems to me that we are just try=
ing
>>> to increase revenue or scale for the Institute. We should have a
>>> competitive advantage =96 that is not our brand name.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As what was described is a separate division, with a separate brand,
>>> teaching generic content-based classes, I just don=92t see the need for=
it.
>>> MIT should not try to aim to increase its scale unless it is able to do=
it
>>> in a unique way. You might have had something you were not willing to =
share
>>> quite yet, but from what I hard at the meeting, I do not see a compelli=
ng
>>> reason for MIT to offer what I just described.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Michael Plasmeier
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Tim Robertson II
> MIT 2011
> Mechanical Engineering
> UA Senate Office Hours:
> EC-B515 Sunday 5-8pm
>
>
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Hi all,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for speaking up. =A0I did get the feeling=
that students were uncomfortable with the idea of risking MIT's brand =
(and thereby risking the value of their own degrees that they've gone t=
hrough Hell to earn). =A0From what I have observed, this feeling is also sh=
ared among the faculty (remember, they're the ones who refuse to give h=
onorary degrees no matter what). =A0So there isn't much to worry about =
there. =A0If the faculty decide to move forward (and it is their decision),=
they will do so in a way that doesn't threaten the MIT brand. =A0There=
are lots of ideas on how to do this; here's one that we came up with i=
n the student study group, inspired by Google Labs:</div>
<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://dl.dropbox.com/u/871/Beta.docx" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/871/Beta.docx</a></div><div><br></div>=
<div>I think you guys are projecting your own assumptions onto the committe=
e when you say things like, "what was suggested could be offered by an=
yone." =A0Very intentionally, nothing specific was actually suggested.=
=A0You are filling in the details with things you already know about, and =
of course those are going to fit into the mold of what other schools are do=
ing. =A0Perhaps the presentation should have focused more on the ideas we&#=
39;ve generated so far, but Prof. Yue didn't want to bias or constrain =
your feedback. =A0It looks like that kind of back-fired.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I encourage you to think more about the topic, and to s=
hare your thoughts with the list, and to consider joining the new UA Commit=
tee on Technology. =A0I also hope you will separate facts from assumptions,=
especially when it comes to what is possible. =A0Most students probably be=
lieve that online education cannot achieve the level of quality and rigor o=
f on-campus education, or that social and academic interaction among studen=
ts would be impossible online. =A0But is that really the case? =A0Are we re=
ady to say that, because University of Phoenix hasn't produced a top-ra=
nked engineering school, online education is a useless concept for MIT? =A0=
If you want to innovate, challenging your assumptions is the first step.</d=
iv>
<div><br></div><div>-hwkns</div><div><br></div>
<div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Timothy Rob=
ertson <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:tim_r@mit.edu" target=3D"_bl=
ank">tim_r@mit.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I feel the same as Jessica. I do not want our suggestion to be mistaken as =
an approval of the online system, rather it is an option should the program=
be pushed forward. <br><br>Additionally, it concerns me that MIT is now fo=
llowing the rest of the colleges in a fashion not representative of an Inst=
itute working towards progressive changes. It would seem we are rather opti=
ng to fit into the mold other schools are implementing. <br>
<div><div></div><div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Jessica Che=
n <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:jessicachen.dbhs@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jessicachen.dbhs@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Hi!<br><br>I don't think the students who were in chambers that nigh=
t were necessarily stating they WANTED a separate brand. At least that'=
s not what I got away from it. I feel that they were just saying if MIT was=
to continue pursuing an online system, they would prefer it to be a separa=
te brand. I do remember they did say that doing nothing was an option, I th=
ink students just got a bit wrapped up in what was proposed that night that=
they felt the need to protect the MIT name and therefore, suggested the se=
parate brand. Just my thought! :D<br>
<br clear=3D"all">Sincerely,<br><font color=3D"#888888">~Jessica Chen<br>MI=
T 2014</font><div><div></div><div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 1:16 AM, Michael =
E Plasmeier <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:theplaz@mit.edu" target=
=3D"_blank">theplaz@mit.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">Hello,</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">My name =
is Michael Plasmeier, I am a sophomore in 15 and 6-2.=A0 I was at the Onlin=
e Study Group presentation to the UA Senate last week and I wanted to comme=
nt on what I had heard. Sorry this is not on the nice sheet of blue hardsto=
ck.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It seems that the only=
way this would be possible/students (who were at the meeting) would be com=
fortable with this is if it was a separate organization =96 which did not p=
ull away from campus resources.=A0 I think all campus resources from facult=
y to grad students to undergrads are strained at capacity for what they are=
able to do.=A0 It was suggested that the online program would be staffed w=
ith its own team of lecturers, who would be funded by revenue from the prog=
ram.=A0 No one spent much time talking about online activities inside the t=
raditional academic structure - for students not yet affiliated with MIT th=
rough traditional means.=A0 </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition, most of t=
he students were in favor of giving it a separate brand name to distinguish=
it from the =93real=94 experience.=A0 Another student then commented that =
many of MIT=92s classes cannot be easily put online.=A0 Only content based =
classes, 18.03 was offered as an example, could easily be put online.=A0 Mu=
ch of the value of an MIT education are the other students =96 which you do=
n=92t get online.=A0 In addition, MIT=92s motto is =93Mind and Hand.=94=A0 =
The latter part is hard online.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, after thinkin=
g about it, what was suggested, can be offered by anyone.=A0 The material i=
s out there, granted the curriculum at MIT might be slightly better (though=
we give that away via OCW), but what would this MIT-owned side division ad=
d?=A0 A better crop of adjuncts vs other programs?=A0 Curriculum not on OCW=
?=A0 And this division would be asked to break even =96 which very few educ=
ational programs do.=A0 This would put serious constraints on the program.=
=A0 I have serious doubts that MIT could run a division where there is pres=
sure to =93break even=94 without it feeling like a profit-minded venture, l=
ike many online schools.=A0 It seems to me that we are just trying to incre=
ase revenue or scale for the Institute.=A0 We should have a competitive adv=
antage =96 that is not our brand name.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">As what was described =
is a separate division, with a separate brand, teaching generic content-bas=
ed classes, I just don=92t see the need for it.=A0 MIT should not try to ai=
m to increase its scale unless it is able to do it in a unique way.=A0 You =
might have had something you were not willing to share quite yet, but from =
what I hard at the meeting, I do not see a compelling reason for MIT to off=
er what I just described.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">Michael Plasmeier</p></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br></div></div><font =
color=3D"#888888">-- <br>Tim Robertson II<br>MIT 2011<br>Mechanical Enginee=
ring<br>UA Senate Office Hours:<br>EC-B515 Sunday 5-8pm<br><br>
<div style=3D"padding:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px;overflow:hidden;wo=
rd-wrap:break-word;color:black;font-size:10px;text-align:left;line-height:1=
30%">
</div>
</font></blockquote></div><br></div>
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