[94401] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: Network end users to pull down 2 gigabytes a day, continuously?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Alexander Harrowell)
Sun Jan 21 14:42:19 2007
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:41:12 +0000
From: "Alexander Harrowell" <a.harrowell@gmail.com>
To: "Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org>
Cc: "North American Noise and Off-topic Gripes" <nanog@merit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <005e01c73d8d$329c84f0$6801a8c0@atlanta.polycom.com>
Errors-To: owner-nanog@merit.edu
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Sprunk:
> > It's a nice idea to collect popularity data at the ISP level, because
> > the decision on what to load into the local torrent servers could be
> > automated.
>
> Note that collecting popularity data could be done at the edges without
> forcing all tracker requests through a transparent proxy.
Yes. This is my point. It's a good thing to do, but centralising it is an
ungood thing to do, because...
> Once torrent X reaches a certain trigger level of popularity, the
> > local
> > server grabs it and begins serving, and the local-pref function on the
> > clients finds it. Meanwhile, we drink coffee. However, it's a
> > potential
> > DOS magnet - after all, P2P is really a botnet with a badge.
>
> I don't see how. If you detect that N customers are downloading a
> torrent, then having the ISP's peer download that torrent and serve it
> to the customers means you consume 1/N upstream bandwidth. That's an
> anti-DOS :)
All true. My point is that forcing all tracker requests through a proxy
makes that machine an obvious DDOS target. It's got to have an open
interface to all hosts on your network on one side, and to $world on the
other, and if it goes down, then everyone on your network loses service. And
you're expecting traffic distributed over a large number of IP addresses
because it's a P2P application, so distinguishing normal traffic from a
botnet attack will be hard.
> And the point of a topology-aware P2P client is that it seeks the
> > nearest host, so if you constrain it to the ISP local server only,
> > you're
> > losing part of the point of P2P for no great saving in
> > peering/transit.
>
> That's why I don't like the idea of transparent proxies for P2P; you can
> get 90% of the effect with 10% of the evilness by setting up sane
> rate-limits.
OK.
> As long as they don't interfere with the user's right to choose
> > someone
> > else's content, fine.
>
> If you're getting it from an STB, well, there may not be a way for users
> to add 3rd party torrents; how many users will be able to figure out how
> to add the torrent URLs (or know where to find said URLs) even if there
> is an option? Remember, we're talking about Joe Sixpack here, not
> techies.
>
> You would, however, be able to pick whatever STB you wanted (unless ISPs
> deliberately blocked competitors' services).
Please. Joe has a right to know these things. How long before Joe finds out
anyway?
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Sprunk:<br><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">> It's a nice idea to collect popularity data at the ISP level, because
<br>> the decision on what to load into the local torrent servers could be<br>> automated.<br><br>Note that collecting popularity data could be done at the edges without<br>forcing all tracker requests through a transparent proxy.
</blockquote><div><br>Yes. This is my point. It's a good thing to do, but centralising it is an ungood thing to do, because... <br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
> Once torrent X reaches a certain trigger level of popularity, the<br>> local<br>> server grabs it and begins serving, and the local-pref function on the<br>> clients finds it. Meanwhile, we drink coffee. However, it's a
<br>> potential<br>> DOS magnet - after all, P2P is really a botnet with a badge.<br><br>I don't see how. If you detect that N customers are downloading a<br>torrent, then having the ISP's peer download that torrent and serve it
<br>to the customers means you consume 1/N upstream bandwidth. That's an<br>anti-DOS :)</blockquote><div><br>All true. My point is that forcing all tracker requests through a proxy makes that machine an obvious DDOS target. It's got to have an open interface to all hosts on your network on one side, and to $world on the other, and if it goes down, then everyone on your network loses service. And you're expecting traffic distributed over a large number of IP addresses because it's a P2P application, so distinguishing normal traffic from a botnet attack will be hard.
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">> And the point of a topology-aware P2P client is that it seeks the<br>> nearest host, so if you constrain it to the ISP local server only,
<br>> you're<br>> losing part of the point of P2P for no great saving in<br>> peering/transit.<br><br>That's why I don't like the idea of transparent proxies for P2P; you can<br>get 90% of the effect with 10% of the evilness by setting up sane
<br>rate-limits.</blockquote><div><br>OK. <br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">> As long as they don't interfere with the user's right to choose
<br>> someone<br>> else's content, fine.<br><br>If you're getting it from an STB, well, there may not be a way for users<br>to add 3rd party torrents; how many users will be able to figure out how<br>to add the torrent URLs (or know where to find said URLs) even if there
<br>is an option? Remember, we're talking about Joe Sixpack here, not<br>techies.<br><br>You would, however, be able to pick whatever STB you wanted (unless ISPs<br>deliberately blocked competitors' services).</blockquote>
<div><br>Please. Joe has a right to know these things. How long before Joe finds out anyway?<br></div></div><br>
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