[92228] in North American Network Operators' Group
RE: [Fwd: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Daniel Golding)
Mon Sep 11 14:59:26 2006
From: "Daniel Golding" <dgolding@tier1research.com>
To: "'joe mcguckin'" <joe@via.net>, <nanog@merit.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:45:58 -0400
In-reply-to: <3C727F46-E6A8-443A-9A85-18B4C9AD985C@via.net>
Errors-To: owner-nanog@merit.edu
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Joe makes a good point. Everyone is shouting "no one owns IP addresses", but
that is proof by assertion. Yelling louder doesn't make it so. Neither does
ARIN's assertions or their policies. What would establish IP addresses as
some sort of ARIN-owned and licensed community property? Well, winning a
court case like this, or congress passing a law. Frankly, those who want
ARIN's ownership of IP addresses to be established, should hope Kremens put
on a good case here, to establish a nice solid precedent.
Who cares about when CIDR came out? It was background information and not
really material to the case.
Kremens was the victim of a very nasty fraud. People are acting like he's a
bad guy, when, in fact, he was a victim of one of the worst cases of domain
hijacking, and his original case is one that we rely on for protection
today.
There is a strong argument to be made for ownership of IP addressing and
subsequently trading address space as a commodity, with ARIN as a commodity
exchange and clearinghouse.
Is this reaction people hating lawyers more than ARIN, or what?
- Daniel Golding
_____
From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of joe
mcguckin
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 1:37 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
I read the complaint. I don't like the fact that a lot of my friends are
named in the suit, but I think there are some
points worth discussing within the community:
1) IP address blocks are not 'property'
"Domains are not property. The assignee of a domain has no ownership
interest"
Network Solutions made this same argument years ago. That was their shield
against lawsuits when negligence
(or worse) on NetSols part would cause a domain to be erroneously
transferred. When mistakes were made,
Network Solutions was notoriously unwilling to reverse the transaction to
correct the error.
Then they got sued for refusing to reverse a fradulent domain transfer, and
they lost. The case had the side effect of setting
the precedent that domains *are* in fact tangible property. Now when a
registrar or registry makes a mistake, they can be
legally held responsible. (What case was that? Kremen v. Network Solutions)
I would say that's an improvement.
2) Why does ARIN believe that it can ignore a court order?
3) What's wrong with treating assignments like property and setting up a
market to buy and sell them? There's plenty of precedent for this:
Mineral rights, mining claims, Oil and gas leases, radio spectrum.
If a given commodity is truly scarce, nothing works as good as the free
market in encouraging consumers to conserve and make the best
use of it.
Joe McGuckin
ViaNet Communications
joe@via.net
650-207-0372 cell
650-213-1302 office
650-969-2124 fax
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Joe makes a good point. Everyone is
shouting “no one owns IP addresses”, but that is proof by
assertion. Yelling louder doesn’t make it so. Neither does =
ARIN’s assertions
or their policies. What would establish IP addresses as some sort of =
ARIN-owned
and licensed community property? Well, winning a court case like this, =
or congress
passing a law. Frankly, those who want ARIN’s ownership of IP =
addresses
to be established, should hope Kremens put on a good case here, to =
establish a
nice solid precedent. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Who cares about when CIDR came out? =
It was
background information and not really material to the case. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kremens was the victim of a very =
nasty
fraud. People are acting like he’s a bad guy, when, in fact, he =
was a
victim of one of the worst cases of domain hijacking, and his original =
case is
one that we rely on for protection today. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There is a strong argument to be =
made for
ownership of IP addressing and subsequently trading address space as a
commodity, with ARIN as a commodity exchange and clearinghouse. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Is this reaction people hating =
lawyers
more than ARIN, or what?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>- Daniel =
Golding<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>joe mcguckin<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, September =
08, 2006
1:37 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> nanog@merit.edu<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fwd: Kremen =
VS Arin
Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I read the complaint. I don't like the fact that a lot of my =
friends
are named in the suit, but I think there are =
some<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>points worth discussing within the =
community:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>1) IP address blocks are not =
'property'<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div><span style=3D'border-spacing: 0px =
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2;word-spacing:0px'><span
style=3D'border-spacing: 0px =
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<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>"Domains=
are not
property. The assignee of a domain has no ownership =
interest"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Network =
Solutions
made this same argument years ago. That was their shield against =
lawsuits when
negligence<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>(or worse) =
on NetSols
part would cause a domain to be erroneously transferred. When mistakes =
were
made,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Network =
Solutions was
notoriously unwilling to reverse the transaction to correct the =
error.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Then they =
got sued
for refusing to reverse a fradulent domain transfer, and they lost. The =
case
had the side effect of setting <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>the =
precedent that
domains *are* in fact tangible property. Now when a registrar or =
registry makes
a mistake, they can be <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>legally held
responsible. (What case was that? Kremen v. Network =
Solutions)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>I would say =
that's an
improvement.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>2) Why does =
ARIN
believe that it can ignore a court order?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>3) What's =
wrong with
treating assignments like property and setting up a market to buy and =
sell
them? There's plenty of precedent for this:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Mineral =
rights,
mining claims, Oil and gas leases, radio spectrum. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>If a given =
commodity
is truly scarce, nothing works as good as the free market in encouraging
consumers to conserve and make the best <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>use of =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>Joe =
McGuckin<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>ViaNet =
Communications<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><a
href=3D"mailto:joe@via.net">joe@via.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>650-207-0372 =
cell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>650-213-1302 =
office<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'>650-969-2124 =
fax<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </=
o:p></span></font></p>
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style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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</span></span>
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